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Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)


Missmylab4

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I definitely agree with the sentiments on here regarding High Rise Apartments needed at LU to help promote constant foot traffic but unless LH can get a very large Apartment Developer on board it may be quite awhile before it happens.  There is sooo much competition from Residential (from SouthEnd) at the coming Riverside site and the Morehead (Gold District) site which literally are only like 2 or 3 blocks from Legacy Union.

If it’s true Honeywell is holding a Lot for a future building (to be tall and get more advertising/screenshots on every game at BOA Stadium) then I would bet that a Hotel might be more of a possibility than Apartments unless they could get a Lennar Multifamily type of company to build something like they did in First Ward.  There’s just tremendous competition coming out of SouthEnd for the foreseeable future.

You all remember the building boom of apartments around Romare Bearden Park but that was during the Lowrise/Midrise Stage of SouthEnd which has now matured and is a beast.  It could be 2026/2027 before most of the convenient Apartment High Rise lots in SE are built out and the Pendulum swings back to Uptown.  Hell - even midtown may begin to compete with Uptown for High Rise Apartment dwellers once construction begins (possibly next year) on the Pappas & NWR buildings.  I know Id rather be in one of those buildings or in a SouthEnd Highrise with a expansive views of Uptown rather than in Uptown with partly obstructed views.  

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33 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I definitely agree with the sentiments on here regarding High Rise Apartments needed at LU to help promote constant foot traffic but unless LH can get a very large Apartment Developer on board it may be quite awhile before it happens.  There is sooo much competition from Residential (from SouthEnd) at the coming Riverside site and the Morehead (Gold District) site which literally are only like 2 or 3 blocks from Legacy Union.

If it’s true Honeywell is holding a Lot for a future building (to be tall and get more advertising/screenshots on every game at BOA Stadium) then I would bet that a Hotel might be more of a possibility than Apartments unless they could get a Lennar Multifamily type of company to build something like they did in First Ward.  There’s just tremendous competition coming out of SouthEnd for the foreseeable future.

You all remember the building boom of apartments around Romare Bearden Park but that was during the Lowrise/Midrise Stage of SouthEnd which has now matured and is a beast.  It could be 2026/2027 before most of the convenient Apartment High Rise lots in SE are built out and the Pendulum swings back to Uptown.  Hell - even midtown may begin to compete with Uptown for High Rise Apartment dwellers once construction begins (possibly next year) on the Pappas & NWR buildings.  I know Id rather be in one of those buildings or in a SouthEnd Highrise with a expansive views of Uptown rather than in Uptown with partly obstructed views.  

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Excited for the Duke land sales and eager to get more details on the German developer's mixed-use project by the convention center.  Could be quite catalytic.

I'm a bit skeptical, but should Tepper's entertainment district concepts materialize and actually get funded and break ground, that could drive some new and significant vertical apartment development along Graham in Uptown as well as in whatever is designated to be the "entertainment district."  Ultimately, I don't think Tepper has much interest in an entertainment district.  I think the city is trying to position its contribution of taxpayer dollars to a project that's as inclusive as possible.  Like you can't just say, "giving public money to a stadium."  Instead, you've got to say the city is contributing funds to a new urban neighborhood with tons of affordable housing and service jobs to benefit lower-income families, and it happens to include a stadium that will benefit from the public infusion.

Edited by RANYC
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Do we have renderings of this project? I checked the last few pages and did not see anything. 

 

Sidenote....

Sorry I have not been on UP in awhile and unsure of what is happening at this site. 

Edited by DM1LLS
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5 hours ago, RANYC said:

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Excited for the Duke land sales and eager to get more details on the German developer's mixed-use project by the convention center.  Could be quite catalytic.

I'm a bit skeptical, but should Tepper's entertainment district concepts materialize and actually get funded and break ground, that could drive some new and significant vertical apartment development along Graham in Uptown as well as in whatever is designated to be the "entertainment district."  Ultimately, I don't think Tepper has much interest in an entertainment district.  I think the city is trying to position its contribution of taxpayer dollars to a project that's as inclusive as possible.  Like you can't just say, "giving public money to a stadium."  Instead, you've got to say the city is contributing funds to a new urban neighborhood with tons of affordable housing and service jobs to benefit lower-income families, and it happens to include a stadium that will benefit from the public infusion.

