Brightline Trains

[codypet]

It would originate from MCO.

[spenser1058]

3 minutes ago, codypet said:

It would originate from MCO.

It would, however, have to go back to Cocoa and head north in order to stay on FEC tracks.

(Which, of course, is one of the many ironies here - for over 40 years, FEC refused to allow Amtrak to contract for its tracks, forcing users to travel on the longer, interior route to access South Florida from Jacksonville)

Edited June 24, 2019 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

3 hours ago, codypet said:

It would originate from MCO.

this actually ensures that the MCO intermodal station will be the hub for the entire state; MCO to Miami; MCO to Jax; MCO to Tampa, etc.  And I am curious how the maintenance facility will operate if and when future lines open up, in that, will it also be the maintenance facility for Jax trains and Tampa trains?

3 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

It would, however, have to go back to Cocoa and head north in order to stay on FEC tracks.

(Which, of course, is one of the many ironies here - for over 40 years, FEC refused to allow Amtrak to contract for its tracks, forcing users to travel on the longer, interior route to access South Florida from Jacksonville)

and this would tack onto the trip another 90 or so miles (Jax to Miamai (unless you are going from Tampa to Jax)).

[codypet]

4 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

this actually ensures that the MCO intermodal station will be the hub for the entire state; MCO to Miami; MCO to Jax; MCO to Tampa, etc.  And I am curious how the maintenance facility will operate if and when future lines open up, in that, will it also be the maintenance facility for Jax trains and Tampa trains?

and this would tack onto the trip another 90 or so miles (Jax to Miamai (unless you are going from Tampa to Jax)).

I assume you'll see Orlando as the main maintenance facility with smaller satellite facilities in Tampa and Jax similar to how there's currently one in WPB.  Likewise Sunrail has a Poincianna yard that supplements the Sanford one.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

Personally, I'm much more interested in the Tampa leg as I have 0 ties to Miami. (Also don't like the place)

 

 

[Uncommon]

48 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

Personally, I'm much more interested in the Tampa leg as I have 0 ties to Miami. (Also don't like the place)

 

 

Same. Sodom and Gomorrah with a view 

[HankStrong]

It's a really great view, though.  For sooo many reasons.

[spenser1058]

Universal Parks and Resorts chief Tom Williams noted in  today’s EPIC press conference that they would use “every bit of strength we have” to lobby for a Virgin stop at OCCC (which is adjacent to Uni’s new park):

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/attractions/universal-orlando/os-bz-universal-epic-universe-orlando-20190801-h3544ln2rzcxdnhkax2rixawxu-story.html

From the Sentinel 

[jrs2]

16 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Universal Parks and Resorts chief Tom Williams noted in  today’s EPIC press conference that they would use “every bit of strength we have” to lobby for a Virgin stop at OCCC (which is adjacent to Uni’s new park):

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/attractions/universal-orlando/os-bz-universal-epic-universe-orlando-20190801-h3544ln2rzcxdnhkax2rixawxu-story.html

From the Sentinel 

THANK YOU!!!!!

I think this whole forum should pitch in to help Tom with this lobbying effort.  It's a sin that the line would bypass the OCCC completely anyway; it's unforgiveable.  This route proposal really has to be completely revisited

[gibby]

What's the story about the Beachline improvements not being designed to accommodate rail (nearest I-4)?  I remember reading about it a few months ago but it just seemed too dumb to be possible.  Does anyone have any background info about that?

[Urban Mail Carrier]

27 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

THANK YOU!!!!!

I think this whole forum should pitch in to help Tom with this lobbying effort.  It's a sin that the line would bypass the OCCC completely anyway; it's unforgiveable.  This route proposal really has to be completely revisited

I agree. That’s why I’ve always said that our political leaders need to do their job. Either have Virgin trains stop at the sites that we really need OR if not then work out an agreement where Sunrail is permitted to use the tracks so that we can provide that service. If Virgin doesn’t build those stops then Sunrail can build those stops instead. Thus no longer depending on Virgin. In the end we have everything Virgin needs. Use that as leverage. Maybe even pointing up some money to increase that leverage.

