Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Hushpuppy321]

I definitely agree with the sentiments on here regarding High Rise Apartments needed at LU to help promote constant foot traffic but unless LH can get a very large Apartment Developer on board it may be quite awhile before it happens.  There is sooo much competition from Residential (from SouthEnd) at the coming Riverside site and the Morehead (Gold District) site which literally are only like 2 or 3 blocks from Legacy Union.

If it’s true Honeywell is holding a Lot for a future building (to be tall and get more advertising/screenshots on every game at BOA Stadium) then I would bet that a Hotel might be more of a possibility than Apartments unless they could get a Lennar Multifamily type of company to build something like they did in First Ward.  There’s just tremendous competition coming out of SouthEnd for the foreseeable future.

You all remember the building boom of apartments around Romare Bearden Park but that was during the Lowrise/Midrise Stage of SouthEnd which has now matured and is a beast.  It could be 2026/2027 before most of the convenient Apartment High Rise lots in SE are built out and the Pendulum swings back to Uptown.  Hell - even midtown may begin to compete with Uptown for High Rise Apartment dwellers once construction begins (possibly next year) on the Pappas & NWR buildings.  I know Id rather be in one of those buildings or in a SouthEnd Highrise with a expansive views of Uptown rather than in Uptown with partly obstructed views.  

[RANYC]

33 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

I definitely agree with the sentiments on here regarding High Rise Apartments needed at LU to help promote constant foot traffic but unless LH can get a very large Apartment Developer on board it may be quite awhile before it happens.  There is sooo much competition from Residential (from SouthEnd) at the coming Riverside site and the Morehead (Gold District) site which literally are only like 2 or 3 blocks from Legacy Union.

If it’s true Honeywell is holding a Lot for a future building (to be tall and get more advertising/screenshots on every game at BOA Stadium) then I would bet that a Hotel might be more of a possibility than Apartments unless they could get a Lennar Multifamily type of company to build something like they did in First Ward.  There’s just tremendous competition coming out of SouthEnd for the foreseeable future.

You all remember the building boom of apartments around Romare Bearden Park but that was during the Lowrise/Midrise Stage of SouthEnd which has now matured and is a beast.  It could be 2026/2027 before most of the convenient Apartment High Rise lots in SE are built out and the Pendulum swings back to Uptown.  Hell - even midtown may begin to compete with Uptown for High Rise Apartment dwellers once construction begins (possibly next year) on the Pappas & NWR buildings.  I know Id rather be in one of those buildings or in a SouthEnd Highrise with a expansive views of Uptown rather than in Uptown with partly obstructed views.  

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Excited for the Duke land sales and eager to get more details on the German developer's mixed-use project by the convention center.  Could be quite catalytic.

I'm a bit skeptical, but should Tepper's entertainment district concepts materialize and actually get funded and break ground, that could drive some new and significant vertical apartment development along Graham in Uptown as well as in whatever is designated to be the "entertainment district."  Ultimately, I don't think Tepper has much interest in an entertainment district.  I think the city is trying to position its contribution of taxpayer dollars to a project that's as inclusive as possible.  Like you can't just say, "giving public money to a stadium."  Instead, you've got to say the city is contributing funds to a new urban neighborhood with tons of affordable housing and service jobs to benefit lower-income families, and it happens to include a stadium that will benefit from the public infusion.

Edited June 13, 2022 by RANYC

[DM1LLS]

Do we have renderings of this project? I checked the last few pages and did not see anything. 

 

Sidenote....

Sorry I have not been on UP in awhile and unsure of what is happening at this site. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by DM1LLS

[TGIBridays]

29 minutes ago, DM1LLS said:

Do we have renderings of this project? I checked the last few pages and did not see anything. 

@KJHburgposted one on page 312.  

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by TGIBridays

[AirNostrumMAD]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Excited for the Duke land sales and eager to get more details on the German developer's mixed-use project by the convention center.  Could be quite catalytic.

I'm a bit skeptical, but should Tepper's entertainment district concepts materialize and actually get funded and break ground, that could drive some new and significant vertical apartment development along Graham in Uptown as well as in whatever is designated to be the "entertainment district."  Ultimately, I don't think Tepper has much interest in an entertainment district.  I think the city is trying to position its contribution of taxpayer dollars to a project that's as inclusive as possible.  Like you can't just say, "giving public money to a stadium."  Instead, you've got to say the city is contributing funds to a new urban neighborhood with tons of affordable housing and service jobs to benefit lower-income families, and it happens to include a stadium that will benefit from the public infusion.

