Brightline Trains

[dcluley98]

Also, to somebody's point upthread, this is not necessarily a bad thing if it gets built and taken over by the state. It would be bad for some investors for sure, but in general, just to get it done and operating would be very good. The state would have to deal with operating and maintenance costs for any other transportation project such as highways or other means of movement. Having a (somewhat) HS train system that actually works from Miami-Orlando-Tampa would justify the operating costs IMO as another option and a good/great one vs spending on traffic costs of increasing population. 

I do not think the private sector implementation is all that bad other than it not being optimized for what it should be, which is actual high speed inter-regional rail vs. on-grade, high-ish speed at times rail that only serves certain markets that justify ticket prices. If it was built by the state as actual HSR with state funding, it would probably be able to achieve goals of better serving more of the general public than serving those that can afford it. 

There is a difference. 

[aent]

6 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

The thing I am seeing is a separation of the entities to cordon off the money made to one section and keep it and let the other side with losses perhaps fail and need to be "rescued".

But if it fails, is is far from guaranteed that the government would bail it out - Rick Scott sure seemed to have no interest in doing that. So even if it does fail, I'd expect it to still remain private, and just operated by someone else who has a lower cost basis, and literally the only ones who lose are the investors. If all the naysayers are right that its all about improving real estate value, that will drop way down if the trains disappear...

6 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

If it was built by the state as actual HSR with state funding, it would probably be able to achieve goals of better serving more of the general public than serving those that can afford it. 

See, I'm not sure if thats true. Often the problem with mass transit in this country (especially among the bus systems) is its built to serve the poor... which makes all of the middle and upper class have no desire to use the system. Its a system designed to only be used by those who can't afford it and non-desirable by those who can, and as the market has introduced literally any other option (lately Uber/Lyft), its led to an even bigger collapse of  most of the mass transit ridership in this country.

If instead of building for the poor, its built to make maximum profit, much more of the general public is likely to use it. Same concept as how you generally much more likely to see lower class people in, say, Whole Foods or Publix, then you are to see upper class people in the dollar stores.

[jrs2]

Personally I don't see any HSR project being built to benefit the public as a whole at all or the poor to help them get around the state; that's what Greyhound is for.  HSR tickets in Europe are not cheap.  So, whether it was Obama's HSR proposal or Brightline, it's still going to be expensive (ticket prices) because of the reasons I stated a while back, being, that HSR is a luxury item.

[codypet]

Clearing on north side west of 520 is for new fence.  Just east of SR 520 is utility relocation ahead of VT.  Just saw Sprint trucks out there.

[WAJAS]

Amtrak’s new(ish) leadership is pushing for an increase in their high speed rail capabilities in certain corridors.

 

I could see them offering to take over Virgin if it were to fail.

[shardoon]

6 hours ago, codypet said:

Clearing on north side west of 520 is for new fence.  Just east of SR 520 is utility relocation ahead of VT.  Just saw Sprint trucks out there.

Maybe verizon will finally put a stupid tower near 528 and 520. Never fails losing service for a few miles every day during my commute. 

[jgardnerucf]

I was really hoping for upside down blueprints lol.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

So is this in anyway beneficial to the future of central Florida's transit future? 

 

Nobody is talking about inner metro connections which south Florida has. 

[jrs2]

4 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

So is this in anyway beneficial to the future of central Florida's transit future? 

 

Nobody is talking about inner metro connections which south Florida has. 

true, but that would be for different threads. 

I think the only reason that issue has ever come up here has been because of the stop at Meadowwoods Station with Sunrail which would complete Sunrail's connectivity with OIA.

[Urban25]

18 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

So is this in anyway beneficial to the future of central Florida's transit future? 

 

Nobody is talking about inner metro connections which south Florida has. 

I’ve been mentioned that lol, this doesn’t help anyone out except tourist in central Florida. 

[aent]

8 hours ago, Urban25 said:

I’ve been mentioned that lol, this doesn’t help anyone out except tourist in central Florida. 

Its real easy to come up with benefits for Central Florida residents:

1) A connection from Sunrail to the airport seems more realistic through the Meadowwood station

2) For longer, overseas flights that leave from Miami and don't have Orlando offerings, we can travel by train to Miami's airport and not have to drive down there

3) We can go to visit South Florida and all it has to offer without having to drive or rent a car

4) Less tourists on the road as they can use this system to get to Disney rather then renting a car at the airport

5) We can possibly use a Sunrail to Meadowwood to Disney connection to visit Disney without having to park at Disney.

6) It provides more people who are likely to be willing to use our future transit systems, as it will help improve interconnections and thus ridership numbers on future transit systems.