[codypet]

There's no train without Disney.  There's no Disney buy-in with other stops in the tourist district.   This is the same song as the old FLHSR.  Rail corridor isn't part of the equation long SR 528 anymore.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Well with Universal announcing a new theme park in the International Drive area there well definitely be a need for Transit. 25 K workers and on top of that tourists attending the park, where will we or how will we accommodate the onset of traffic? 

[jliv]

4 minutes ago, codypet said:

There's no train without Disney.  There's no Disney buy-in with other stops in the tourist district.   This is the same song as the old FLHSR.  Rail corridor isn't part of the equation long SR 528 anymore.

I disagree.  The options illustrated in Brightline's unsolicited FDOT bid for a Tampa connection includes routes that don't touch Disney property.  The ones that do involve a tiny sliver of land adjacent to I-4.   It doesn't appear Disney involvement is essential to their plans.  Anyhow, Universal is about to invest billions of dollars in expansion, and is contributing $150 million to extend Kirkman Road.  Why wouldn't they do the same with Virgin Trains to ensure millions of tourists arriving by air aren't delivered directly to Disney's doorstep, bypassing their massive investment?

[HankStrong]

1 hour ago, codypet said:

I was very confused by this rendering UNTIL I noticed the unused deck on 528 EB.  They aren't showing the express lanes from I-4 EB to 528 because they aren't in Phase I.

I'm still moderately confused by the random floating ramp over the I-4 EB exit to 528 EB.  What on Earth does that ramp do?

Edited August 2, 2019 by HankStrong

[codypet]

From north to south on top of that drawing:

• WB 528 to EB I-4
• WB 528 to WB I-4
• WB 528express to EB I-4express
• WB 528express to future WB I-4 Express
• WB I-4express to EB 528express
• Future EB 1-4express to EB SR528Express
• WB I-4 to EB 528
• EB I-4 to EB 528
• The braided ramp on the east is Central FL Pkwy to I-4 EB
• The braided ramp on the west is WB I-4 to Central FL Pkwy

1 hour ago, jliv said:

I disagree.  The options illustrated in Brightline's unsolicited FDOT bid for a Tampa connection includes routes that don't touch Disney property.  The ones that do involve a tiny sliver of land adjacent to I-4.   It doesn't appear Disney involvement is essential to their plans.  Anyhow, Universal is about to invest billions of dollars in expansion, and is contributing $150 million to extend Kirkman Road.  Why wouldn't they do the same with Virgin Trains to ensure millions of tourists arriving by air aren't delivered directly to Disney's doorstep, bypassing their massive investment?

They're not going anywhere near this park.  Think about what continuous alignments are still available, what speeds VT is trying to achieve and what kind of geometry is necessary for that.  Also think about the previously discussed interim stop that will likely be happening and where that is in relation to Universal and Disney.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

20 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Universal Parks and Resorts chief Tom Williams noted in  today’s EPIC press conference that they would use “every bit of strength we have” to lobby for a Virgin stop at OCCC (which is adjacent to Uni’s new park):

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/travel/attractions/universal-orlando/os-bz-universal-epic-universe-orlando-20190801-h3544ln2rzcxdnhkax2rixawxu-story.html

From the Sentinel 

I read on CNN that Universal contributed $150 million to extend Kirkman drive. From the article in the OS seems they are serious about getting well connected to roads and transit. My question is, why is Universal working so hard to convince Virgin to have the tracks go down into International drive? Is it not easier to just help Sunrail and the Orlando metro area build a separate line? Sunrail and Metro Orlando seem to be more willing partners then Virgin. Help by contributing money to that tourist Southwest line. It would not be the first public- private partnership in Orlando, it’s worked quite well in the past. Maybe Seaworld can be convinced to chip in.

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, HankStrong said:

I was very confused by this rendering UNTIL I noticed the unused deck on 528 EB.  They aren't showing the express lanes from I-4 EB to 528 because they aren't in Phase I.

I'm still moderately confused by the random floating ramp over the I-4 EB exit to 528 EB.  What on Earth does that ramp do?

