Brightline Trains

[spenser1058]

If the actual agenda of this had been to move people from South Florida to Orlando, they never would have chosen a route through the Treasure Coast. The goal all along was to leverage real estate along the FECRR tracks. Since the costs associated make it impractical for use by locals, they see no advantage to it. If I lived in that area, I might protest as well. Just like with SunRail, this was never about transit. People who have nothing to gain and everything to lose understandably tend to protest.

[metal93]

1 hour ago, alex said:

Right after posting my comment I came across this article over lunch:

Bill could put brakes on Orlando-to-Miami rail plans
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-orlando-miami-rail-service-20170314-story.html

Couple interesting tidbits:

• Phase II: "The company plans to run at speeds up to 79 mph between Miami and West Palm Beach. When the northern route is opened, Brightline trains are expected to travel up to 110 mph from Jupiter to Cocoa and then at 125 mph to Orlando." 
   
• Future Phases: "Roberts added that the regulations threaten the company's plans to expand to Orlando and could hinder future connections to Tampa and Jacksonville."
   
• "The measure also would require private passenger rail to cover the costs of installing and maintaining safety technology at crossings unless such contracts are agreed to by local governments...During her presentation to the committee, Mayfield twice said 'All Aboard Florida' before correcting herself to say 'any high-speed rail company' while explaining that Florida East Coast Industries currently is contracted to pass on repair costs to local governments."

I think the opposition is still trying hard to spin their stance as being fiscally conservative. But, realistically, the railroad is being nice by letting public roads cross their tracks, so I don't totally agree that the railroad should have to pay for the safety of public roads crossing their properties. 

On a general note, I would've definitely preferred the federally funded HSR option. The cronyism that went into making AAF happen left a bad taste in my mouth. But, now that we're here, let's make this happen. If people want to complain about public costs, safety, or cultural changes, they need to get some more substantial arguments. 

Good points. I find issue with hypocritical people that say "let the private sector do it" but then turn against it and cry to their government to do something when the private sector actually does it. You can't have your cake and eat it. There might just be powerful lobbying groups associated with automobile manufacturers and oil companies pushing a massive campaign against high speed rail, similar to the one that killed passenger rail in the US decades ago. I've seen fearmongering about increased noise levels, lowered property values, increase of train accidents, passing on costs to the local government and taxpayers, and even blatantly false claims that it would be bad for the environment. I think its just pure NIMBYism for many people, they simply don't want to see new development and more traffic in their quiet little community. There is probably only one or two legitimate reasons why someone would oppose Brightline - there are a lot of retirees in little communities along the coasts and I can understand the concerns that Brightline could fuel development of luxury condos and price them out of their homes and community, doubly so especially since Brightline's parent company FEC has shown interest in developing their property along the stations. Having said this, I'm in full support of Brightline and can't wait for it to reach Orlando.

I'm going to have to disagree with federally funded/operated rail though. Though I was rooting for HSR to Tampa and was upset when Governor Scott killed it, maybe in hindsight it wasn't that bad now that I'm seeing how CAHSR in California is playing out with its massive cost overruns and general government inefficiency, even though I'm still opposed to toll lanes and would have preferred rail in the median of I-4. Our own Amtrak, the laughingstock of national railways in the developed world, is considering privatization, and it may be for the better too. I do very much like how the Japanese do rail, and would like to see at least some sort of emulation in the US in my lifetime, and their railways are privatized.

[alex]

1 hour ago, metal93 said:

I think its just pure NIMBYism for many people, they simply don't want to see new development and more traffic in their quiet little community.

That's another point of hypocrisy I see in opponents' arguments. Per Hank's bunny argument:

"No federal funds for high-speed rail!" OK, we'll go private. 
"We want stations in our communities!" No, slows down our train. 
"Then we don't want new development in our communities!" OK, not happening without stations.
"Think of the traffic!" Dude, nobody's building anything without a station. (Not to mention that transit reduces traffic.) 
"Safety!!" OK, you're in charge of safety improvements.
"No! Too expensive!!"

I mean, I understand that you don't want to invest in safe road crossings for a railroad you don't get much out of. But a lot of the tracks are currently in use, so how much will really go into this "safety technology at crossings"? Is it enough to hold back the entire state's future transportation network?
 

1 hour ago, metal93 said:

I'm going to have to disagree with federally funded/operated rail though. Though I was rooting for HSR to Tampa and was upset when Governor Scott killed it, maybe in hindsight it wasn't that bad now that I'm seeing how CAHSR in California is playing out with its massive cost overruns and general government inefficiency, even though I'm still opposed to toll lanes and would have preferred rail in the median of I-4. 

