Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Guest]

It would be amazing if they added an actual attraction instead of hotel/office. Like a multi use building like how The Mint Museum has a huge museum with retail space along with apartments on top. There needs to be more diverse ground level space instead of just restaurants. 

There was supposed to be a Epicenter type FanZone development, but Honeywell is in that space now.

But yea, just so everyone knows, really the only people that are privy to Lincoln Harris’ plans, work at 4725 Piedmont Row Dr.


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[j-man]

2 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

There was supposed to be a Epicenter type FanZone development, but Honeywell is in that space now.

But yea, just so everyone knows, really the only people that are privy to Lincoln Harris’ plans, work at 4725 Piedmont Row Dr.


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Ohhh well that sucks. 

[thenewkage95]

It would be amazing if they added an actual attraction instead of hotel/office. Like a multi use building like how The Mint Museum has a huge museum with retail space along with apartments on top. There needs to be more diverse ground level space instead of just restaurants. 

Isn’t retail slowly dying out and being replaced with online alternatives? I feel like restaurants are one of the only for-sure businesses whose services can’t simply be bought online.


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[Windsurfer]

3 minutes ago, thenewkage95 said:

Isn’t retail slowly dying out and being replaced with online alternatives? I feel like restaurants are one of the only for-sure businesses whose services can’t simply be bought online.


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Interesting question, as I'm 'sort of' in retail.  And, yes, merchandising is going downhill right now.  Maybe one day things will come back around. In the meantime,  I visited downtown Greensboro last weekend. That Scuppernong Book store was PACKED.   The bookstores in Asheville are always packed.  Why can't we get at least one freakin' bookstore in uptown Charlotte ?  Does the banking crowd just not like books?

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

46 minutes ago, j-man said:

Ohhh well that sucks. 

If anything it just puts the Original Duke HQ in play and the parking deck next to BofA (assuming the stadium stays in its current location).

 

[CTiger]

I'm surprised we haven't heard any whisperings of a major hotel coming to this site yet.  It seems like with 3 towers (including one HQ) of huge international companies, that there would be plenty of demand for it.  Not to mention that it would be directly across the street from the Panthers' stadium. . . 

Seems like a no-brainer, but what do I know.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, CTiger said:

I'm surprised we haven't heard any whisperings of a major hotel coming to this site yet.  It seems like with 3 towers (including one HQ) of huge international companies, that there would be plenty of demand for it.  Not to mention that it would be directly across the street from the Panthers' stadium. . . 

Seems like a no-brainer, but what do I know.

We have absolutely heard whispers. They were saying the site would include a 800 room hotel on their own marketing documents, which they inauspiciously removed from those documents a while back. Also Johnny Harris has said how he'd like to put a 1000 room hotel here. I'm pretty sure one will happen here ultimately, we will just see at what scale.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Windsurfer said:

Interesting question, as I'm 'sort of' in retail.  And, yes, merchandising is going downhill right now.  Maybe one day things will come back around. In the meantime,  I visited downtown Greensboro last weekend. That Scuppernong Book store was PACKED.   The bookstores in Asheville are always packed.  Why can't we get at least one freakin' bookstore in uptown Charlotte ?  Does the banking crowd just not like books?

Because a retail space on Elm St rents for MAXIMUM $20/sq ft, $14psf on average

Charlotte you can get upwards of $50, but average is probably around $35 uptown. So 1.5-2.5x more expensive space isn't exactly conducive to a low margin company. 

Heck the most expensive spot in Asheville is $25/sf, at Grove Arcade, the rest is around $15 on average.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Guest

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

Because a retail space on Elm St rents for MAXIMUM $20/sq ft, $14psf on average

Charlotte you can get upwards of $50, but average is probably around $35 uptown. So 1.5-2.5x more expensive space isn't exactly conducive to a low margin company. 

Heck the most expensive spot in Asheville is $25/sf, at Grove Arcade, the rest is around $15 on average.

I didn't realize it was so cheap in those places. Thanks.   How does Barnes and Nobles, and others, survive in Manhatten?   

You're obviously in the know.  While we owned a building down on Cedar St, we were getting around 20-25/ sq foot and that was too cheap.  That said we also owned a store front on West Trade (sold about 4 years ago) and got around $20/ sq ft.)  Wouldn't a developer be able to advertize something like a B & N  in their building as a sort of amenity. (?)

