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Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)


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14 hours ago, CLT Development said:

Its very poorly positioned actually. All its easily to assemble land is gone. Anything somewhat attainable is tied up with slow moving parties. Its Public Private Partnership or bust. 

Nah, its terrible for the city. We need residents, we need housing, Uptown is a snooze fest if its just 9-5 office.

To be fair... Charlotte is a snooze fest from 9-5.

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1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

My personal experience is that South End has a far narrower band of age than uptown Charlotte. If there are age 50+ people walking to Jeni's and families with young children in Anthropologie (for examples) I have not seen it. Uptown has attractions and purposes for all ages, SouthEnd not so much (or at all).


But the goal post has been moving. It was why is SouthEnd becoming “the place” for urbanity and rivaling uptown in development. Particularly residential and some office development. 
 

In other cities, particularly more urban ones. There is a big problem with gentrification and people being pushed out by higher income people forcing others to have to move out of the neighborhood… that’s literally not happening in uptown nor really SouthEnd so much. No one’s going to see a few developments in uptown and say “man, this place is really gentrifying. I hope the small businesses and long-time locals get displaced.” ….

SouthEnd is booming due to its urbanity. Not because its “less diverse” or because uptown is such a “big city” (with grass fields near its main sq) 

People aren’t leaving uptown to SouthEnd in droves. SouthEnd is just taking potential growth from uptown. Because it’s more human scale, more lively, etc. 

The reason for the “bro” vibe in SouthEnd likely is more the fault of zoning and city planning. Wealthy or older white people, dual income or white families likely don’t want to live in those stick built apartments (townhomes, yeah. Nicer quality condos, sure.) They probably go buy a single family home with a yard. Minorities as a whole may not have the same wealth equities that allow them to rent these new urban apartments. Lower income people on general can’t afford anything urban in Charlotte. They’re stuck in the garden-style homes off Woodlawn, Arrowood, etc. 

I think I’m also particularly defensive of the Charlotte urban crowd here because it’s not urbanites who are afraid of beggars, homelessness, etc. it’s typically the suburbanites and visitors and office workers from the suburbs. Urbanites are more likely to be kind and even know the local homeless. To be against aggressive enforcements to clear homeless people from benches. It’s not those factors contributing to people choosing SouthEnd over uptown as an urban resident it’s 

1.) Lack of affordable housing AND low income housing. 

2.) The immense amount of surface lots, gravel lots, grass fields, blank concrete parking garages (excluding Tryon, Stonewall, around Romare and a little bit of Church and a little beotch of College among some patches of single family homes) 

3.) uptown does cater too much to visitors, event crowds, and business. Which is fine if tryon street was that way or a couple streets. But this is 2 entire sq. Miles. Tryon street is but one road…)

4.) There needs to be more dense development creeping into all the inner neighborhoods. Missing middle. 

5.) Lack of social gatherings etc for people that aren’t uptown for a game, or a date, on business, for prom. Kings Kitchen, Essex, etc. aren’t places people typically want to go daily and families can’t afford that either. 


For the record, I do think SouthEnd is homogenous but that’s again why I am not the biggest fan of these “entertainment” districts etc and have consistently said I’d like to see more high schools uptown, more lower income housing surrounding a future Stadium and being a huge component of a stadium. That’s why I mention things like instead of lobbies or empty retail spaces the city needs to subsidize child care in the urban areas. Ally Center has done outreach to female and minority business owners. Has legacy union? Lots of ingredients go into making a place for “everyone” and not just “some”. Aquariums, entertainment districts, office towers don’t make a place more equitable.

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21 hours ago, nyxmike said:

Just curious and sorry if it's off topic but... there's still parking lots/decks in Third Ward and low density garden apartments in Fourth Ward. What's the likelihood any of these get converted to higher density/high rise apartments or condos? I agree on needing more housing Uptown. 

The parking decks are fairly likely to happen eventually, though the owner is comfortable with his profits. One of the low density garden apartments has a better shot, but you would also be removing borderline NOAH housing in uptown for luxury housing. 

10 hours ago, RANYC said:

I know familiarity breeds contempt, and maybe you're over uptown, but ahhh yea, sports & cultural attractions are actually huge amenities, especially for out-of-towners/tourists, and Charlotte is distinct to a degree because its major institutions are all packed into a pretty compact area in the heart of its urban center.  There's no sea of surface parking surrounding its football stadium or arena, and I think that's something it should celebrate.

New amenities under construction or breaking ground will be additional draws for out-of-towners, like the library and Carolina Theater and this cultural corridor/"woonerf" that Metropolitan will incorporate in 7th and Tryon (breaking ground in under 60 days).

Uptown has signature park space, something South End lacks from what I've gathered.  There's no Romare Bearden or First Ward Park or 4th Ward Park equivalent in South End, a signature "commons" that, in my opinion, should anchor any compelling urban district.  Visitors enjoy the rooftop bar scene in uptown, which SE largely lacks as far as I know although that may change.  Will be a nice addition to get the Museum of Illusions in Uptown...a new space of intrigue that's just hard to find in South End.  Also fun to walk through 4th ward and end up at Discovery Place's planetarium, which is something quite special if no one on here has seen it since refurbishment.