The hype for me is because it's dynamic. There is community, human scale streetscape, plenty of room for local artist, small business, town homes and low-rise homes build into larger developments, there is a dynamic set of community amenities (Lowe's, groceries, shopping), plenty of venues to know your neighbors (the numerous breweries or things like retro arcades, neater venues), bleeding into Dilworth, etc. The restaurants are way better too (Most restaurants uptown cater to business people or too formal versus those in SouthEnd/NoDa.) In SouthEnd/NoDa/Plaza, you can meet people who are your neighbors or strike conversations easier at various restaurants and hang-outs versus those in uptown. 

 

There is a big difference in going to uptown during events or for purpose (like work) or a convention center when it is much livelier and then there is being a resident. I lived at Catalyst and this was my walk from the convention center station often:

 

Waking up and going outside in your neighborhood in NoDa and SouthEnd feels much different than uptown can be. There's not enough sense of (local) community in the uptown core (I actually do like the portion near Frazier Park and bleeding into Morehead. It definitely feels office, convention center dominated with the occasional festivals. SouthEnd and NoDa, Plaza and other parts of the city feel more dynamic. Local energy. People-y. I was happier in even Lake Norman, even South Charlotte. Which was odd because I had always dreamt of living uptown and it was just too sterile when I actually got there as a resident. Developments I had previously thought were definitely going to change uptown really turned out to not be that great as a resident. That's personally why I am critical over the pedestrian level and streetscapes, etc. It's one thing to come to the city to a festival or football game and say "wow, look at all these tall buildings" while you're enjoying tens of thousands of people adding to the city during that given event and versus being a resident and going out on any given time and see parking decks, bland lobby's, etc. when there's not some large festival or after 6PM.

Edited June 13, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

48 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

The hype for me is because it's dynamic. There is community, human scale streetscape, plenty of room for local artist, small business, town homes and low-rise homes build into larger developments, there is a dynamic set of community amenities (Lowe's, groceries, shopping), plenty of venues to know your neighbors (the numerous breweries or things like retro arcades, neater venues), bleeding into Dilworth, etc. The restaurants are way better too (Most restaurants uptown cater to business people or too formal versus those in SouthEnd/NoDa.) In SouthEnd/NoDa/Plaza, you can meet people who are your neighbors or strike conversations easier at various restaurants and hang-outs versus those in uptown. 

 

There is a big difference in going to uptown during events or for purpose (like work) or a convention center when it is much livelier and then there is being a resident. I lived at Catalyst and this was my walk from the convention center station often:

 

Waking up and going outside in your neighborhood in NoDa and SouthEnd feels much different than uptown can be. There's not enough sense of (local) community in the uptown core (I actually do like the portion near Frazier Park and bleeding into Morehead. It definitely feels office, convention center dominated with the occasional festivals. SouthEnd and NoDa, Plaza and other parts of the city feel more dynamic. Local energy. People-y. I was happier in even Lake Norman, even South Charlotte. Which was odd because I had always dreamt of living uptown and it was just too sterile when I actually got there as a resident. Developments I had previously thought were definitely going to change uptown really turned out to not be that great as a resident. That's personally why I am critical over the pedestrian level and streetscapes, etc. It's one thing to come to the city to a festival or football game and say "wow, look at all these tall buildings" while you're enjoying tens of thousands of people adding to the city during that given event and versus being a resident and going out on any given time and see parking decks, bland lobby's, etc. when there's not some large festival or after 6PM.

CBD's are often pretty sterile and notwithstanding gloom and doom in some corners about workplace office space, I do believe office-heavy CBDs will survive and persist.  

I live abutting Uptown's 3rd ward, and between 3rd and 4th wards, I think uptown has stunning and under-rated, dense, mixed-use and quite livable urban villages as good as any in the Southeast.  

During my first visit to Montreal, I stayed in the CBD.  It was lame.  Much more fun in the Old City and the residential districts.  If Charlotte wants the growth of a "Streetscape living room" feel in more of its neighborhoods, it would be well-served eliminating all the setback requirements in the UDO, reducing parking requirements, and allowing more small business uses in N-1 zoning.

