Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vitamin_N said:

So that would make it 300-500K sq ft of retail, which I guess puts it in the same ballpark as Midtown Metropolitan? Or maybe the Epicenter?

I think comparisons to either of these projects are not the right direction. Epicentre's total square footage includes 4 floors of office, a large movie theatre, and a bowling alley. So you can take a good chunk of it out that isn't dedicated to true retail. Metropolitan is a poor example because it includes so much big box retail. This is wild speculation, as all l know is the concrete numbers I've been given, but I don't expect anything bigger than perhaps a 100 +/- k sq foot anchor and the rest will be shops. 

• Tryon Place will end up being your "Epicentre" of South Tryon. The tenant mix they are focusing on is global dining, and entertainment.

• Crescent Stonewall Station obviously has Whole Foods and Whole Body. I suspect they will focus on Restaurants and Dining facing Stonewall. However I think the hotels have a chance at good retail. They will be facing one of the most travelled streets into and out of uptown. Going directly towards one of the richest zip codes.

• Northwood Ravin will have a notable tenants, for the same reason as Crescent Stonewall Station's Hotels.

I think a Mall at the Observer site makes sense. Currently South Park has the highest sales per sq. feet in the Region. I think they have something wild like 30-40% more than Crabtree. There is a large population of people with expendable income within 3-5 miles of the site. If its Simon, I'm not even surprised they would compete with SouthPark. The general health of SouthPark is so good, that taking 20% of its clientele probably wouldn't faze it. I suspect we will have some of the retailers uptown that we would have at SouthPark, but because the shopping experience won't be quite as robust, it won't hurt SouthPark that much. Observer land has direct site lines to a major interstate, SouthPark thrives in a choked web of secondary streets. This would be a big win.

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[Spartan]

On 2/26/2016 at 8:21 PM, Nick2 said:

I can't stand that awful tagline they developed for the city. It's so bad but also incredibly accurate. The summers in Cola are what's really brutal.

A lot of them do seem to fit into the timeline of the 60s and 70s for when they were built and are also university/government funded.

Here are some examples that I found (I might be wrongly thinking some of these are brutalist):

USC Humanities Office Building

USC Coker Science Building

Bates West Dorm

Strom Thurmond Federal Building

Christopher Tower

Finlay House

Middleborough Condominiums

Senate Plaza

 

Those are all mid-century international style. Brutalist buildings have large "heavy" looking components and usually not very many windows (the Richland County Courthouse is a good example). The Observer building isn't the best example of brutalism. In fact, it's probably closer to the international style than anything, but it does have some brutalist elements. Architecture is weird because it doesn't always conform to a specific style.

[HopHead]

47 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I think comparisons to either of these projects are not the right direction. Epicentre's total square footage includes 4 floors of office, a large movie theatre, and a bowling alley. So you can take a good chunk of it out that isn't dedicated to true retail. Metropolitan is a poor example because it includes so much big box retail. This is wild speculation, as all l know is the concrete numbers I've been given, but I don't expect anything bigger than perhaps a 100 +/- k sq foot anchor and the rest will be shops. 

• Tryon Place will end up being your "Epicentre" of South Tryon. The tenant mix they are focusing on is global dining, and entertainment.

• Crescent Stonewall Station obviously has Whole Foods and Whole Body. I suspect they will focus on Restaurants and Dining facing Stonewall. However I think the hotels have a chance at good retail. They will be facing one of the most travelled streets into and out of uptown. Going directly towards one of the richest zip codes.

• Northwood Ravin will have a notable tenants, for the same reason as Crescent Stonewall Station's Hotels.

I think a Mall at the Observer site makes sense. Currently South Park has the highest sales per sq. feet in the Region. I think they have something wild like 30-40% more than Crabtree. There is a large population of people with expendable income within 3-5 miles of the site. If its Simon, I'm not even surprised they would compete with SouthPark. The general health of SouthPark is so good, that taking 20% of its clientele probably wouldn't faze it. I suspect we will have some of the retailers uptown that we would have at SouthPark, but because the shopping experience won't be quite as robust, it won't hurt SouthPark that much. Observer land has direct site lines to a major interstate, SouthPark thrives in a choked web of secondary streets. This would be a big win.