Adressing those two thoughts highlighted;

SouthEnd is more vibrant (streetwise/pedestrian activity) currently than Uptown and also a very hot in-demand neighborhood for Lease Up & Property Sales (Townhomes) and is tough to compete with right now.  Any HighRise Apartment Developer is taking a risk building in Uptown Currently with the Gravitational Pull of SouthEnd now that High Rise Residential there is coming into its own.  Lennar lucked out with their building.  By the time Leasing begins in SE Apartments they’ll be leased mostly up at the Ellington (if not full already).  I think that SouthEnd is going to dominate in HighRise Apartment construction for the next 5 or 6 years.  After that - if Teppers ED has started to grow (pun intended) then that will increase the gravitational pull back to the LU/Stadium area some.  Right now LU’s gravity pull has only been for Office so far.  That plus the fact that ‘Close-In’ portions of SouthEnd & Gold District may literally be close to being Built Out by that timeframe so developers would need to move back Uptown or look further down in SouthEnd.  Either way, The New Bern Station to Morehead Street area is going to totally dominate in the coming 5/6 years because it’s desirable and much less risky than Uptown is for High Rise.  Anything built in that corridor will fill up/lease up quickly and is a much less risky bet than competing HighRise Lease Up Uptown would be.

Edited by Hushpuppy321
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1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Adressing those two thoughts highlighted;

SouthEnd is more vibrant (streetwise/pedestrian activity) currently than Uptown and also a very hot in-demand neighborhood for Lease Up & Property Sales (Townhomes) and is tough to compete with right now.  Any HighRise Apartment Developer is taking a risk building in Uptown Currently with the Gravitational Pull of SouthEnd now that High Rise Residential there is coming into its own.  Lennar lucked out with their building.  By the time Leasing begins in SE Apartments they’ll be leased mostly up at the Ellington (if not full already).  I think that SouthEnd is going to dominate in HighRise Apartment construction for the next 5 or 6 years.  After that - if Teppers ED has started to grow (pun intended) then that will increase the gravitational pull back to the LU/Stadium area some.  Right now LU’s gravity pull has only been for Office so far.  That plus the fact that ‘Close-In’ portions of SouthEnd & Gold District may literally be close to being Built Out by that timeframe so developers would need to move back Uptown or look further down in SouthEnd.  Either way, The New Bern Station to Morehead Street area is going to totally dominate in the coming 5/6 years because it’s desirable and much less risky than Uptown is for High Rise.  Anything built in that corridor will fill up/lease up quickly and is a much less risky bet than competing HighRise Lease Up Uptown would be.

SE has a vibe, not denying that, but it would be interesting to get actual foot traffic data on SE versus Uptown. 

It tends to be event-specific, but I'd guess that actual foot traffic data in Uptown should show it still has more total pedestrian activity than in any other district in the city.  Sure, the foot traffic may not happen when you want or when you idealize it happening, like many want to ignore boring corporates grabbing lunch or very predictable upticks because of major pro sports games, but when Uptown shines, it can really shine and between 4th ward or families checking out Shrek at the Children's Theater or 7th Street Market or dinner and an evening performance at the Belk or rooftop drinks at the Bohemian or a Knights' Game or Charlotte FC, Uptown is likely more dominant based on actual data without biases. 

We'll see on SE residential high-rises...sure plenty are proposed, we'll see what comes out of the ground.   The Radius is a high-rise and is in Dilworth.

With the exception of the Greystar project along South, we might be surprised to see high-rise residential in Midtown or at Metropolitan before the next one breaks ground in SE.  I happen to be skeptical of Riverside and think we'll get a very pared down project when ground is actually broken, but that's just me (I hope my premonitions are off on that because I actually like the Riverside project).

Edited by RANYC
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2 hours ago, RANYC said:

SE has a vibe, not denying that, but it would be interesting to get actual foot traffic data on SE versus Uptown. 

It tends to be event-specific, but I'd guess that actual foot traffic data in Uptown should show it still has more total pedestrian activity than in any other district in the city.  Sure, the foot traffic may not happen when you want or when you idealize it happening, like many want to ignore boring corporates grabbing lunch or very predictable upticks because of major pro sports games, but when Uptown shines, it can really shine and between 4th ward or families checking out Shrek at the Children's Theater or 7th Street Market or dinner and an evening performance at the Belk or rooftop drinks at the Bohemian or a Knights' Game or Charlotte FC, Uptown is likely more dominant based on actual data without biases. 

We'll see on SE residential high-rises...sure plenty are proposed, we'll see what comes out of the ground.   The Radius is a high-rise and is in Dilworth.

With the exception of the Greystar project along South, we might be surprised to see high-rise residential in Midtown or at Metropolitan before the next one breaks ground in SE.  I happen to be skeptical of Riverside and think we'll get a very pared down project when ground is actually broken, but that's just me (I hope my premonitions are off on that because I actually like the Riverside project).