I hear ya. In hindsight, Brightline is the better option for Florida. It's been implemented relatively smoothly (compared to CA at least), relatively quickly (compared to SunRail), has high-profile destinations (Miami, Ft. Lauderdale), and was tied to some cool urban infill development (especially in downtown Miami). With the current transit in Miami, Ft. Lauderdale's upcoming "Wave" streetcar, and Orlando's potential SunRail/lightrail connection, three of the four proposed station have decent transit options connecting directly to Brightline, which is exciting. Plus, it leaves the I-4 median available for local rail, like a lightrail route from downtown to I-Drive. 

I haven't heard much on the privatization of Amtrak, which could be interesting. Germany's Deutsche Bahn mostly privatized a few years back and seems to have been the right choice. They're still able to provide most of their service under "DB" branding and service, making it feel like a cohesive system, which is what I would hope for national rail in the US eventually. 
 

2 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

If the actual agenda of this had been to move people from South Florida to Orlando, they never would have chosen a route through the Treasure Coast. The goal all along was to leverage real estate along the FECRR tracks. Since the costs associated make it impractical for use by locals, they see no advantage to it. If I lived in that area, I might protest as well. Just like with SunRail, this was never about transit. People who have nothing to gain and everything to lose understandably tend to protest.

I agree to an extent (see above), but it's like the old argument "Why should my property taxes fund schools if I don't have kids?"

[jack]

Texas is going through this now. The difference is they need to acquire land where Flagler does not. I never would have guessed these "conservative" residents would try and sabotage privately funded rail. I understand their concerns, but a lot of it is thin. They do not personally benefit so they want to stop it at all costs.

[codypet]

23 hours ago, alex said:

A friend who worked on the project told me a while back that the company was registering the "All Aboard" name for all 50 states, e.g. All Aboard Florida, All Aboard Georgia, etc. It definitely seemed like Brightline is only the first route or leg of a larger system. Basically, it sounds like All Aboard will run routes like "Brightline" the way Amtrak runs routes like "Silver Star" and "Silver Meteor." 

The legal friction is getting on my nerves. At the risk of generalizing, I feel like those who are against the train a) didn't want the government to fund the Orlando-Tampa high-speed rail and/or b) are all for private sector business and property rights. People need to decide if they want to support government projects and have a say in them, or leave it to the will of the private sector. But you can't push everything on the private sector and then complain about them using their own land how they want to use it. 

That was the plan very very early on, but that's since waned and the goal is just completing Phase 2.

20 hours ago, alex said:

Right after posting my comment I came across this article over lunch:

Bill could put brakes on Orlando-to-Miami rail plans
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/os-orlando-miami-rail-service-20170314-story.html

Couple interesting tidbits:

• Phase II: "The company plans to run at speeds up to 79 mph between Miami and West Palm Beach. When the northern route is opened, Brightline trains are expected to travel up to 110 mph from Jupiter to Cocoa and then at 125 mph to Orlando." 
   
• Future Phases: "Roberts added that the regulations threaten the company's plans to expand to Orlando and could hinder future connections to Tampa and Jacksonville."
   
• "The measure also would require private passenger rail to cover the costs of installing and maintaining safety technology at crossings unless such contracts are agreed to by local governments...During her presentation to the committee, Mayfield twice said 'All Aboard Florida' before correcting herself to say 'any high-speed rail company' while explaining that Florida East Coast Industries currently is contracted to pass on repair costs to local governments."

I think the opposition is still trying hard to spin their stance as being fiscally conservative. But, realistically, the railroad is being nice by letting public roads cross their tracks, so I don't totally agree that the railroad should have to pay for the safety of public roads crossing their properties. 

On a general note, I would've definitely preferred the federally funded HSR option. The cronyism that went into making AAF happen left a bad taste in my mouth. But, now that we're here, let's make this happen. If people want to complain about public costs, safety, or cultural changes, they need to get some more substantial arguments. 

There had been talk about legally ending crossing agreements if those counties wanted to push as hard as they are.  So far they didn't.

Edited March 16, 2017 by codypet

[Dale]

Could Orlando end up with a $1.3-billion ... bus terminal ?

[spenser1058]

Oh, but what a bus terminal!

[jrs2]

NIMBYism along the coastal communities is out of control, from tall condos on the beach, to other developments that perceivably affect their status quo.  The working people are at work while the NIMBYs attend these meetings and protest.

Brevard wanted a station near the proximity of either Melbourne or Port Canaveral for obvious reasons.  But it makes sense...why should the county agree to let it go through if the system doesn't benefit the county?  I don't know whether those two counties south of there made similar demands that were rejected.