Here's a question... Do we see something happening here before we do the Tryon Place site? Sounds like a lot of momentum is building for the Observer site.. Tryon Place keeps getting pushed back. 

[15895]

3 minutes ago, HopHead said:

Here's a question... Do we see something happening here before we do the Tryon Place site? Sounds like a lot of momentum is building for the Observer site.. Tryon Place keeps getting pushed back. 

He said on another site it will be 36 floors, around the height of the Vue, utility work starts this summer and construction 3Q. Sounds like momentum to me

 

(which I could've sworn that's what the goal was originally until the summer of last year when someone kept suggesting 3Q, 4Q,1Q16, 

Edited March 3, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, HopHead said:

Here's a question... Do we see something happening here before we do the Tryon Place site? Sounds like a lot of momentum is building for the Observer site.. Tryon Place keeps getting pushed back. 

Tryon Place 100% happens first.

Tryon Place is not losing momentum. Its on track. Its a big, complicated project with a lot of working parts. This isn't Wachovia building a 48 floor building, or Bank of America building a 30 floor building, this is a development company, taking a chance, and throwing a building up. Its unprecedented in charlotte at this scale. Building "Spec" ain't easy, though personally I don't think its going to be 100% spec, I think they have someone in the process of signing (as does 615 S. College I think), based on the height increase. Keep in mind there are 3 buildings on the site to be demo'd and cleared, there are utilities to be moved, there is a lot that goes into anyone building a building. 

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[HopHead]

14 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Tryon Place 100% happens first.

Tryon Place is not losing momentum. Its on track. Its a big, complicated project with a lot of working parts. This isn't Wachovia building a 48 floor building, or Bank of America building a 30 floor building, this is a development company, taking a chance, and throwing a building up. Its unprecedented in charlotte at this scale. Building "Spec" ain't easy, though personally I don't think its going to be 100% spec, I think they have someone in the process of signing (as does 615 S. College I think), based on the height increase. Keep in mind there are 3 buildings on the site to be demo'd and cleared, there are utilities to be moved, there is a lot that goes into anyone building a building. 

 

Yea, I know it's complicated... It just seems to me that a year ago, Tryon Place was full steam ahead. It's gotten quiet. Obviously, I'm not in the know like a lot of others and you probably hate getting asked about it all the time. I thought they were supposed to start moving utilities last summer and they were ready to move ahead without an anchor, but could be wrong. Anyways, not trying to get off topic... 

[Guest]

Just now, HopHead said:

Yea, I know it's complicated... It just seems to me that a year ago, Tryon Place was full steam ahead. It's gotten quiet. Obviously, I'm not in the know like a lot of others and you probably hate getting asked about it all the time. I thought they were supposed to start moving utilities last summer and they were ready to move ahead without an anchor, but could be wrong. Anyways, not trying to get off topic... 

Honestly, Its super hard to name a single project that started on time, you know what I mean? 

[HopHead]

6 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Honestly, Its super hard to name a single project that started on time, you know what I mean? 

Hey now, every project I work on starts on time... Though, I'm not in the construction industry! Haha.

[Deleted.]

39 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Tryon Place 100% happens first.

Tryon Place is not losing momentum. Its on track. Its a big, complicated project with a lot of working parts. This isn't Wachovia building a 48 floor building, or Bank of America building a 30 floor building, this is a development company, taking a chance, and throwing a building up. Its unprecedented in charlotte at this scale. Building "Spec" ain't easy, though personally I don't think its going to be 100% spec, I think they have someone in the process of signing (as does 615 S. College I think), based on the height increase. Keep in mind there are 3 buildings on the site to be demo'd and cleared, there are utilities to be moved, there is a lot that goes into anyone building a building. 

 

This is good news! Thanks for insight and updates RDF21! 

I haven't really kept up with the Observer sigh, but it's great to see so many projects starting!

Off-topic but...

Because I'm obsessed with height, are we still looking at 36 stories for Tryon Place?