A quick glance at the UDO and associated place-type map seems to scream: "Small Businesses and their Small Business Owners are bad for Communities."  Baffling to me.  Allow locational flexibility to these businesses, and some aesthetic standards that don't offend the character of the neighborhood.  Hell, tell the businesses in N-1 they all have to have front porches and crepe myrtles and hire daily litter pick-up and weekly lawn & garden care, but at least you're giving them the option of more footprint within which to operate and serve community needs.

Edited June 13, 2022 by RANYC

[Hushpuppy321]

5 hours ago, RANYC said:

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Excited for the Duke land sales and eager to get more details on the German developer's mixed-use project by the convention center.  Could be quite catalytic.

I'm a bit skeptical, but should Tepper's entertainment district concepts materialize and actually get funded and break ground, that could drive some new and significant vertical apartment development along Graham in Uptown as well as in whatever is designated to be the "entertainment district."  Ultimately, I don't think Tepper has much interest in an entertainment district.  I think the city is trying to position its contribution of taxpayer dollars to a project that's as inclusive as possible.  Like you can't just say, "giving public money to a stadium."  Instead, you've got to say the city is contributing funds to a new urban neighborhood with tons of affordable housing and service jobs to benefit lower-income families, and it happens to include a stadium that will benefit from the public infusion.

Adressing those two thoughts highlighted;

SouthEnd is more vibrant (streetwise/pedestrian activity) currently than Uptown and also a very hot in-demand neighborhood for Lease Up & Property Sales (Townhomes) and is tough to compete with right now.  Any HighRise Apartment Developer is taking a risk building in Uptown Currently with the Gravitational Pull of SouthEnd now that High Rise Residential there is coming into its own.  Lennar lucked out with their building.  By the time Leasing begins in SE Apartments they’ll be leased mostly up at the Ellington (if not full already).  I think that SouthEnd is going to dominate in HighRise Apartment construction for the next 5 or 6 years.  After that - if Teppers ED has started to grow (pun intended) then that will increase the gravitational pull back to the LU/Stadium area some.  Right now LU’s gravity pull has only been for Office so far.  That plus the fact that ‘Close-In’ portions of SouthEnd & Gold District may literally be close to being Built Out by that timeframe so developers would need to move back Uptown or look further down in SouthEnd.  Either way, The New Bern Station to Morehead Street area is going to totally dominate in the coming 5/6 years because it’s desirable and much less risky than Uptown is for High Rise.  Anything built in that corridor will fill up/lease up quickly and is a much less risky bet than competing HighRise Lease Up Uptown would be.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Hushpuppy321

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Adressing those two thoughts highlighted;

SouthEnd is more vibrant (streetwise/pedestrian activity) currently than Uptown and also a very hot in-demand neighborhood for Lease Up & Property Sales (Townhomes) and is tough to compete with right now.  Any HighRise Apartment Developer is taking a risk building in Uptown Currently with the Gravitational Pull of SouthEnd now that High Rise Residential there is coming into its own.  Lennar lucked out with their building.  By the time Leasing begins in SE Apartments they’ll be leased mostly up at the Ellington (if not full already).  I think that SouthEnd is going to dominate in HighRise Apartment construction for the next 5 or 6 years.  After that - if Teppers ED has started to grow (pun intended) then that will increase the gravitational pull back to the LU/Stadium area some.  Right now LU’s gravity pull has only been for Office so far.  That plus the fact that ‘Close-In’ portions of SouthEnd & Gold District may literally be close to being Built Out by that timeframe so developers would need to move back Uptown or look further down in SouthEnd.  Either way, The New Bern Station to Morehead Street area is going to totally dominate in the coming 5/6 years because it’s desirable and much less risky than Uptown is for High Rise.  Anything built in that corridor will fill up/lease up quickly and is a much less risky bet than competing HighRise Lease Up Uptown would be.

SE has a vibe, not denying that, but it would be interesting to get actual foot traffic data on SE versus Uptown. 

It tends to be event-specific, but I'd guess that actual foot traffic data in Uptown should show it still has more total pedestrian activity than in any other district in the city.  Sure, the foot traffic may not happen when you want or when you idealize it happening, like many want to ignore boring corporates grabbing lunch or very predictable upticks because of major pro sports games, but when Uptown shines, it can really shine and between 4th ward or families checking out Shrek at the Children's Theater or 7th Street Market or dinner and an evening performance at the Belk or rooftop drinks at the Bohemian or a Knights' Game or Charlotte FC, Uptown is likely more dominant based on actual data without biases. 