[Guest]

I didn't realize it was so cheap in those places. Thanks.   How does Barnes and Nobles, and others, survive in Manhatten?   

You're obviously in the know.  While we owned a building down on Cedar St, we were getting around 20-25/ sq foot and that was too cheap.  That said we also owned a store front on West Trade (sold about 4 years ago) and got around $20/ sq ft.)  Wouldn't a developer be able to advertize something like a B & N  in their building as a sort of amenity. (?)

They lose money. But having a 8 floor store on Union Square is valuable experiential advertising in the biggest and richest city in the USA.

 

As far as the amenity thing goes, that does happen, but the uses that concept works for is limited.

 

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[KJHburg]

I told you the retail rents are too damn high for local based shops plus we need some older buildings as a stock and that is not really present in uptown Charlotte but is all the surrounding towns and cities.  Cold but sunny day. 

Legacy 2 today from the freeway. 

[Windsurfer]

1 minute ago, KJHburg said:

I told you the retail rents are too damn high for local based shops plus we need some older buildings as a stock and that is not really present in uptown Charlotte but is all the surrounding towns and cities.  Cold but sunny day. 

Legacy 2 today from the freeway. 

I used to fantasize contacting Powell's books in Portland about the Builders' Building on West Trade.  Too bad it's been derelict for so long.

[urbanlover568]

4 hours ago, Windsurfer said:

Interesting question, as I'm 'sort of' in retail.  And, yes, merchandising is going downhill right now.  Maybe one day things will come back around. In the meantime,  I visited downtown Greensboro last weekend. That Scuppernong Book store was PACKED.   The bookstores in Asheville are always packed.  Why can't we get at least one freakin' bookstore in uptown Charlotte ?  Does the banking crowd just not like books?

I think there will still be retail. I think Amazon and other online giants will bankrupt box stores. This might actually be a blessing to small businesses. Small stores will pop up again as specialty stores. In the meantime, it will be a bloodbath for retail as a whole. As much as I hate it, I can understand why legacy made this business decision. 

[TheOneRJ]

The only retail that is dying is ones that can’t keep up. There are countless examples of thriving shopping malls/downtown retail across the country.  There is no reason that a city with Charlotte’s population and annual tourism to its CBD cannot support actual retail stores such as a Zara or H&M. All of the retail coming to Atherton Mill and the Design Center should have came to Uptown instead. 

Also, a hotel doesn’t seem like a priority for this development. If one ever gets built, it will likely be another suburban flag by Hilton or Marriott you can find in Ballantyne. 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TheOneRJ

[urbanlover568]

2 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

The only retail that is dying is ones that can’t keep up. There are countless examples of thriving shopping malls/downtown retail across the country.  There is no reason that a city with Charlotte’s population and annual tourism to its CBD cannot support actual retail stores such as a Zara or H&M. All of the retail coming to Atherton Mill and the Design Center should have came to Uptown instead. 

Also, a hotel doesn’t seem like a priority for this development. If one ever gets built, it will likely be another suburban flag by Hilton or Marriott you can find in Ballantyne. 

https://www.retaildive.com/news/mall-vacancy-rate-at-8-year-high/564296/

Quote

• Coresight Research estimates announced US store closures could reach 12,000 by the end of 2019.
• In the US, 9,037 store closures have been announced year to date, compared to 5,844 closures for the full year 2018; 3,807 store openings have been announced year to date, compared to 3,258 openings in 2018.

https://coresight.com/research/weekly-us-and-uk-store-openings-and-closures-tracker-2019-week-45/

You are more than welcome to invest in a space at a mall! 

[nicholas]

Uptown view from earlier this week.

[Urban Cowboy]

13 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

 All of the retail coming to Atherton Mill and the Design Center should have came to Uptown instead. 

As a potential shopper, I find Atherton Mill to be a more convenient location for these types of stores. I agree we need more retail uptown - but I’m not sold these stores would be successful/as successful uptown.

If you use Philly as an example, one of their bigger shopping districts is South Street. Which is located just a bit  further from the center of downtown than Atherton Mill is from Trade/Tryon.

The Atherton Mill location and vibe are both urban. And to outside visitors I would bet they see very little distinction between South End and Uptown outside of the names - and they probably view South End as a continuation of the urban/uptown fabric. I know when I’m visiting a new city everything feels more connected. Whereas we look at uptown and South End as distinct.

