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Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)


Missmylab4

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I tailgated with a guy that knows a guy, while I was in Charlotte for the game. Goldman Sachs will be the financier of this project... There are some big things planned. 

EDIT: Please note that the above is product of an alcohol and pork fueled tailgate. While i trust the source, don't quote me on it.

What project are you referring to?

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One thing is for sure. Lincoln Harris sure can keep things under wrap and I guess they like surprises? 

I'm starting to really get my hopes up based on who they are bringing in, who is rumored to be involved, and how secret the project is.   It's got to be something huge.  Fingers crossed!

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Did this drunk dude tell you anything more??? Hints or anything???

I tailgated with a guy that knows a guy, while I was in Charlotte for the game. Goldman Sachs will be the financier of this project... There are some big things planned. 

EDIT: Please note that the above is product of an alcohol and pork fueled tailgate. While i trust the source, don't quote me on it.

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On 11/9/2015, 10:04:56, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I tailgated with a guy that knows a guy, while I was in Charlotte for the game. Goldman Sachs will be the financier of this project... There are some big things planned. 

EDIT: Please note that the above is product of an alcohol and pork fueled tailgate. While i trust the source, don't quote me on it.

Did this conversation involve any discussion of timelines?  Lincoln Harris has some big things moving through the pipeline already (i.e. construction of tower 2 at Capitol, 360 acre redevelopment of Knight's land with Cato) that I would imagine they are going to take their time with the Charlotte Observer site.  Especially if it is going to be as large as many people have alluded to.  Curious to know announcement plans and possible construction start/completion dates.

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2 minutes ago, queensguy06 said:

Did this conversation involve any discussion of timelines?  Lincoln Harris has some big things moving through the pipeline already (i.e. construction of tower 2 at Capitol, 360 acre redevelopment of Knight's land with Cato) that I would imagine they are going to take their time with the Charlotte Observer site.  Especially if it is going to be as large as many people have alluded to.  Curious to know announcement plans and possible construction start/completion dates.

Was told their current projects would not change their aspirations for this site. No Timeline.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

So lets assume the rumor, at least for those not in any loops, of Lincoln Harris teaming up with Simon Property has some truth to it. I think indoor urban malls are so much better than outdoor malls. Outdoor malls look tacky to me (at least that I've seen). I think a nice indoor mall with some great streetscape, big window's and restaurants and nice welcoming entrances lining Stonewall would be sufficient enough.  

 

So while thinking about that possibility, I've been looking at Circle Center mall in Indianapolis. A mall in downtown that is managed by Simon with Simon owning a 15% share and the rest is owned by about 20 local companies that pumped $75 million into the $320 million project in the early 1990s when it was built.

With that said, would Charlotte civic leaders, to pull off an uptown mall, need to pump and invest that much money into a mall uptown? Despite all that, it seems the Center City mall is struggling. It seems every time I look up the mall, there is a new article that seems rather gloomy. For example from the following article http://www.ibj.com/articles/56124-circle-centre-losing-three-tenants-including-two-originals :

 


" Three longtime tenants of Circle Centre mall are departing the downtown Indianapolis shopping destination, leaving big holes to fill on the third floor.
Gap and Gap Kids, which occupy a large chuck of adjoining space, plan to close Jan. 26, according to signs at the entrances that direct patrons to visit the Gap stores at the Fashion Mall. In addition, the American Greetings card and gift shop, plans to close at the end of January after more than 13 years in the mall."

 

"The mall suffered a huge blow in July 2011 when it lost Nordstrom, one of its two anchors. But Simon slowly is backfilling the massive space. The Indianapolis Star and Yard House have taken some of it. And Cincinnati-based mod-Mexican eatery Nada is expected to open early next year, in addition to Denver-based Punch Bowl Social possibly arriving in May, IBJ reported in September."

 

 

"Now, as Circle Centre turns 20 without a retail replacement for Nordstrom, there are fresh concerns about the mall’s future as a retail destination. Sales per square foot are down, the building itself is aging, and persuading the lone anchor, Carson Pirie Scott, to stay another three years required generous incentives.