[Guest]

Just now, HopHead said:

Hey now, every project I work on starts on time... Though, I'm not in the construction industry! Haha.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the largest Spec building ever built in Charlotte was the Carillon in 1991. Its 470k sq feet, interestingly it was planned to be accompanied with the region's first Swissotel.  After that its Ally Bank tipping the scales at 363k sq feet. After that... Charlotte Plaza might have been spec... I'm not sure. Point is. Its a 750-850k sq foot SPEC office tower. 

[HopHead]

2 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the largest Spec building ever built in Charlotte was the Carillon in 1991. Its 470k sq feet, interestingly it was planned to be accompanied with the region's first Swissotel.  After that its Ally Bank tipping the scales at 363k sq feet. After that... Charlotte Plaza might have been spec... I'm not sure. Point is. Its a 750-850k sq foot SPEC office tower. 

Ok, I get it...

[KJHburg]

The largest spec office building built in Charlotte was the Charlotte Plaza and it was the first building not started by a big bank or Duke. it was built in the 1980s and is 645,000 sq ft about 90% leased now.  It over the years attracted then Wachovia now CLT School of Law. If Tryon Place is going bigger or higher they better have an anchor tenant of some size. This Charlotte Observer site projects seems exciting. But if Simon is involved they would not want to do anything to take away from SouthPark their premier mall in the market or Concord Mills.  It would have to be something different and what retail anchor would they have? Which department store or large retail store would be an anchor not already in the market?  I can easily see the multifamily, the office, the hotel component of this but retail they would have to have a hook or big anchor? That I guess is why I would question that part of the project everything else make sense. I do think Tryon Place will come together sooner than this.

 

[15895]

I think department stores are a thing of the past. H&M and other stores are more suitable as anchor tenants.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

The largest spec office building built in Charlotte was the Charlotte Plaza and it was the first building not started by a big bank or Duke. it was built in the 1980s and is 645,000 sq ft about 90% leased now.  It over the years attracted then Wachovia now CLT School of Law. If Tryon Place is going bigger or higher they better have an anchor tenant of some size. This Charlotte Observer site projects seems exciting. But if Simon is involved they would not want to do anything to take away from SouthPark their premier mall in the market or Concord Mills.  It would have to be something different and what retail anchor would they have? Which department store or large retail store would be an anchor not already in the market?  I can easily see the multifamily, the office, the hotel component of this but retail they would have to have a hook or big anchor? That I guess is why I would question that part of the project everything else make sense. I do think Tryon Place will come together sooner than this.

 

Thanks for the insight on Charlotte Plaza 

Your reasons above is why I question Simon. I don't know that they would actually want to compete with themselves. Although honestly SouthPark is doing perfectly fine.

As far as value of retail in this location, I say its invaluable. Eden's is having Tons of interest from National Retailers at Atherton, hell Free People is coming to Atherton, will be announced this week.

There is a lot of advantages to this site. Visibility from the South West and 277 are among the strongest. The population within a 5 mile radius, the fact that the adjacent zipcode is Dilworth and SouthEnd. Charlotte is one of the hottest real estate markets in the US. The fact that there is virtually NO retail. etc. I can give 1000 reasons why large scale retail is great for this location. There is so much momentum in South Tryon that its going to effectively kill the N. Tryon master plan.

Neighboodhoods that are closer to this site than SouthPark
1/2 of Eastover
Plaza Midwood
Noda
1/2 of Myers Park
Elizabeth

Need I go on?

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[CLT2014]

Will they do free parking with validation for say, 2 hours, or cheap parking (like $2 per hour) to get the Myers Park and Eastover people of the world to come shop there for a few hours? I wish we could just rely off transit, but the reality is these people will take parking into consideration when choosing where to go. They won't be riding a CATS bus.

 

Edited March 3, 2016 by CLT2014

[dcharlotte]

Who cares if they compete with themselves? If they don't build it someone else will. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Will they do free parking with validation for say, 2 hours, or cheap parking (like $2 per hour) to get the Myers Park and Eastover people of the world to come shop there for a few hours? I wish we could just rely off transit, but the reality is these people will take parking into consideration when choosing where to go. They won't be riding a CATS bus.