You may be correct about total foot traffic numbers - SouthEnd though has foot traffic at times Uptown is very quiet but big events drive big numbers.  I do believe High Rise Residential will be dominant outside of Uptown for the next 5 years as developers take advantage of the wonderful skyline views you can get from just outside of the I-277 Loop.  Frankly, I’m surprised it’s taken them so long to do so.  Midtown, Dilworth, SouthEnd and Plaza Midwood would Highrises would have awesome views.

Anyway - If Honeywell does executes their option on another lot at LU, the site pretty much will only be a mostly Office/Corporate environment.  Even though it’s not a full live work play site, I still like it.

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4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

You may be correct about total foot traffic numbers - SouthEnd though has foot traffic at times Uptown is very quiet but big events drive big numbers.  I do believe High Rise Residential will be dominant outside of Uptown for the next 5 years as developers take advantage of the wonderful skyline views you can get from just outside of the I-277 Loop.  Frankly, I’m surprised it’s taken them so long to do so.  Midtown, Dilworth, SouthEnd and Plaza Midwood would Highrises would have awesome views.

Anyway - If Honeywell does executes their option on another lot at LU, the site pretty much will only be a mostly Office/Corporate environment.  Even though it’s not a full live work play site, I still like it.

I think there would have to be apartment/hotel at the final space. But who knows at this point. Apartments across the street will help LU retail though

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forgot to say it is one of 2 cranes to rise at the Mystery Tower according to Heede and they should know its their cranes. 

here is the photo proof of the crane base at the Mystery Tower (which everyone in commercial real estate and many others know all about)

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cey1gDQFp5u/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY%3D

Edited by KJHburg
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On 6/13/2022 at 11:01 AM, RANYC said:

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

tough sell? theres shopping, the rail trail, bars, restaurants and street activity. It has surpassed Uptown in interest, unless you like sports and cultural attractions which are not everyday things, and usually are followed by or proceeded with one of the things I mentioned above. 

Edited by CLT Development
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21 minutes ago, Synopsis101 said:

Tryon could be a true destination, but it’s filled with bank branches, office lobbies,  law firms, reality offices and a FedEx shop. 

Uptown is 2 Sq. Miles. You could probably fit SouthEnd/Gold District/Dilworth and Morehead in there. It's not necessarily Tryon, it is nearly everywhere else in uptown with some exceptions  (a couple of blocks along College, a couple of blocks on church the rest is stained with parking structures), spanning several blocks along Stonewall (the rest is stained with parking structures or terrible lobbies). Historic 4th ward with the exception of roads not connecting is alright, I like the area west of the stadium and I hope all those structures are saved, neighborhood around Frazier dog park is good. 

It'd be nice to see a bunch low/mid-rises throughout uptown with affordable housing particularly in Wards 1 & 2. Having way more developments like Savoy and some like Crescent Stonewall (rather than waiting for high rises which i don't think is necessary for most of uptown). It'd be nice to have developments like the one in SouthEnd that is housing Sycamore Brewery. 

 

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14 minutes ago, RANYC said:

One of my visitors did suggest to me that South End appears a lot less "diverse" than Uptown, a potential reason some in Charlotte may be so positive on its prospects relative to Uptown's.  But I told him I really didn't think that to be the case.

Really? What a crappy thing to say. This type of comment and/or attitude is really getting tiresome on these forums.

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51 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Really? What a crappy thing to say. This type of comment and/or attitude is really getting tiresome on these forums.

Wouldn't get too upset.  Maybe his reference was racial, but I took it more as alluding to the fact that Uptown is truly "urban," with a mix of "situations," which you'll find in absolutely every major city in the world...Paris to London to Berlin to Manhattan to yes, Uptown Charlotte.  

The occasional homeless guy on the streets or setting up camp at a bus stop.  Being approached by aggressive beggars in uptown.  South End doesn't have a central bus station, with all the characters you tend to see there.  No soup kitchen lines in South End.  Hardly any streetscape schizophrenia.  But the wandering schizos, the soup kitchen lines, the vagrants and beggars, the bundle of dirty blankets & shopping carts as a make-shift shelter are all common urban features of even the greatest cities in the world, and you brush that off because there's so much else to celebrate in a dense city environment like it's cultural institutions and creativity, and frankly, its authenticity.  Of course, we don't just sit back and abide these terrible human conditions, but they've persisted in big cities for thousands of years. 

  • Poverty and desperation may always be among us.  Fear & Shunning don't have to be our response.

South End just a bit more cleaned up, and while it's nice that it's another place in Charlotte for walking around, it doesn't supplant Uptown and while Uptown may always have a greater "mix of situations," I still believe in its positioning as Charlotte evolves its thinking as a truly big & inclusive city.  

