Streetcar

[sunshine]

All these talks about Lymmo....

 

Here is an article about streetcar and what it does to Portland.....

 

Anybody know if this happended with Tampa own version of street car?

 

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/big-story/from-relic-to-revolutionary-streetcars-revitalize-city-transit/105

[spenser1058]

About Tampa's trolley:

 

http://www.tampabay.com/news/transportation/tampas-history-and-its-future-bullfights-trolleys-and-lessons-learned/1252765 

 

Oops, looked like the Times pulled the article. The article noted the trolley wasn't doing well and they were either going to have to defund it or double down and spend a lot more money on it.

[prahaboheme]

The North/South trolley line proposal would be ideal as a starter route.  It hits up the CBD, Uptown, FH, SODO, Michigan Ave, 4 SunRail locations, etc.  It would traverse the North/South urban axis and would certainly bring density along with it.  Too bad it doesn't seem plausible considering Lymmo is full steam ahead in it's expansion (not a terrible alternative, but a little subpar to trolley).

[Jernigan]

What are the advantages of a streetcar over BRT like LYMMO? Any disadvantages?

[Theflytyr]

Guys, i don't ever post on here but KC is voting on a streetcar line as we speak and this rag had a pretty good write up on the Portland vs Tampa streetcar outcomes. http://www.pitch.com/kansascity/streetcar-transportation-development-district-kansas-city/Content?oid=3081278

[Dale]

There was a streetcar line proposed for downtown during Glenda Hood's tenure. Don't remember why it didn't fly.

[FLClarkKent]

Streetcars/trolleys look cooler than BRT. But I can't see how they would be any more efficient at moving people around town than a BRT with dedicated lanes. Does anyone know why one mode is chosen over another? I'd be curious to find out.

 

I can certainly see how cost would be a huge factor. While I think Tampa's streetcars are cooler looking than Lymmo, they're not nearly as useful. For people who live and work in Tampa, the streetcars aren't a viable form of public transport. Lymmo gets you around the core (for free) and with the expansion will become a viable from of effective transport.

[sunshine]

I think if we do have one this route would work..

 

Creative Village - Uptown - Orange Ave - CSS - Amway Center - Citrus Bowl - Creative Village

 

Then branch from Uptown to fashion square - baldwin park

 

For me, I just think that Lymmo is just a bus... a lot of people I know would not go on a bus in central florida unless it is disney... if it is a streetcar..people might use it...

[spenser1058]

Oscar, The Electric Streetcar That Came From Brazil

 

Some background on the demise of OSCAR, the "little trolley that couldn't" (from the Sentinel, 1997):

 

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1997-08-17/news/9708150220_1_streetcar-downtown-orlando-oscar

[FLClarkKent]

 

For me, I just think that Lymmo is just a bus... a lot of people I know would not go on a bus in central florida unless it is disney... if it is a streetcar..people might use it...

I never go on Lymmo because Lymmo doesn't really travel anywhere I need to go. I live outside the downtown core, so I have to drive, park and walk. I can typically walk wherever I need to get to once I'm there. But I think the East-West expansion of Lymmo will be huge. It takes Lymmo from being a small circulator to something with real world applications. If you live in Thornton Park, you'll be able to take it to the Amway for an event. Live in Parramore, you can take it to the Publix on Central.

[spenser1058]

I never go on Lymmo because Lymmo doesn't really travel anywhere I need to go. I live outside the downtown core, so I have to drive, park and walk. I can typically walk wherever I need to get to once I'm there. But I think the East-West expansion of Lymmo will be huge. It takes Lymmo from being a small circulator to something with real world applications. If you live in Thornton Park, you'll be able to take it to the Amway for an event. Live in Parramore, you can take it to the Publix on Central.

 

I agree - I'm much more likely to use the E-W connector than I have ever used Lymmo. About the only thing I really use Lymmo for is to get to Bob Carr on Phil  nights (my dress shoes aren't conducive to walking and I tend to sweat too much walking in a blazer from the east side of Eola to the other side of I4.)