I think that floating ramp may be related to CFL PKWY.  Maybe they plan on a CFL PKWY WB to I-4 EB and the ramp is too close to 528, much like similar ramps near 536, Universal Blvd, and 192 that float.

1 hour ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I read on CNN that Universal contributed $150 million to extend Kirkman drive. From the article in the OS seems they are serious about getting well connected to roads and transit. My question is, why is Universal working so hard to convince Virgin to have the tracks go down into International drive? Is it not easier to just help Sunrail and the Orlando metro area build a separate line? Sunrail and Metro Orlando seem to be more willing partners then Virgin. Help by contributing money to that tourist Southwest line. It would not be the first public- private partnership in Orlando, it’s worked quite well in the past. Maybe Seaworld can be convinced to chip in.

wow.  $150M towards Kirkman Rd improvements.  Imagine if they saw utility in Sunrail connecting to OIA...

2 hours ago, codypet said:

From north to south on top of that drawing:

• WB 528 to EB I-4
• WB 528 to WB I-4
• WB 528express to EB I-4express
• WB 528express to future WB I-4 Express
• WB I-4express to EB 528express
• Future EB 1-4express to EB SR528Express
• WB I-4 to EB 528
• EB I-4 to EB 528
• The braided ramp on the east is Central FL Pkwy to I-4 EB
• The braided ramp on the west is WB I-4 to Central FL Pkwy

They're not going anywhere near this park.  Think about what continuous alignments are still available, what speeds VT is trying to achieve and what kind of geometry is necessary for that.  Also think about the previously discussed interim stop that will likely be happening and where that is in relation to Universal and Disney.

Boom!  that's what I figured those floating ramp(s) were.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Exactly!!!

http://collider.com/new-universal-theme-park-details-name-epic-universe/?amp

Edited August 2, 2019 by Urban Mail Carrier

[Urban Mail Carrier]

http://collider.com/new-universal-theme-park-details-name-epic-universe/?amp

[jrs2]

2 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

http://collider.com/new-universal-theme-park-details-name-epic-universe/?amp

great article!  very exciting.  the article goes into a bunch of stuff, and it really adds to the news of the new park etc.  they mention an entertainment complex as well down there.  I wonder if this is what was being referred to at that Skyplex zoning meeting a few years back.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Great article. What caught my eye was the money that was donated to the Kirkman Road extension. It was described as an investment. An investment in the tune of 160 million.  Imagine if such an investment was applied to Sunrail connectivity to the tourist line or to Sunrail and MCO. Taking into account Universals statement that they would move heaven an earth to convince Virgin to build the corridor to connect to Orange County convention center, it is evident that they indeed want a train connection. My reasoning is if they are willing to invest in transit infrastructure then why not just partner up with FDOT, Sunrail and partners and other collaborative entities. Unlike Virgin u don’t have to twist their arms.

[aent]

1 hour ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Great article. What caught my eye was the money that was donated to the Kirkman Road extension. It was described as an investment. An investment in the tune of 160 million.  Imagine if such an investment was applied to Sunrail connectivity to the tourist line or to Sunrail and MCO. Taking into account Universals statement that they would move heaven an earth to convince Virgin to build the corridor to connect to Orange County convention center, it is evident that they indeed want a train connection. My reasoning is if they are willing to invest in transit infrastructure then why not just partner up with FDOT, Sunrail and partners and other collaborative entities. Unlike Virgin u don’t have to twist their arms.

Universal isn't "donating" the money for the Kirkman Road extension. They are funding it in exchange for an impact fee credit. Every piece of new construction is required to pay a variety of impact fees, including one for transportation.. However, if you are willing to fully fund an enhancement to a facility that will be given to the public, you can build that facility and get a credit for the value of it against any impact fees that will be do when a Certificate of Occupancy is to be issued.  As an example, Universal would typically be required to pay $1796 per hotel room in transportation impact fees, and somewhere around $3-20/ per square ft for their park and related retail/office/entertainment uses. As an example, Universal should owe about $3.7 million in transportation impact fees for Dockside, and if they spend that on Kirkman Rd extension prior to the opening of the hotel, they can probably not pay it. The amount Universal pays for the roadway would probably be due in impact, and if its not, Universal will retain that credit for future construction of additional facilities.