We'll see on SE residential high-rises...sure plenty are proposed, we'll see what comes out of the ground.   The Radius is a high-rise and is in Dilworth.

With the exception of the Greystar project along South, we might be surprised to see high-rise residential in Midtown or at Metropolitan before the next one breaks ground in SE.  I happen to be skeptical of Riverside and think we'll get a very pared down project when ground is actually broken, but that's just me (I hope my premonitions are off on that because I actually like the Riverside project).

Edited June 13, 2022 by RANYC

[Hushpuppy321]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

SE has a vibe, not denying that, but it would be interesting to get actual foot traffic data on SE versus Uptown. 

It tends to be event-specific, but I'd guess that actual foot traffic data in Uptown should show it still has more total pedestrian activity than in any other district in the city.  Sure, the foot traffic may not happen when you want or when you idealize it happening, like many want to ignore boring corporates grabbing lunch or very predictable upticks because of major pro sports games, but when Uptown shines, it can really shine and between 4th ward or families checking out Shrek at the Children's Theater or 7th Street Market or dinner and an evening performance at the Belk or rooftop drinks at the Bohemian or a Knights' Game or Charlotte FC, Uptown is likely more dominant based on actual data without biases. 

We'll see on SE residential high-rises...sure plenty are proposed, we'll see what comes out of the ground.   The Radius is a high-rise and is in Dilworth.

With the exception of the Greystar project along South, we might be surprised to see high-rise residential in Midtown or at Metropolitan before the next one breaks ground in SE.  I happen to be skeptical of Riverside and think we'll get a very pared down project when ground is actually broken, but that's just me (I hope my premonitions are off on that because I actually like the Riverside project).

You may be correct about total foot traffic numbers - SouthEnd though has foot traffic at times Uptown is very quiet but big events drive big numbers.  I do believe High Rise Residential will be dominant outside of Uptown for the next 5 years as developers take advantage of the wonderful skyline views you can get from just outside of the I-277 Loop.  Frankly, I’m surprised it’s taken them so long to do so.  Midtown, Dilworth, SouthEnd and Plaza Midwood would Highrises would have awesome views.

Anyway - If Honeywell does executes their option on another lot at LU, the site pretty much will only be a mostly Office/Corporate environment.  Even though it’s not a full live work play site, I still like it.

[Blue_Devil]

4 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

You may be correct about total foot traffic numbers - SouthEnd though has foot traffic at times Uptown is very quiet but big events drive big numbers.  I do believe High Rise Residential will be dominant outside of Uptown for the next 5 years as developers take advantage of the wonderful skyline views you can get from just outside of the I-277 Loop.  Frankly, I’m surprised it’s taken them so long to do so.  Midtown, Dilworth, SouthEnd and Plaza Midwood would Highrises would have awesome views.

Anyway - If Honeywell does executes their option on another lot at LU, the site pretty much will only be a mostly Office/Corporate environment.  Even though it’s not a full live work play site, I still like it.

I think there would have to be apartment/hotel at the final space. But who knows at this point. Apartments across the street will help LU retail though

[KJHburg]

Crane base planted today for this mystery tower unless you saw you the post a page or so back where the rendering was released accidentally.   But I would like to see more renderings especially from the street level of this 23 story tower anchored by Robinson Bradshaw.  

[KJHburg]

forgot to say it is one of 2 cranes to rise at the Mystery Tower according to Heede and they should know its their cranes. 

here is the photo proof of the crane base at the Mystery Tower (which everyone in commercial real estate and many others know all about)

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cey1gDQFp5u/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY%3D

Edited June 15, 2022 by KJHburg

[CLT Development]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:01 AM, RANYC said:

I think Uptown is pretty well-positioned because if you like frequenting NODA or Plaza, along with SE, you can be in the walkable center of it all in Uptown.

Its very poorly positioned actually. All its easily to assemble land is gone. Anything somewhat attainable is tied up with slow moving parties. Its Public Private Partnership or bust. 

On 6/13/2022 at 7:18 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

 Even though it’s not a full live work play site, I still like it.

Nah, its terrible for the city. We need residents, we need housing, Uptown is a snooze fest if its just 9-5 office.