Edited by RANYC
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19 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Wouldn't get too upset.  I think his reference was to the fact that Uptown is truly "urban," with a mix of "situations," which you'll find in absolutely every major city in the world...Paris to London to Berlin to Manhattan to yes, Uptown Charlotte.

The occasional homeless guy on the streets or setting up camp at a bus stop.  Being approached by aggressive beggars in uptown.  South End doesn't have a central bus station, with all the characters you tend to see there.  No soup kitchen lines in South End.  No streetscape schizophrenia.

South End just a bit more cleaned up...tidier as you walk about.

Here we go comparing Uptown to Berlin, Paris, London, Montreal, New York...

Do we really want to get into comparisons between Charlotte and San Francisco, Washington, Chicago, Barcelona, etc. in terms of urbanity? That would be so obnoxious because they're not comparable. Why not compare to San Diego, Austin, Tampa, Raleigh, Richmond, Minneapolis. Those are much more apples-to-apples.

And I'm sorry your friend equates people of color of having tents at bus stops, aggressive beggars with schizophrenia coming from their soup kitchen line... There are *plenty* of majority-black neighborhoods (or mixed) in Charlotte where it's not in the form of beggars and people sleeping in tents. Maybe go to black establishments, black owned business (which how many are in uptown versus white folk?). Nobody wants to live near beggars but even then. That's not why people prefer SouthEnd to Uptown.... At all... Look at how big of a deal gentrification is in some cities with white people moving into once black inner-city urban areas. They were dangerous. People chose to live there because it was a dynamic community. Even with any crime or even with the social distress, people admired the neighborhood. It's the same reason people are taking interest into SouthEnd. It's dynamic. Nothing to do with uptown being too "Diverse" (which is odd considering people consider it a playground for white folk but I digress).

This discussion was all about urbanity. 

Edited by AirNostrumMAD
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17 minutes ago, JerseyBoy said:

Actually -- and I'm really not trying to throw any gasoline on the fire here -- as someone who grew up in North Carolina (an hour away from Charlotte), lived in Atlanta and now resides in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, I don't think this visitor of @RANYC is all that wrong.

Let me just preface by saying, I love Charlotte. A lot. As a native North Carolinian, I'm so proud of what the city has become, and I try to visit at least several times a year to see all of the changes in person. Also, for what it's worth, I'm white.

During these visits, I've spent a lot of time in South End, admiring and observing the rapid transformation that's taken place there. I'll take extensive walks through the neighborhood, go to breweries and try out some of the new restaurants there. I'm saying this because my following opinion isn't based on one drive through or a quick visit. 

Each time I've visited South End, the neighborhood has felt, well, extremely homogeneous. As soon as you cross 277 into the district, I feel like you're automatically hit with a younger, whiter, perhaps more privileged and "bro-y" vibe.  It's very reminiscent of some neighborhoods in Nashville or Atlanta's West Midtown district. 

I can understand, @carolinaboy, how observations like these might appear negative, but perception is a real thing for visitors to a city. Charlotte should be striving for inclusivity, equality and diversity. And if people of color from out of town who visit South End (or other parts of the city) feel like there isn't a place for them there or it's heavily segregated, they're more likely to go back to their friends and family and relay what they saw. Bad look for the city, IMO. 

(Note: I'm a journalist, so I operate off facts and statistics before coming to any judgment. I don't know what South End's demographics are like off-hand, so that's why I italicized "felt" and "feel." I don't have proof that my observations and feelings are rooted in fact.)

Thanks for your perspective. I appreciate it.

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13 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

And I'm sorry your friend equates people of color of having tents at bus stops, aggressive beggars with schizophrenia coming from their soup kitchen line... 

He didn't equate them.  I even expressed in my post that I was doubtful his reference was racial, although it may have been.  Wasn't explicit.  You're making this a "people of color" issue with your response.

13 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Here we go comparing Uptown to Berlin, Paris, London, Montreal, New York...

Do we really want to get into comparisons between Charlotte and San Francisco, Washington, Chicago, Barcelona, etc. in terms of urbanity? That would be so obnoxious because they're not comparable. Why not compare to San Diego, Austin, Tampa, Raleigh, Richmond, Minneapolis. Those are much more apples-to-apples.

The post was not a full comparison of those cities.  It was showing a common thread among big cities, and Charlotte shares some space on that thread.  There's a difference between identifying a common thread, and a full-on comparison or trait-matching or benchmarking of cities.  And despite your name-calling, I have all the confidence I need that neither I nor my statements are "obnoxious."

Edited by RANYC
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