I think Rick Scott knew ahead of time from FEC about their plan, and they convinced him to reject the HSR money.  The timing was way too close.  So, Scott ended up looking like a fiscal and economic guru because the reasons he enunciated for rejecting the HSR money proved him right when FEC later announced their plan only a few months after that.

I would say that FEC was directly responsible for the HSR money being rejected.  Follow the money; follow the timing of it all.

[aent]

5 hours ago, jrs2 said:

NIMBYism along the coastal communities is out of control, from tall condos on the beach, to other developments that perceivably affect their status quo.  The working people are at work while the NIMBYs attend these meetings and protest.

Brevard wanted a station near the proximity of either Melbourne or Port Canaveral for obvious reasons.  But it makes sense...why should the county agree to let it go through if the system doesn't benefit the county?  I don't know whether those two counties south of there made similar demands that were rejected.

I think Rick Scott knew ahead of time from FEC about their plan, and they convinced him to reject the HSR money.  The timing was way too close.  So, Scott ended up looking like a fiscal and economic guru because the reasons he enunciated for rejecting the HSR money proved him right when FEC later announced their plan only a few months after that.

I would say that FEC was directly responsible for the HSR money being rejected.  Follow the money; follow the timing of it all.

Its an interesting theory and surely feasible. If we have to pick one, honestly, I'd pick brightline. Its a better route imo, and hey, no taxpayer dollars is better.

[jrs2]

I read that article again.  I don't like what they're trying to do to stifle this.

[HankStrong]

http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2017/03/29/group-vows-to-continue-pushing-proposed-law-aimed.html

 

"Brent Hanlon, chairman of the Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida coalition, said he was disappointed that the subcommittee didn't debate the bill yesterday, which he said is aimed at protecting citizens from subsidizing high-speed rail projects that pose risks to public safety"

 

RIGHT... public safety!  RIGHT!

[metal93]

With a name like "Citizens Against Rail Expansion in Florida" you can clearly tell they're all about "public safety" and totally not about obstructing rail simply because they hate trains or secretly have other reasons that aren't defensible on their own.

Edited March 31, 2017 by metal93
This post is sarcasm, by the way

[jrs2]

If my house abutted train tracks, I'd be ticked off too.  And I wouldn't be worried about the public good and benefits to Miami and Orlando tourism either.  Someone's reasons are their reasons.  I don't know what the litmus test for "defensible" would be in this case.

But, I don't live along that route; I live in Orlando, and I want this train up and running.  If it went up the Fla TNPK corridor we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Too bad it didn't go up the I-95 median instead.

The problem with that Bill was that it did target FEC and the Brightline system.

[aent]

2 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

If my house abutted train tracks, I'd be ticked off too.  And I wouldn't be worried about the public good and benefits to Miami and Orlando tourism either.  Someone's reasons are their reasons.  I don't know what the litmus test for "defensible" would be in this case.

But, I don't live along that route; I live in Orlando, and I want this train up and running.  If it went up the Fla TNPK corridor we wouldn't be having this discussion.  Too bad it didn't go up the I-95 median instead.

The problem with that Bill was that it did target FEC and the Brightline system.

But none of the new tracks are adjacent to any existing houses, are they? For those on existing tracks, they are already carrying frieght, and these trains should be quieter and much quicker then the existing ones, which has the potential to decrease their current impact. If you bought a house on a railroad track, you have no right to be pissed that the owner of the railroad utilizes his property.

[jliv]

(I'm going to get political for a moment, so if you don't like someone expressing their personal opinion, then move on...)

I read Alan Greenspan's memoirs in 2007, and a couple of things stuck with me about him and his philosophy.  First, he was REALLY CLOSE to Ayn Rand.  Don't really need to go into the tenets of her "objectivist" philosophy, but suffice to say it says a lot about his thinking as an economist. Second, he expressed a view in his book that government's primary role was to "protect private property", which is a very conservative/libertarian view.  It largely fits with the mindset of the residents and officials in Martin, St. Lucie, and Indian River counties (largely Republican) who are creating roadblocks for this project.  They are using government and the civil court system to protect the values of their property, as there is a belief amongst them that increased railroad traffic will degrade their quality of life, and thus, the value of their homes.  Selfish interests always come first.

However, within a year of the book being released, as we all know, the banking sector was on the verge of collapse due to many of his policies and the lack of regulation and oversight in the investment banking sector that had degraded over the latter part of the 20th century.  Guess who had to step in for the public good to prevent a devastating, worldwide financial collapse? The federal government, with its massive bailout negotiated by both outgoing president George W. Bush and incoming president Barack Obama.  So, it showed that government has an added goal of looking after the public good, balancing individual interests with the greater quality of life for the community.  It kinds made Alan Greenspan look very misguided, in hindsight.