Edited June 15, 2022 by CLT Development

[CLT Development]

On 6/13/2022 at 11:01 AM, RANYC said:

Personally, I don't get SE's hype and it's definitely a tough sell to discriminating travelers/tourists, but that's neither here nor there.

tough sell? theres shopping, the rail trail, bars, restaurants and street activity. It has surpassed Uptown in interest, unless you like sports and cultural attractions which are not everyday things, and usually are followed by or proceeded with one of the things I mentioned above. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by CLT Development

[nyxmike]

48 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

Its very poorly positioned actually. All its easily to assemble land is gone. Anything somewhat attainable is tied up with slow moving parties. Its Public Private Partnership or bust. 

Nah, its terrible for the city. We need residents, we need housing, Uptown is a snooze fest if its just 9-5 office.

Just curious and sorry if it's off topic but... there's still parking lots/decks in Third Ward and low density garden apartments in Fourth Ward. What's the likelihood any of these get converted to higher density/high rise apartments or condos? I agree on needing more housing Uptown. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by nyxmike

[Synopsis101]

Tryon could be a true destination, but it’s filled with bank branches, office lobbies,  law firms, reality offices and a FedEx shop. 

[Madison Parkitect]

11 hours ago, nyxmike said:

Just curious and sorry if it's off topic but... there's still parking lots/decks in Third Ward

The problem is all those lots and decks are owned by the same guy who seems to just want to own it without actually doing anything with it.

[RANYC]

14 hours ago, CLT Development said:

tough sell? theres shopping, the rail trail, bars, restaurants and street activity. It has surpassed Uptown in interest, unless you like sports and cultural attractions which are not everyday things, and usually are followed by or proceeded with one of the things I mentioned above. 

I know familiarity breeds contempt, and maybe you're over uptown, but ahhh yea, sports & cultural attractions are actually huge amenities, especially for out-of-towners/tourists, and Charlotte is distinct to a degree because its major institutions are all packed into a pretty compact area in the heart of its urban center.  There's no sea of surface parking surrounding its football stadium or arena, and I think that's something it should celebrate.

New amenities under construction or breaking ground will be additional draws for out-of-towners, like the library and Carolina Theater and this cultural corridor/"woonerf" that Metropolitan will incorporate in 7th and Tryon (breaking ground in under 60 days).

Uptown has signature park space, something South End lacks from what I've gathered.  There's no Romare Bearden or First Ward Park or 4th Ward Park equivalent in South End, a signature "commons" that, in my opinion, should anchor any compelling urban district.  Visitors enjoy the rooftop bar scene in uptown, which SE largely lacks as far as I know although that may change.  Will be a nice addition to get the Museum of Illusions in Uptown...a new space of intrigue that's just hard to find in South End.  Also fun to walk through 4th ward and end up at Discovery Place's planetarium, which is something quite special if no one on here has seen it since refurbishment.

I always include South End in my tours, just as I include Noda and Plaza and Freedom Park, and all together as an integrated presentation of center city Charlotte, they get compelling reactions.  But I just am not as glum on Uptown.

South End is fine...certainly enjoyable for locals and I enjoy it also, but versus the "stroll districts" of so many other cities in the country, it's still just ok.  What it lacks versus the hype:

• No cluster of dozens & dozens of retail boutiques all lined up one after the other with throngs of shoppers where one might spend the day revamping one's wardrobe
• No row containing a cluster of differentiated home decor options with an array of craftsmen and artisans
• No true place-making urban avenues where one might see throngs of people strolling...certainly not South-End or South Tryon race-ways through much of South End
• No varied live music scene 
• No urban-style gallery district, but I may not be aware of it because I've not done an intensive search for this since livin here

Frankly, I've yet to even see a true urban-style gallery district anywhere in Center City, but maybe that was more of an early-2000s phenomenon in cities.

Just my opinion. 

Lots of urban centers are having a tough go of it.  But I'm still bullish on Uptown, and like many places in the country, we're discovering that we want growth to skew more residential instead of corporate office over time, and that makes sense.  It'll get done.

One of my visitors did suggest to me that South End appears a lot less "diverse" than Uptown, a potential reason some in Charlotte may be so positive on its prospects relative to Uptown's.  But I told him I really didn't think that to be the case.

Edited June 15, 2022 by RANYC

[AirNostrumMAD]

21 minutes ago, Synopsis101 said:

Tryon could be a true destination, but it’s filled with bank branches, office lobbies,  law firms, reality offices and a FedEx shop. 