 

That too. I didn't even mention Transit. There will be a mall, one block from a transit line that will, when this is finished, be reachable by 20 miles of people. 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Guest

[CLT2014]

5 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

That too. I didn't even mention Transit. There will be a mall, one block from a transit line that will, when this is finished, be reachable by 20 miles of people. 

So they currently aren't planning a cheap parking option to entice shoppers?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, CLT2014 said:

So they currently aren't planning a cheap parking option to entice shoppers?

You guess is as good as mine.

[CLT2014]

Just now, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

You guess is as good as mine.

Got it. The light rail will really expand the capture area and can help make this a "destination" shopping experience. Ride the train into the city for the afternoon to shop. This would be awesome to drive weekend foot traffic Uptown. 

[kermit]

I would be _shocked_ if there wasn't two hours of free parking with validation.

If queen city q can do it....

Edited March 3, 2016 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Parking and visibility are so important to retailers. The visibility is there for sure next to 277 and I agree parking would have to have some kind of free component to attract a regional audience. Again I think this project is a big winner for Charlotte in the long run just don't know how much will happen in the next year or two. Lincoln Harris took a big gamble on their Capitol Towers in SouthPark and the first tower is mostly leased from what I have heard from announced tenants and not so announced. Their financial partner is Goldman Sachs plenty of money there too. It will be exciting to see this develop over the next few years. This economic expansion cycle is long in the tooth and is now 4th longest in US history even though it seemed much slower. Timing is always important is huge developments like this as much as money and that is why developers race to break ground to beat the competition. Think Mint Museum Apartments vs Greystar Ascent tower or 300 South Tryon and 615 South College vs Tryon Place. But all in all exciting time to be in Charlotte!

[Guest]

14 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Parking and visibility are so important to retailers. The visibility is there for sure next to 277 and I agree parking would have to have some kind of free component to attract a regional audience. Again I think this project is a big winner for Charlotte in the long run just don't know how much will happen in the next year or two. Lincoln Harris took a big gamble on their Capitol Towers in SouthPark and the first tower is mostly leased from what I have heard from announced tenants and not so announced. Their financial partner is Goldman Sachs plenty of money there too. It will be exciting to see this develop over the next few years. This economic expansion cycle is long in the tooth and is now 4th longest in US history even though it seemed much slower. Timing is always important is huge developments like this as much as money and that is why developers race to break ground to beat the competition. Think Mint Museum Apartments vs Greystar Ascent tower or 300 South Tryon and 615 South College vs Tryon Place. But all in all exciting time to be in Charlotte!

Don't forget Lincoln Harris' MASSIVE Cato project. 

 

[JRNYP2C]

So, I went (online) to look at Simon's venture in their hometown of Indianapolis - Circle Center Mall and was somewhat disappointed at the list of tenants.  I can remember when this was proposed and it was like the second coming for that city.  From what I can remember reading, the hoopla died down and CCM is not what it used to be.  The current list of tenants is like what we would see in any suburban mall here in Charlotte - heavy on food court vendors too.  I know we cannot draw a direct connection to Indy in terms of population and such, but are we hoping that a) we get something different from that and b) Simon is changing with the times on these kinds of developments and has something better?

I would hope with office, hotel and such attached to this development, we would get something that is going to have the draw that we are all expecting.  Question for other UP'ers - doesn't a concentrated block of retail kind of insulate itself from the rest of the city?  Or are we hoping that it is going to feed off of and from the other retail aspects that are already here and proposed (Tryon Place, Whole Foods and such)?

[15895]

Circle Center mall is a poor example. It's been going down the drain losing major anchors. A better example would be to look at the Salt Lake City mall.

 

And any urban mall should avoid big traditional anchor stores IMO. I just see no future there 

 

and if Im understanding correctly, Lincoln Harris, or whoever, has obviously been speaking with retail tenants. I would imagine to have those discussions would mean the plans are relatively advanced. I hope we hear official details when they close on the land

Stonewall is going to be awesome 

Edited March 5, 2016 by AirNostrumMAD