If Universal didn't go this route, they'd have to pay the same amount of money, but have no control of where its spent, other then  by lobbying for it. Obviously since Kirkman Rd extension is critical to their operation, they want to make sure the money is spent on that, and this is the way to do that. This is common for all developers... for example, the reason Lake Nona is building and "donating" City of Orlando parks within their community, is they'd have to pay an impact fee for a park on each home sold, but if they build the park before they sell the homes, they can market said park, and ensure that money is spent within their community. The city often views this as a win, as they don't have to deal with building a park, and the projects can typically be done a lot faster.... The developer needs to spend the money first to get the impact fee credit, so they may build a park to cover a 1000 homes impact fees, and would have to have the park done when the homes are done. If they just pay the impact fees, the whole process of building the park has to start after the people are in the homes, so will take many, many years to get the facilities built.

Also, Virgin, as a private entity, probably has a lot less arm twisting to do to get them to do what Universal wants. FDOT and Sunrail and related entities are not going to be easy to get them to build exactly what Universal wants unless Universal is willing to fully pay for it, and fund its operation; and then they'll still have to go through a more extensive public hearing and bureaucratic process. For Virgin, it just has to be the choice that makes the most financial sense, and since Virgin would be fully funding construction and operation, permission simply granted to them to use the ROW (in exchange for a fee).

Universal's goals probably also don't hugely align with a more local oriented transit service. I imagine Universal has little interest in a system that would allow people to go all over I-Drive from their parks and make it easier to stay at off-site hotels without having to get into a car or non-Universal bus. They don't want to encourage their guests to explore the rest of Orlando. Sunrail, especially without it hitting the airport, just isn't going to provide much traffic or benefit to Universal. It'd probably be mainly for employees, especially considering the likely hours of operation and frequency of service There's also the huge benefit of either having a connection to Disney, which Universal wouldn't mind splitting vacations with because Disney is getting more of them and they probably feel they aren't stopping anybody from going to Disney, or eliminating the stop at Disney, making Universal a bit easier to access then Disney from the airport... no bus required. If that weren't the case, it seems Universal would just try to link up with AMT or Globalvia, who have previously proposed routes and negotiated for ROW on an airport-tourist area connection, and get it done that way. At least from what we've heard, there is no interest in doing that.

I guess the interesting thing would be if they lose out convincing Virgin to modify their route, could they go at it alone? I'd bet no, but if Disney gets a train and they don't, its surely possible.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I understand what you are saying about impact fees. Thus it would make better business sense for Universal to pay directly for a project that greatly benefits them as opposed to getting charged later by a fee that they have no control over its future use. However I don’t fully agree that Sunrail and related transit entities would be that difficult to work with( I could be wrong) because :

1. Sunrail and related entities want these projects badly and I’m sure they will more then accommodate Universals needs.

2. Orlando area governments have a proven track record of working well in public-private enterprises. 

3. If Virgin trains chooses to build Universals preferred route that would cost them an additional 500-600 million dollars. Doesn’t make business sense! 

I guess the best outcome would be for all interested parties (Sunrail, Universal, Virgin, city of Orlando and Orange County, MCO, Disney, etc...)to chip in money for their common good.  The outcome would be split costs, Sunrail having an extension to the Southwest, stops at Universal,  Orange County Convention Center and Disney, Virgin train extension to Tampa, MCO connection to Sunrail. These parties have so much to gain. 

Also im not fully convinced that it matters to Universal as it does to Disney about losing business because potential tourists make alternative arrangements. Unlike Disney, Universal is closer to Orlando’s city center thus its easier for tourists to gravitate to other Orlando areas despite any obstacles Universal may try to place. Remember Universal is the one pushing hard to have a train stop not Virgin Trains. I guess time will tell, but it’s fun to speculate. Thanks for your input I learned something.

 

[HankStrong]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:54 PM, codypet said:

• The braided ramp on the east is Central FL Pkwy to I-4 EB
• The braided ramp on the west is WB I-4 to Central FL Pkwy

There were the only ones I couldn't figure out.  The rest are pretty self-explanatory.  Thanks for the insight.