Uptown is 2 Sq. Miles. You could probably fit SouthEnd/Gold District/Dilworth and Morehead in there. It's not necessarily Tryon, it is nearly everywhere else in uptown with some exceptions  (a couple of blocks along College, a couple of blocks on church the rest is stained with parking structures), spanning several blocks along Stonewall (the rest is stained with parking structures or terrible lobbies). Historic 4th ward with the exception of roads not connecting is alright, I like the area west of the stadium and I hope all those structures are saved, neighborhood around Frazier dog park is good. 

It'd be nice to see a bunch low/mid-rises throughout uptown with affordable housing particularly in Wards 1 & 2. Having way more developments like Savoy and some like Crescent Stonewall (rather than waiting for high rises which i don't think is necessary for most of uptown). It'd be nice to have developments like the one in SouthEnd that is housing Sycamore Brewery. 

 

[carolinaboy]

14 minutes ago, RANYC said:

One of my visitors did suggest to me that South End appears a lot less "diverse" than Uptown, a potential reason some in Charlotte may be so positive on its prospects relative to Uptown's.  But I told him I really didn't think that to be the case.

Really? What a crappy thing to say. This type of comment and/or attitude is really getting tiresome on these forums.

[JerseyBoy]

1 hour ago, carolinaboy said:

Really? What a crappy thing to say. This type of comment and/or attitude is really getting tiresome on these forums.

Actually -- and I'm really not trying to throw any gasoline on the fire here -- as someone who grew up in North Carolina (an hour away from Charlotte), lived in Atlanta and now resides in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, I don't think this visitor of @RANYC is all that wrong. (For what it's worth, I'm white.)

Let me just preface by saying, I love Charlotte. A lot. As a native North Carolinian, I'm so proud of what the city has become, and I try to visit at least several times a year to see all of the changes in person.

During these visits, I've spent a lot of time in South End, admiring and observing the rapid transformation that's taken place there. I'll take extensive walks through the neighborhood, go to breweries and try out some of the new restaurants there. I'm saying this because my following opinion isn't based on one drive through or a quick visit. 

Each time I've visited South End, the neighborhood has felt, well, extremely homogeneous. As soon as you cross 277 into the district, I feel like you're automatically hit with a younger, whiter, perhaps more privileged and "bro-y" vibe.  It's very reminiscent of some neighborhoods in Nashville or Atlanta's West Midtown district. 

I can understand, @carolinaboy, how observations like these might appear negative, but perception is a real thing for visitors to a city. Charlotte should be striving for inclusivity, equality and diversity. And if people of color from out of town who visit South End (or other parts of the city) feel like there isn't a place for them there or it's heavily segregated, they're more likely to go back to their friends and family and relay what they saw. Bad look for the city, IMO. 

(Note: I'm a journalist, so I operate off facts and statistics before coming to any judgment. I don't know what South End's demographics are like off-hand, so that's why I italicized "felt" and "feel." I don't have proof that my observations and feelings are rooted in fact.)

[RANYC]

51 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Really? What a crappy thing to say. This type of comment and/or attitude is really getting tiresome on these forums.

Wouldn't get too upset.  Maybe his reference was racial, but I took it more as alluding to the fact that Uptown is truly "urban," with a mix of "situations," which you'll find in absolutely every major city in the world...Paris to London to Berlin to Manhattan to yes, Uptown Charlotte.  

The occasional homeless guy on the streets or setting up camp at a bus stop.  Being approached by aggressive beggars in uptown.  South End doesn't have a central bus station, with all the characters you tend to see there.  No soup kitchen lines in South End.  Hardly any streetscape schizophrenia.  But the wandering schizos, the soup kitchen lines, the vagrants and beggars, the bundle of dirty blankets & shopping carts as a make-shift shelter are all common urban features of even the greatest cities in the world, and you brush that off because there's so much else to celebrate in a dense city environment like it's cultural institutions and creativity, and frankly, its authenticity.  Of course, we don't just sit back and abide these terrible human conditions, but they've persisted in big cities for thousands of years. 

• Poverty and desperation may always be among us.  Fear & Shunning don't have to be our response.

South End just a bit more cleaned up, and while it's nice that it's another place in Charlotte for walking around, it doesn't supplant Uptown and while Uptown may always have a greater "mix of situations," I still believe in its positioning as Charlotte evolves its thinking as a truly big & inclusive city.  

Edited June 15, 2022 by RANYC

[AirNostrumMAD]

 

19 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Wouldn't get too upset.  I think his reference was to the fact that Uptown is truly "urban," with a mix of "situations," which you'll find in absolutely every major city in the world...Paris to London to Berlin to Manhattan to yes, Uptown Charlotte.