[Jernigan]

I did a little research (simply googling streetcar vs. brt produces some great reading). BRT is basically the term given to advanced bus technology - which may or may not include things like dedicated lane, signal priority, off-board ticketing, etc. Any combination really. The major advantage to streetcar vs. BRT is that it's on a fixed guideway. The idea here is that fixed guideway shows real infrastructure investment and long term commitment to the project by the municipality - which will give a business the confidence to invest there versus a bus that could be here today and gone tomorrow depending on funding and everything that goes along with that. I think dedicated lane changes the arguement - especially when that lane is separated by curbing or other physical separation where it couldn't easily be turned back into a travel lane. 50% of the E/W lymmo expansion will be dedicated lanes and 50% will not. Mostly the dedicated lane will be on the west side of I-4 through Parramore. I agree with the "people won't get on a bus" reality - but also agree that we won't have a good measure of how much that factor is a drawback until the LYMMO proves to be otherwise useful which won't happen until it expands. On that note - I wish the LYMMO would be more innovative in it's design and look. Either give it a coned nose and futuristic look like high speed rail or even a NASA vehicle - or go the other extreme and make it an open air trolley that while less comfortable without A/C and minimal rain protection - it will gain ridership as it looks safer and has a romantic/nostalgic look to it.

[nite owℓ]

On that note - I wish the LYMMO would be more innovative in it's design and look. Either give it a coned nose and futuristic look like high speed rail or even a NASA vehicle - or go the other extreme and make it an open air trolley that while less comfortable without A/C and minimal rain protection - it will gain ridership as it looks safer and has a romantic/nostalgic look to it.

 

I agree. To the average eye, the Lymmo looks no different from the paid Lynx busses despite having "Ride Free" in the little digital marquee. I think a good aesthetic compromise would be something like the "I Ride Trolley" currently being used on I-drive. And unlike a fixed streetcar track, the good thing about using busses is that the route can always change to meet future ridership demand as our downtown continues to grow. Basically, the current route benefits the courthouse suits and homeless people. Once the N/S line is in place, a lot more people would start using it.

 

Also, the Lymmo is surprisingly very uncomfortable to ride. The extremely jarring ride and the body roll during turns literally gave my friend motion sickness. This was a couple years ago. Hopefully things have improved since they've switched over to the newer hybrid busses.

[prahaboheme]

As with the Tampa example, bring in the trolley and the dedicate line is simply not enough to garner loyal ridership numbers.  Lymmo has more than double the ridership numbers of TECO and expect that number to surge when the E/W line comes on board.

 

TECO had about 450,000 riders last year.

Lymmo had over a million last year (when the E/W line is open, the projections are about 4500 riders per day, or about 1.6 million annually).  I actually think the projections are low.

[CaptainJustice]

I like the Lymmo. I do not want to see a street car in Orlando. It'd take up too much room and is tacky an dunoriginal if you ask me. I'm so glad miami went with the Metromover. It's unique just as Lymmo is to Orlando. 

[Captain.Metro]

There are many streetcar options that can be modern and reflect the progressive, new feel Orlando wants to project. See the D.C. Red Car project going into the gentrified H Street corridor. I could see the LYMMO being transformed into something more like this when more service is needed.

 

In the meantime, with BRT (LYMMO) in Orlando--- I'd rather not see a bus that resembles a vintage trolley. IMO, it looks touristy and hokey. It's something you'd see in tourist trap towns (Branson, MO and Pigeon Forge, TN come to mind). Whereas buses have a negative stigma in a city where not having car automatically makes one think you cannot afford one, a novel bus design can work.

 

I don't, however, think that BRT is a long-term solution. From my experience using L.A. Metro's Orange Line, it gets packed and the wait at peak times is long and the ride uncomfortable. The Orange Line is an example of where BRT with a dedicated lane needs to be converted to trolley/street car/lightrail.

[bulldogger]

Lymmo was originally sold as a circulator for downtown's Arts District by Glenda Hood.  It will actually happen now.

[Boomer136]

I have started using Lymmo much more now to travel between Bob Carr, where I park for free, and Mad Cow where parking is expensive or further away than the Lymmo stop. I like air conditioning and would not like any open air thing. I like the expansion ideas for the route, and think busses will have to be added for peak event times.  In Seattle its much more confusing as all the busses are free within a certain part of the core downtown, but pass that invisible line and suddenly you have to pay when you exit.