7) Makes jobs locally

etc

[EngineerNole]

3 hours ago, aent said:

Its real easy to come up with benefits for Central Florida residents:

1) A connection from Sunrail to the airport seems more realistic through the Meadowwood station

2) For longer, overseas flights that leave from Miami and don't have Orlando offerings, we can travel by train to Miami's airport and not have to drive down there

3) We can go to visit South Florida and all it has to offer without having to drive or rent a car

4) Less tourists on the road as they can use this system to get to Disney rather then renting a car at the airport

5) We can possibly use a Sunrail to Meadowwood to Disney connection to visit Disney without having to park at Disney.

6) It provides more people who are likely to be willing to use our future transit systems, as it will help improve interconnections and thus ridership numbers on future transit systems.

7) Makes jobs locally

etc

Im pretty sure this is the vision of Brightline.  This train is for tourists, not locals.

[IAmFloridaBorn]

13 hours ago, Urban25 said:

I’ve been mentioned that lol, this doesn’t help anyone out except tourist in central Florida. 

After some research, the answer to my question is no. 

Doesn't benefit central Florida directly. 

[Urban25]

16 hours ago, aent said:

Its real easy to come up with benefits for Central Florida residents:

1) A connection from Sunrail to the airport seems more realistic through the Meadowwood station

2) For longer, overseas flights that leave from Miami and don't have Orlando offerings, we can travel by train to Miami's airport and not have to drive down there

3) We can go to visit South Florida and all it has to offer without having to drive or rent a car

4) Less tourists on the road as they can use this system to get to Disney rather then renting a car at the airport

5) We can possibly use a Sunrail to Meadowwood to Disney connection to visit Disney without having to park at Disney.

6) It provides more people who are likely to be willing to use our future transit systems, as it will help improve interconnections and thus ridership numbers on future transit systems.

7) Makes jobs locally

etc

Sunrail to meadowwoods? Does that sound beneficial to you? The ONLY benefit it may have is if sunrail  going to Orlando airport THATS IT. Or maybe if I  was landing at OIA .

[gibby]

Seems insane for Brightline to have a train station one mile away from their mega station at the airport.  It would badly affect their travel time to/from Disney and Tampa.  Having Sunrail riders haul their bags off of one train just to take another train for one mile (separate ticket?) seems crazy and inconvenient.  Is this just a negotiating tactic?  It doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I say that Sunrail and Virgin should just split the cost of extending or connecting the rail line to MCO. If Virgin wants to connect to Sunrail let them do it at the airport NOT at Meadowoods. Split cost of building the extension to MCO and Virgin to Tampa. Virgin in exchange gets favorable rental rates along the Sunrail corridor.

[aent]

21 hours ago, gibby said:

Seems insane for Brightline to have a train station one mile away from their mega station at the airport.  It would badly affect their travel time to/from Disney and Tampa.  Having Sunrail riders haul their bags off of one train just to take another train for one mile (separate ticket?) seems crazy and inconvenient.  Is this just a negotiating tactic?  It doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

Its definitely not a negotiating tactic, as they aren't negotiating for anything other then the Disney station at this point, which likely has nothing at all to do with the government: its gonna be what Disney wants. If its not DIsney property itself, its gonna be whatever real estate opportunity near Disney makes the most sense.

The view is likely that Sunrail provides a source for riders to Virgin, whereas if local Orlando residents have to drive to the airport and park there, the cost and time savings will be eliminated. They needed some sort of local connection, Sunrail is a transfer spot that allows Sunrail riders to get to the airport, allows locals to park for free and ride the Virgin Train, and for those who want to, to use Sunrail to get to Virgin Trains to get to South Florida, or Disney and Tampa.

Realistically, no matter what, the Sunrail station at the airport is going to require a lot of people to transfer, even if its just to another Sunrail train. Under no proposal is every Sunrail train proposed to stop at the airport... One proposal I've heard was to just run a Sunrail transfer train between the airport and another station thats set to always arrive at the same time as the Sunrail train, or another is to split the already infrequent trains to have only half of them go on the current south side of Sunrail, and have the other half go to the airport.

15 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I say that Sunrail and Virgin should just split the cost of extending or connecting the rail line to MCO. If Virgin wants to connect to Sunrail let them do it at the airport NOT at Meadowoods. Split cost of building the extension to MCO and Virgin to Tampa. Virgin in exchange gets favorable rental rates along the Sunrail corridor.