The occasional homeless guy on the streets or setting up camp at a bus stop.  Being approached by aggressive beggars in uptown.  South End doesn't have a central bus station, with all the characters you tend to see there.  No soup kitchen lines in South End.  No streetscape schizophrenia.

South End just a bit more cleaned up...tidier as you walk about.

Here we go comparing Uptown to Berlin, Paris, London, Montreal, New York...

Do we really want to get into comparisons between Charlotte and San Francisco, Washington, Chicago, Barcelona, etc. in terms of urbanity? That would be so obnoxious because they're not comparable. Why not compare to San Diego, Austin, Tampa, Raleigh, Richmond, Minneapolis. Those are much more apples-to-apples.

And I'm sorry your friend equates people of color of having tents at bus stops, aggressive beggars with schizophrenia coming from their soup kitchen line... There are *plenty* of majority-black neighborhoods (or mixed) in Charlotte where it's not in the form of beggars and people sleeping in tents. Maybe go to black establishments, black owned business (which how many are in uptown versus white folk?). Nobody wants to live near beggars but even then. That's not why people prefer SouthEnd to Uptown.... At all... Look at how big of a deal gentrification is in some cities with white people moving into once black inner-city urban areas. They were dangerous. People chose to live there because it was a dynamic community. Even with any crime or even with the social distress, people admired the neighborhood. It's the same reason people are taking interest into SouthEnd. It's dynamic. Nothing to do with uptown being too "Diverse" (which is odd considering people consider it a playground for white folk but I digress).

This discussion was all about urbanity. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[carolinaboy]

17 minutes ago, JerseyBoy said:

Actually -- and I'm really not trying to throw any gasoline on the fire here -- as someone who grew up in North Carolina (an hour away from Charlotte), lived in Atlanta and now resides in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic, I don't think this visitor of @RANYC is all that wrong.

Let me just preface by saying, I love Charlotte. A lot. As a native North Carolinian, I'm so proud of what the city has become, and I try to visit at least several times a year to see all of the changes in person. Also, for what it's worth, I'm white.

During these visits, I've spent a lot of time in South End, admiring and observing the rapid transformation that's taken place there. I'll take extensive walks through the neighborhood, go to breweries and try out some of the new restaurants there. I'm saying this because my following opinion isn't based on one drive through or a quick visit. 

Each time I've visited South End, the neighborhood has felt, well, extremely homogeneous. As soon as you cross 277 into the district, I feel like you're automatically hit with a younger, whiter, perhaps more privileged and "bro-y" vibe.  It's very reminiscent of some neighborhoods in Nashville or Atlanta's West Midtown district. 

I can understand, @carolinaboy, how observations like these might appear negative, but perception is a real thing for visitors to a city. Charlotte should be striving for inclusivity, equality and diversity. And if people of color from out of town who visit South End (or other parts of the city) feel like there isn't a place for them there or it's heavily segregated, they're more likely to go back to their friends and family and relay what they saw. Bad look for the city, IMO. 

(Note: I'm a journalist, so I operate off facts and statistics before coming to any judgment. I don't know what South End's demographics are like off-hand, so that's why I italicized "felt" and "feel." I don't have proof that my observations and feelings are rooted in fact.)

Thanks for your perspective. I appreciate it.

[RANYC]

13 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

And I'm sorry your friend equates people of color of having tents at bus stops, aggressive beggars with schizophrenia coming from their soup kitchen line... 

He didn't equate them.  I even expressed in my post that I was doubtful his reference was racial, although it may have been.  Wasn't explicit.  You're making this a "people of color" issue with your response.

13 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Here we go comparing Uptown to Berlin, Paris, London, Montreal, New York...

Do we really want to get into comparisons between Charlotte and San Francisco, Washington, Chicago, Barcelona, etc. in terms of urbanity? That would be so obnoxious because they're not comparable. Why not compare to San Diego, Austin, Tampa, Raleigh, Richmond, Minneapolis. Those are much more apples-to-apples.

The post was not a full comparison of those cities.  It was showing a common thread among big cities, and Charlotte shares some space on that thread.  There's a difference between identifying a common thread, and a full-on comparison or trait-matching or benchmarking of cities.  And despite your name-calling, I have all the confidence I need that neither I nor my statements are "obnoxious."

Edited June 15, 2022 by RANYC