Mall manager Simon Property Group reported Circle Centre’s occupancy at 90 percent in a May 2014 report to city officials. But the percentage appears to have dropped significantly after a rash of post-holiday store closings. A stroll through the mall shows 11 empty storefronts."

 

 

Despite all that said, Circle Center mall is still profitable and Simon decided to pump 20 million in upgrades.

 

Bringing that back to Charlotte. Would a Circle Center in Charlotte be different? Would Belk be an anchor? Despite locations at Carolina Place, SouthPark & NorthLake? Nordstrum has been floated around before, but if Nordstrom bolted from Circle Center, would business be that much better uptown? I think a mall with 2 anchors would serve uptown and the surrounding fairly well. It will give people a place to shop (besides at the Metropolitan. As cute as the little boutiques are that close at 5PM, I think national retailers would fill a retail void that center city residents are lacking compared to other cities even smaller than us. A smaller Dicks sporting goods for example, would serve an excellent void for center city residents.

 

The lack of places to shop uptown is so frustrating. We have a couple boutiques that close early but cater primarily to women. The economic catalyst to both recruiting relocations, attracting more conventions & events and the urban renaissance a potential development with a mall uptown would bring would be, to borrow from Trump, yuge. It could possibly spark another development boom when the cycle may otherwise start to cool.

 

Regardless, I guess sooner or later we'll get some facts. In the mean time, I'll be looking at Circle Center mall and wondering what that means to us in Charlotte.

 

 

 


 

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This is completely unscientific, but looking at what Indy considers their "downtown" which is roughly about equal to the Uptown 3 mile ring, Indy states they have a population of 27,000.  By comparison, Uptown + Southend alone have an estimated 2015 population of 23,000.  And that figure doesn't include the west side, noda, Elizabeth, Chantilly, Belmont, ect ect.  Given our population growth in comparison to an Indy and our absolute retail VOID in Uptown, I'd argue we are probably more ripe for an urban mall.  That said, Indy boasts over 200,000 office workers in their "downtown", whereas our figures suggest a workforce of roughly 100,000.  I don't know a lot about Indy, but I'm hard pressed to believe Indy has double of the office workforce of us.  Maybe I'm wrong, but that's just a little hard to believe.  Anyways, I think a mall in uptown would do just fine.

 

 

downtown-indy-neighborhoods-map.pdf

 

From their website:

 

The Market and Workforce - Come Grow Here
As the fastest growing Downtown in the Midwest, Downtown Indy offers an authentically-urban lifestyle
 
  •  With a daytime population or more than 200,000 office workers and 27,000 residents, Downtown Indy is the one area in the state that contains every type of shopper imaginable.
  • More than 26 million people travel to Indy annually. Each visitor spends an average of $169 per day. Tourism generates more than $4.4 billion ineconomic impact for Central Indiana.
  • Our student population grows larger each year. In 2015, Downtown Indy was home to more than 63,755 higher-education students studying at IUPUI, University of Indianapolis, Ivy Tech, Marian University and Harrison College. To accommodate these urban millennials, another 2,000 furnished apartments are currently under construction and will be ready for the fall semester of 2016.
  • The Downtown development momentum continues with $1.4 billion of investments planned through 2017.
  • More than 1.2 million square-feet of commercial space will be renovated or added to the vibrancy of Downtown by 2017. This includes new boutique hotels, state-of-the-art office space and street level retail opportunities.
  • The street-level rent for retail and restaurants ranges from $20 - $65 per square foot; demand is growing.

 

 

And then all our figures come from here:

 

Live.PNG.698eaa7a5d390e74f27b75a5c7a33ce

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I'd be willing to bet the farm that this won't be an indoor mall, or a mall at all. Given the size of the land, this will likely be master planned and built out in phases over time. I'm sure there's a large retail component planned, but I'd be surprised if it included a traditional mall anchor box of anything larger than an H&M type junior box user. I would imagine BEST CASE it'll look something like a scaled down (and value engineered) version of Brickell City Centre in Miami without the indoor component- http://www.brickellcitycentre.com/ 

Edited by Prodev
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I certainly hope our aspirations are not to be like Indy!

I think an urban indoor mall is a terrible use of this space. 

