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Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)


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36 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

I think one of Targets new urban mini stores would be wildly successful at LU/Uptown. There is no place within 277 that you can buy random miscellaneous stuff. I dont count CVS or Walgreens. I think an Apple store would be wildly successful at Ally place. With the proximity of the 5 star JW and constant revolving door of big spenders year round, new workers/residents...Apple would be extremely successful in that location. Selfishly, I dont want all the good retail going to Southend. Think there needs to be a nice mixture (in any downtown). 

Why don't you count CVS or Walgreens?

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1 hour ago, Dale said:

Among peer cities, look no farther than Nashville. It is killing Charlotte in planned and u/c retail. Granted, Nashville has a buzz Charlotte will likely never acquire. My point is that “What, compared to Dallas ?” doesn’t fly.

 

As opposed to a city with tourism that Charlotte “will likely never acquire” ? 

Uptown Charlotte is not going to have a street with lined with Kate Spades, Forever 21, Louis Vuitton, etc.  There needs to be a large density, lots of tourism and a yuge amount of foot traffic.

Uptown Charlotte won’t really have local retailers.... there’s no old stock of buildings. I’ve never really seen local retailers in brand new developments. 

I find it odd people are forgetting Metropolitan exist... it’s a lot more convenient and close to the downtown than some other cities have. Metropolitan serves uptown. No different than lots of major cities who have their own replicas of Metropolitan.  

 

Bars, restaraunts and unique places, museums, parks is what is going to make uptown continuely better. Movie theaters, bowling. Arcades.  Various activities. It’s fine if the shopping is “spread” into midtown & SouthEnd. I have news to break people.... in bigger cities. People have to take mass transit to go shopping. Charlotteans can too. 

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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2 hours ago, Dale said:

Among peer cities, look no farther than Nashville. It is killing Charlotte in planned and u/c retail. Granted, Nashville has a buzz Charlotte will likely never acquire. My point is that “What, compared to Dallas ?” doesn’t fly.

I dont know if I would say they are so far ahead.  They are getting a H&M in their new 5th and Broadway development being built now and some other non food retailers there but the rest of downtown which I went all over in November is all bars and restaurants and many huge multilevel bars.   Few tourist shops like record and boots store along Broadway.   They have many more hotels many more tourist than uptown Charlotte.  They do have a Publix that just opened.   

The rents are sky high in uptown Charlotte at Legacy and everywhere else uptown that limits the retail space to restaurants and bars who can pay or extremely high sales per square foot retailers and they need massive foot traffic.  I still think more developers with long empty spaces should lower their base rents and to get something instead of an empty space. 

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1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

As opposed to a city with tourism that Charlotte “will likely never acquire” ? 

Uptown Charlotte is not going to have a street with lined with Kate Spades, Forever 21, Louis Vuitton, etc.  There needs to be a large density, lots of tourism and a yuge amount of foot traffic.

Uptown Charlotte won’t really have local retailers.... there’s no old stock of buildings. I’ve never really seen local retailers in brand new developments. 

I find it odd people are forgetting Metropolitan exist... it’s a lot more convenient and close to the downtown than some other cities have. Metropolitan serves uptown. No different than lots of major cities who have their own replicas of Metropolitan.  

 

Bars, restaraunts and unique places, museums, parks is what is going to make uptown continuely better. Movie theaters, bowling. Arcades.  Various activities. It’s fine if the shopping is “spread” into midtown & SouthEnd. I have news to break people.... in bigger cities. People have to take mass transit to go shopping. Charlotteans can too. 

Never mind Nashville, much smaller cities like St. Pete and West Beach are killing Charlotte in this regard. Look, we all believe Charlotte will get there some day. But many of us had hoped that Legacy Union afforded a signal opportunity to achieve critical mass for retail. So, if the retail amounts to a smattering a eats and a monster gym, I’m not going to apologize for expressing disappointment.

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2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I dont know if I would say they are so far ahead.  They are getting a H&M in their new 5th and Broadway development being built now and some other non food retailers there but the rest of downtown which I went all over in November is all bars and restaurants and many huge multilevel bars.   Few tourist shops like record and boots store along Broadway.   They have many more hotels I still think more developers with long empty spaces should lower their base rents and to get something instead of an empty space. 