(OK, BACK ON TOPIC NOW) I'm struck by how hands-off the Rick Scott administration and the FDOT has been on this.  There are plenty of things the FDOT could do to help protect the public interest along the route.  For one thing, taking leadership with progressing the Tri-Rail Coastal Link project and extending it by putting stations in the counties north of Palm Beach County would go a long way in counteracting the "quality of life" impacts the residents are perceiving.  It wouldn't make everyone happy, but the local officials funding the myriad of lawsuits would welcome the economic benefits of commuter rail.  Therefore, the market-driven strategy of All Aboard Florida would be enhanced by government help in boosting the state benefits of the project.  Anyhow, they've already sunk 300M into the Orlando "multi-modal" station.  They keep saying the station was already in the long-term plans for the airport, but I'm calling a "fig a fig and a trough a though".  It was clearly to benefit the All Aboard Florida project.  One would think that providing compromises to bring all parties to the table would be the best option to move forward, right?

But this is Rick Scott, who rode the Tea Party/Freedom Caucus into Tallahassee.  Just another example of how businessmen don't necessarily make good political leaders, who have to work to build consensus to get anything done.  Ask his buddy Orange-Dude-in-the-White-House how that "business acumen" is working out for him.

OK, back to all the fun musings about Florida development...

[jrs2]

^^

Well, GOAA is a big winner with AAF b/c they negotiated it so that 8 of the 12 trains would be based on GOAA property.  Also, the Intermodal station for AAF had a vision purpose to have a future link to Sunrail, which benefited Orlando and FDOT.  Further, RIcks Cott said no to the HSR money from Obama's HSR Initiative coincidentally close in time to FEC's announcement of their HSR plan, which, nobody in a million years would have ever predicted especially in this state.  Which means, he knew about it before nixing the HSR plan and money.  He almost nixed Sunrail too, but I think that was a feigned attempt which merely resulting in a six month delay.

On political leaders, I don't know what the definition of a good one entails.  Politics is crap.  Politicians are crap for the most part.  Orange-Dude-in-the-White-House is surrounded by snakes whose existence was exposed by him during his campaign.  This country is doomed, but at least Florida gets an HSR system as a consolation.

[Boomer136]

My first experience with NIMBYs was when I was a percussion instructor for a local high school. 

Did these people NOT see the HS next to their homes? At a certain point the question has to be asked who was there first. 

[HankStrong]

This same thing is currently happening in East Orlando.  The dump smells like a dump and people are mad because they bought OR BUILT a house next to the dump and it smells like a dump.  Said dump having been there insanely longer than any of the houses.

Same concept with the train.  That track has been there for 100 years.  Trains have been going on it for the entire time.  You bought near the train, they didn't randomly invent the train to personally taunt you.

Edited April 3, 2017 by HankStrong

[jrs2]

^^

..."they didn't randomly invent the train to personally taunt you."  That's the funniest thing I've read in a long time.

[dcluley98]

Article on the Sentinel that the Hyperloop is looking at Orlando-Miami as one of 11 possible choices.  

"Hyperloop One met policymakers and transportation experts in Washington D.C. on Thursday, where it introduced 11 routes that had been pitched.

These include one that would travel the 257 miles between Orlando and Miami in roughly 26 minutes."

I know it is kinda Sci-Fi Pipe Dream at this time (pun intended), but that would be freaking awesome!

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/technology/os-bz-cfb-column-041017-story.html

[jrs2]

^^

I would so ride that.  26 min is right up my alley.  That's so sci-fi; transport tubes.

[metal93]

Hyperloop is such a pipe dream that it makes maglev look reasonable by comparison. I mean, it's a cool idea but I just don't see it happening for a few decades at least. What might be more beneficial in the future is that FEC considers eventually electrifying the Brightline route and maybe 20 years down the line replace the diesel trainsets with electric ones (there are many benefits to this - mainly that it's not as polluting and electric trains can accelerate faster and have a higher top speed than diesel engines can produce). I think they should also consider grade-separating the whole route, removing the railroad crossings by making the railroad go under or over wherever the tracks cross a road. That's a big reason why the trains aren't able to run as fast as they could - at-grade crossings just create too much liability.

[nite owℓ]

Imagine getting stuck inside one of those and having to wait for the fire dept to find you

[Jernigan]

10 hours ago, nite owℓ said:

Imagine getting stuck inside one of those and having to wait for the fire dept to find you

If they happens they send a surge of air to push you out the other end.   A move known as the hyperpoop 

[dcluley98]

HAHAHAHA, Nice one Jernigan.  I keep imagining myself in a bank tube from the 80s when I see these hyperloop videos.  Except with more techno and happiness.