[Guest]

The only retail that is dying is ones that can’t keep up. There are countless examples of thriving shopping malls/downtown retail across the country.  There is no reason that a city with Charlotte’s population and annual tourism to its CBD cannot support actual retail stores such as a Zara or H&M. All of the retail coming to Atherton Mill and the Design Center should have came to Uptown instead. 
Also, a hotel doesn’t seem like a priority for this development. If one ever gets built, it will likely be another suburban flag by Hilton or Marriott you can find in Ballantyne. 

“There’s no reason”
They aren’t returning leasing folks calls, because they aren’t interested in Uptown.

They aren’t interested in uptown because there’s no suitable spaces for them, in a concentrated area of retail. Atherton is the first thing that checks this box in center city.

So then why hasn’t anyone tried? They have, Lincoln Harris wanted to build a urban mall, but the interest just wasn’t there. Retailers aren’t going to take risks. A few will, like the Urban Outfitters Inc, but they’ve clearly chosen Atherton, which has very good demographics, and is a 110,000 sq foot concentration of retail.

Really there is no spaces for either of those fast fashion giants being built. The first one I can think of, truly, is the giant corner space at Vantage, but per the leasing guy, they aren’t interested.


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[j-man]

On 11/8/2019 at 10:46 AM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

If anything it just puts the Original Duke HQ in play and the parking deck next to BofA (assuming the stadium stays in its current location).

 

What do you mean by that 

On 11/8/2019 at 10:29 AM, thenewkage95 said:

Isn’t retail slowly dying out and being replaced with online alternatives? I feel like restaurants are one of the only for-sure businesses whose services can’t simply be bought online.


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Uptown is doing great with adding restaurants, but I mean there could at least me more stores Uptown that would be convenient like an Apple Store, maybe more salons and barber shops lol. Idk I just want some type of mixture. 

[TheOneRJ]

19 hours ago, mpretori said:

https://www.retaildive.com/news/mall-vacancy-rate-at-8-year-high/564296/

https://coresight.com/research/weekly-us-and-uk-store-openings-and-closures-tracker-2019-week-45/

You are more than welcome to invest in a space at a mall! 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/2019/07/16/why-malls-are-thriving-in-an-era-of-ecommerce.aspx

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/geristengel/2018/02/21/6-ways-retailers-are-thriving-in-malls/amp/

As I said, there are countless examples of thriving shopping malls all around the country. One is located right on Sharon Road.

 

[urbanlover568]

15 hours ago, TheOneRJ said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fool.com/amp/investing/2019/07/16/why-malls-are-thriving-in-an-era-of-ecommerce.aspx

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/geristengel/2018/02/21/6-ways-retailers-are-thriving-in-malls/amp/

As I said, there are countless examples of thriving shopping malls all around the country. One is located right on Sharon Road.

 

Well statistics don't support that malls are "thriving". 

[King of the Queen City]

 ^ Fake News (for now). #BringBackBelk

[KJHburg]

^^ I agree a small format store emphasizing best selling items, dressing rooms, place to pick up online purchases, transfer merchandise from larger stores to uptown location and yes I do think it could work.  Very small though less 10K sq ft.  Nordstrom is doing some small stores in LA for the above reasons.    It would serve the uptown employment hub and you can not tell me that 100,000 workers would not every once and a while pop in for something.  

[Windsurfer]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

^^ I agree a small format store emphasizing best selling items, dressing rooms, place to pick up online purchases, transfer merchandise from larger stores to uptown location and yes I do think it could work.  Very small though less 10K sq ft.  Nordstrom is doing some small stores in LA for the above reasons.    It would serve the uptown employment hub and you can not tell me that 100,000 workers would not every once and a while pop in for something.  

Didn't they already try a small version in the Overstreet Mall years ago?  Granted, pre online retail.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

^^ I agree a small format store emphasizing best selling items, dressing rooms, place to pick up online purchases, transfer merchandise from larger stores to uptown location and yes I do think it could work.  Very small though less 10K sq ft.  Nordstrom is doing some small stores in LA for the above reasons.    It would serve the uptown employment hub and you can not tell me that 100,000 workers would not every once and a while pop in for something.  

I wouldn't expect any bold moves like this right away, but they are announcing a strategic revamp of "Belk" in Q1 2020 and have a New York agency working on the new strategy. Worth a read as this new strategy will likely have a big impact on our local department store: https://www.retaildive.com/news/belk-lays-its-130-year-legacy-on-the-line/554273/