Mixed use with outdoor retail & restaurants and indoor condo's would be much nicer.

Something that gets people walking around the area and not just parking in some attached concrete above ground parking garage and then staying within the confines of the mall.

That said, I cannot cite any mixed examples and all the "fake" outdoor malls I've seen in this state do make me laugh.

 

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I agree that I don't think an indoor mall is the best use. Make it mixed use with tons of retail but just don't do it in the traditional mall style. Perhaps an indoor/outdoor retail combination with a hotel and/or residences. This block is too large and too prominent in uptown for use exclusively as a center city mall.

What are the "fake" outdoor malls that you're referring to? Pardon my ignorance.

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I was worried someone would call me on that. ;-)

At the time, 10+ years ago, I was visiting my son at UNC and not sure where we were. I'm pretty sure this is one of them:

http://www.americaspremiershoppingplaces.com/apsp/locations/profiles/streets-at-southpoint.html

If I remember right this was surrounded by a sea of surface parking and some cheap apartments so my impression might have been better if it was plopped down on the observer site with parking hidden underneath or just using the million spots already available in Charlotte if you're able to walk 3 or 4 blocks.

Then there was one more in that area we visited not sure where though.

Now granted I've lived in Burlington VT (think Church street pedestrian mall) and Denver (think Boulder pedestrian mall) so I have a skewed point of reference. I think a high bar would be a good target though.

 

Edited by elrodvt
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59 minutes ago, Prodev said:

I'd be willing to bet the farm that this won't be an indoor mall, or a mall at all. Given the size of the land, this will likely be master planned and built out in phases over time. I'm sure there's a large retail component planned, but I'd be surprised if it included a traditional mall anchor box of anything larger than an H&M type junior box user. I would imagine BEST CASE it'll look something like a scaled down (and value engineered) version of Brickell City Centre in Miami without the indoor component- http://www.brickellcitycentre.com/ 

I think thats what most of us have been expecting all along, Brickell City Centre. Speaking that there is a Simon connection. I don't know where this Mall hubbub came from, not a sensible use of the land. The last urban mall that I can think of that was built is City Creek Center in Salt Lake City, and honestly, thats not really a traditional mall. People just don't build urban malls anymore. They build town centers. After doing some exploring of City Creek Center... on the inter webs, I love it. If Salt Lake City can have something like City Creek Center, Charlotte should be able to as well.

I would just hope that Charlotte's version would have less of an enclosed feeling and better street level presence. Would be great to try to create a small town retail street vibe with medium densities around it.

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25 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I think thats what most of us have been expecting all along, Brickell City Centre. Speaking that there is a Simon connection. I don't know where this Mall hubbub came from, not a sensible use of the land. The last urban mall that I can think of that was built is City Creek Center in Salt Lake City, and honestly, thats not really a traditional mall. People just don't build urban malls anymore. They build town centers. After doing some exploring of City Creek Center... on the inter webs, I love it. If Salt Lake City can have something like City Creek Center, Charlotte should be able to as well.

 

Mall, town center, retail center or what have you may. Any cluster of retailers with tenants such as GAP, H&M, Coach, still brings the same question whether a developer believes there is a sufficient, comfortable market to develop a strong retail cluster. Which, if Indy & Salt Lake (and probably others our size or smaller) can have retail town centers and malls, surely a town center mall retail strip center whatever could work here too.

 

(Edit: just died a little looking at center creek mall. And it was built as recently as 2012)

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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Why not an indoor mall? If an indoor mall is what is required to kickoff a cluster of retail in Uptown I think it would be very welcome. I think it is a huge leap to expect retailers to just start grabbing up space along major streets just because Uptown hit some magical number on employment or residents. The people who make these decisions are very aware of the attitudes and habits of the retail shoppers in the southeast (still dominated by mall and suburban shopping).

I saw this development this weekend and thought it would be perfect for a parcel near the Overstreet Mall or another project looking to have a large retail component. It is a vertical indoor mall with five floors, a cinema, and a ton of food options. Since Epicenter is heavy on entertainment and less of the national retailers, I'm sure a developer may have to get creative to get national credit tenants to sign on and that may not be an outdoor concept.

h2cartagena.jpg

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