And/or more use of the program that helped House of Lamond get a spot uptown.

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10 hours ago, Dale said:

Among peer cities, look no farther than Nashville. It is killing Charlotte in planned and u/c retail. Granted, Nashville has a buzz Charlotte will likely never acquire. My point is that “What, compared to Dallas ?” doesn’t fly.

What so you can buy some crappy tourist trinkets and cowboy boots?

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19 hours ago, Dale said:

Never mind Nashville, much smaller cities like St. Pete and West Beach are killing Charlotte in this regard. Look, we all believe Charlotte will get there some day. But many of us had hoped that Legacy Union afforded a signal opportunity to achieve critical mass for retail. So, if the retail amounts to a smattering a eats and a monster gym, I’m not going to apologize for expressing disappointment.

But...Nashville, St. Pete and West Beach are all tourist destinations. There's a lot of disposable income with vacationing...so, a number of retailers like to locate there. IMO, Uptown is still not at that critical mass that soft-goods retailers that we all think should be here are going to want to locate. You can't depend on M-F numbers when your Saturday and Sunday numbers are nothing. It should be the opposite. And, I just don't think Uptown is there yet. 

A gym is a great amenity to have, and will make a killing in this location because of the Stonewall corridor residential, the massive workforce numbers, and its closeness to hotels. People are going to go to this place daily. I would love Target and such, but Midtown kills that option, and Southend has more potential (cheaper space) for some fast-fashion retailers. 

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20 minutes ago, Rufus said:

A gym is a great amenity to have, and will make a killing in this location because of the Stonewall corridor residential, the massive workforce numbers, and its closeness to hotels. People are going to go to this place daily. I would love Target and such, but Midtown kills that option, and Southend has more potential (cheaper space) for some fast-fashion retailers. 

My initial thought of a potential gym was blah, boring, and geez really?  However, I realized that if executed right, a gym can be more than just a gym.  Meaning, it doesn't have to be a place solely for just exercising, but a social gathering place (bar & lounge).  Lifetime Fitness comes to mind...there is so much more to it than just being a gym.  A fitness club wouldn't be my first choice for LU, but I could see it working.  

I don't think the Midtown Target would kill an option for an Urban Mini Target Uptown.  A mini one would fill a void in uptown that is much needed and the concept of these to me are more of a grab n go type concept...not full fledged shopping spree like you might see at Midtown.  With the amount of hotels, resident/workers, and daily events...I see people going in for necessities or quick purchases...the convenience factor is what these mini stores bank on.  

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4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Downtown Minneapolis tried to create a very nice, high-end retail street, and it was a huge failure.  Most of the stores have closed.

Minneapolis has the Mall of America, a big regional and national destination which probably took away from the downtown area.  The Neiman Marcus that was in downtown closed altogether and then the Macy’s that was near there also closed.  The MOA has a Bloomingdales, Macy’s and Nordstrom.  I still think that there should be smaller tenants in downtown areas.  Maybe shoe stores, lotion stores, small clothing boutiques, specialty jewelry, specialty European bakeries etc.

Edited by Temeteron
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Does anyone have any stats on Circle Center Mall in downtown Indianapolis?  I remember in the late 90's or early 00's that this was going to be the "big" think in retail and help kick start the center city.  I believe that Simon Properties spearheaded that at the time, but not sure if it ever lived up to the expectations from the start.  That is the closest thing I can think of that is even close to what we are looking at here with LU's retail footprint.

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40 minutes ago, JRNYP2C said:

Does anyone have any stats on Circle Center Mall in downtown Indianapolis?  I remember in the late 90's or early 00's that this was going to be the "big" think in retail and help kick start the center city.  I believe that Simon Properties spearheaded that at the time, but not sure if it ever lived up to the expectations from the start.  That is the closest thing I can think of that is even close to what we are looking at here with LU's retail footprint.

https://www.simon.com/mall/circle-centre-mall/stores

The store roster still seems pretty solid.

https://www.indystar.com/story/money/2018/02/19/circle-centre-mall-get-multimillion-dollar-renovation/351000002/

This article notes a bunch of closings in recent years, including its only anchor.