Virgin Trains has no desire to use the Sunrail corridor, and is still going to be stuck building its entire rail line passing by Sunrail, so they have almost no potential savings, so why in the world would it make any sense for them to do that? Plus another huge problem is Sunrail is going to have really, really crapty hours. That means Virgin would be losing out on all possiblities of local traffic on all weekends and most of the day. Virgin isn't getting tax dollars, hell they aren't using any public infrastructure for free...  Why in the world should we even ask them to do that?

 

To me, the only one that makes no sense is extending Sunrail to the airport. Its far too expensive, its gonna have far too infrequent service to be useful, and will negatively impact the existing route. The 3 airport train stations should be given to:

1) Virgin (done), with the train stopping at Sunrail/Meadowwood

2) AMT/Globalvia or some similiar route, with the train stopping at Sunrail/Sand Lake as previously proposed

3) OBX whenever that is built, should be extended to the airport, and is supposed to have a stop at Lynx central station.

All 3 stations will be able to transfer to Sunrail, which should provide frequent service to some path to Sunrail, They avoid the problems with Sunrail service getting even less infrequent on the south side, and seemingly doesn't have any disadvantage.  Then, in the longer term, if OBX can get extended further north to the Villages, it makes all the routes make even more sense

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Aent u say that Sunrail provides far to infrequent service to the airport to justify the cost of extending from Meadowoods to MCO. Do u base that on today’s schedule or a future schedule. According to estimates a Sunrail connection to MCO will generate over 2000 riders. As u know the Southbound expansion alone  has provided this 2000 figure a big boost to the system and is considered a resounding success. Buddy Dyer is on record saying that the Sunrail to MCO connection would indeed mean 7 day a week service.  U also say that Virgin does not desire to use Sunrails tracks but in their plans they plan to use Sunrails tracks on their way to 417 and eventually to I4. They may not want to, but they plan to if they reach an agreement. The use of these tracks is what I alluded to “ Favorable rental rates.”

I agree as well that when or if OBX/ Sunrail comes online that it should run directly to MCO. I believe that the current North to South trajectory should be divided into 2 separate lines.   This provides flexibility to start times and frequency. From Deland -southbound express service to Lynx Central and MCO could be introduced. Poinciana- Northbound could incorporate MCO as a regular stop. Point is that regardless of which setup is chosen dividing the line would provide flexibility. What do u think?

[jrs2]

On 8/17/2019 at 5:01 PM, gibby said:

Seems insane for Brightline to have a train station one mile away from their mega station at the airport.  It would badly affect their travel time to/from Disney and Tampa.  Having Sunrail riders haul their bags off of one train just to take another train for one mile (separate ticket?) seems crazy and inconvenient.  Is this just a negotiating tactic?  It doesn't seem realistic to me at all.

not 100% about the logistics, but even if Sunrail extended to OIA on its own, they would do it with a different train I think from what's been mentioned before.  nevertheless, they would still need an expanded station probably at Meadowoods because that specific train would not emanate from downtown or Kissimmee; you would still need to transfer.   so, with that being the case most likely, it would be better to have Virgin do it that FDOT.

To anyone else, am I correct on this understanding? 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

16 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

not 100% about the logistics, but even if Sunrail extended to OIA on its own, they would do it with a different train I think from what's been mentioned before.  nevertheless, they would still need an expanded station probably at Meadowoods because that specific train would not emanate from downtown or Kissimmee; you would still need to transfer.   so, with that being the case most likely, it would be better to have Virgin do it that FDOT.

To anyone else, am I correct on this understanding? 

If im not mistaken the OUC SPUR is the width of CSX and Sunrail trains. Thus practically it’s just a matter of extending that same width 2-3 miles to the airport. Which means our present Sunrail locomotives could rock or make a stop at MCO. Unless our leaders let Virgin destroy those tracks and build to another specification. 

[AmIReal]

A few interesting details related to the construction process here-

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/307958-orlando-to-miami-higher-speed-passenger-train-project-getting-real

 

[sethM]

I know this would never happen but it'd be great to see Orlando connected with the Cape and Melbourne for all the workers who commute everyday. Both the Cape and govt contractors in Melbourne keep expanding, 528 is packed at 6-7:30 in the morning with everyone commuting.

[jrs2]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

A few interesting details related to the construction process here-

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/307958-orlando-to-miami-higher-speed-passenger-train-project-getting-real

 

I still can't believe how long it's still going to take to get this segment built.

[prahaboheme]

I was in Miami last week and walked over to the downtown terminal.  It was an absolute ghost town.  I am assuming it was time of day (and a Saturday).  It makes Lynx Central station look like Grand Central by comparison.  Is ridership for this meeting expectations, or, as some have suggested, is this train more about real estate development than train service?

[spenser1058]

So far, they have yet to meet ridership projections.