Edited by Guest
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1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I have been to Circle Center Mall many years ago.  However urban malls are not very viable much any more.  Brickell City Center in Miami and Hudson Yards are 2 recently built but most cities can not support them as  the costs are high, department stores are not opening many stores anymore and lease rates would be very high. I had a $8 scoop of ice cream in BCC in Miami!

Uptown Charlotte has some retail and some things other cities do not have.  We have a full size Whole Foods, a tiny Harris Teeter,  a food hall at 7th St Station, a bowling alley at Epicenter, uptown movie theater also at the Epicenter.  We do have a clothing store or two in Founders Hall, Lemonds of course.  Most cities I visit don't even have some of the things we have and they are much bigger cities with more employees downtown.   Plus we have so many new building that drive much higher rents.   Plus a Publix is in our future.  I would love an Apple store and I think because of their high sales per square foot they could make it work.  But uptown downtown is tough in most markets outside of Chicago and NYC and some in downtown Miami.  

 

I heard Brickell is a ghost town though. Or very sterile.

 

City Center in DC is possibly the most boring and lifeless place in DC. 

 

D.C. got everything it wanted out of CityCenterDC — except the crowds

At first we kind of figured the major retailers didn’t think there was enough market in downtown and maybe it wasn’t the time,” said William B. Alsup III, the developer who stuck with the project through four mayors.

 

When construction began, the New York Times referred to the project as a “modern-day Rockefeller Center.”

The problem is great city neighborhoods don’t typically form that way. The messiness and chaos created by multiple visions are often what make urban streets unique and memorable.

 

Stepping into CityCenter can feel like hitting the mute button on the energy and noise of the surrounding streets, but not always in a good way. And Hines executives are aware that something is missing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/dc-got-everything-it-wanted-out-of-citycenterdc--except-the-crowds/2016/12/07/26987794-9b9d-11e6-a0ed-ab0774c1eaa5_story.html?utm_term=.2d52ad0388f8 “

 

I heard Miami’s Brickell was a similar experience. 

 

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5 hours ago, Temeteron said:

 I still think that there should be smaller tenants in downtown areas.  Maybe shoe stores, lotion stores, small clothing boutiques, specialty jewelry, specialty European bakeries etc.

Any of us are welcome to open up a small boutique and store in Uptown rather than wait for others to do it. We can be a part of the solution, who wants to do it!?!

I think the hard thing is if I was to open a store, I'd feel like I could make more revenue in other locations in Charlotte, but cut my rent.

Edited by CLT2014
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15 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

Any of us are welcome to open up a small boutique and store in Uptown rather than wait for others to do it. We can be a part of the solution, who wants to do it!?!

I think the hard thing is if I was to open a store, I'd feel like I could make more revenue in other locations in Charlotte, but cut my rent.

My friend owns a retail  shop in downtown Mt Holly and he pays at least 1/4 the rent of central Charlotte rental rates.  That is why the unique locally owned shops are located outside uptown and in smaller downtowns in the region.    You have to sell a lot items to make money on a $40 a sq ft retail space.  I still think and repeatedly said this some of these empty retail spaces in parking garages and other places should be rented out to someone even if they pay half the rent.  $40 a sq ft for just 1000 sq ft is $3333 a month just for rent.  How about taking $500 a month to get something in some of these long empty spaces?   Some money is better than NO money.    Imagine the sales you would need in a retail store to pay $3333 a month in rent and pay employees, pay for the cost of goods.  

Getting back to Legacy I am sure any retail non bank branch or fitness club will be food oriented and probably a chain.  DITTOS for Ally at Tryon Place.  For example the former McDonalds spot in BB&T Center is still empty and being advertised at $40 a sq ft.    Don't blame Lincoln Harris for trying to bring a fitness club into their huge development.  At least it is something and will bring additional foot traffic that may help any other retail which will be likely be food related. 

Edited by KJHburg
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