I always include South End in my tours, just as I include Noda and Plaza and Freedom Park, and all together as an integrated presentation of center city Charlotte, they get compelling reactions.  But I just am not as glum on Uptown.

South End is fine...certainly enjoyable for locals and I enjoy it also, but versus the "stroll districts" of so many other cities in the country, it's still just ok.  What it lacks versus the hype:

  • No cluster of dozens & dozens of retail boutiques all lined up one after the other with throngs of shoppers where one might spend the day revamping one's wardrobe
  • No row containing a cluster of differentiated home decor options with an array of craftsmen and artisans
  • No true place-making urban avenues where one might see throngs of people strolling...certainly not South-End or South Tryon race-ways through much of South End
  • No varied live music scene 
  • No urban-style gallery district, but I may not be aware of it because I've not done an intensive search for this since livin here

Frankly, I've yet to even see a true urban-style gallery district anywhere in Center City, but maybe that was more of an early-2000s phenomenon in cities.

Just my opinion. 

Lots of urban centers are having a tough go of it.  But I'm still bullish on Uptown, and like many places in the country, we're discovering that we want growth to skew more residential instead of corporate office over time, and that makes sense.  It'll get done.

One of my visitors did suggest to me that South End appears a lot less "diverse" than Uptown, a potential reason some in Charlotte may be so positive on its prospects relative to Uptown's.  But I told him I really didn't think that to be the case.

lol, look me up and let me know if I'm "over uptown and cultural institutions"

Edited by CLT Development
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2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:


But the goal post has been moving. It was why is SouthEnd becoming “the place” for urbanity and rivaling uptown in development. Particularly residential and some office development. 
 

In other cities, particularly more urban ones. There is a big problem with gentrification and people being pushed out by higher income people forcing others to have to move out of the neighborhood… that’s literally not happening in uptown nor really SouthEnd so much. No one’s going to see a few developments in uptown and say “man, this place is really gentrifying. I hope the small businesses and long-time locals get displaced.” ….

SouthEnd is booming due to its urbanity. Not because its “less diverse” or because uptown is such a “big city” (with grass fields near its main sq) 

People aren’t leaving uptown to SouthEnd in droves. SouthEnd is just taking potential growth from uptown. Because it’s more human scale, more lively, etc. 

The reason for the “bro” vibe in SouthEnd likely is more the fault of zoning and city planning. Wealthy or older white people, dual income or white families likely don’t want to live in those stick built apartments (townhomes, yeah. Nicer quality condos, sure.) They probably go buy a single family home with a yard. Minorities as a whole may not have the same wealth equities that allow them to rent these new urban apartments. Lower income people on general can’t afford anything urban in Charlotte. They’re stuck in the garden-style homes off Woodlawn, Arrowood, etc. 

I think I’m also particularly defensive of the Charlotte urban crowd here because it’s not urbanites who are afraid of beggars, homelessness, etc. it’s typically the suburbanites and visitors and office workers from the suburbs. Urbanites are more likely to be kind and even know the local homeless. To be against aggressive enforcements to clear homeless people from benches. It’s not those factors contributing to people choosing SouthEnd over uptown as an urban resident it’s 

1.) Lack of affordable housing AND low income housing. 

2.) The immense amount of surface lots, gravel lots, grass fields, blank concrete parking garages (excluding Tryon, Stonewall, around Romare and a little bit of Church and a little beotch of College among some patches of single family homes) 

3.) uptown does cater too much to visitors, event crowds, and business. Which is fine if tryon street was that way or a couple streets. But this is 2 entire sq. Miles. Tryon street is but one road…)

4.) There needs to be more dense development creeping into all the inner neighborhoods. Missing middle. 

5.) Lack of social gatherings etc for people that aren’t uptown for a game, or a date, on business, for prom. Kings Kitchen, Essex, etc. aren’t places people typically want to go daily and families can’t afford that either. 


For the record, I do think SouthEnd is homogenous but that’s again why I am not the biggest fan of these “entertainment” districts etc and have consistently said I’d like to see more high schools uptown, more lower income housing surrounding a future Stadium and being a huge component of a stadium. That’s why I mention things like instead of lobbies or empty retail spaces the city needs to subsidize child care in the urban areas. Ally Center has done outreach to female and minority business owners. Has legacy union? Lots of ingredients go into making a place for “everyone” and not just “some”. Aquariums, entertainment districts, office towers don’t make a place more equitable.

big time agree, except aquariums, they absolutely make a place more equitable. The amount of kids (from every corner of Charlotte) that get bussed into Discovery Place and the Mint during the school year (which I see first hand) is incredible. 

Edited by CLT Development
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big time agree, except aquariums, they absolutely make a place more equitable. The amount of kids (from every corner of Charlotte) that get bussed into Discovery Place and the Mint during the school year (which I see first hand) is incredible. 

Can vouch for the aquarium issue- Baltimore’s aquarium (where I live now) is used primarily by schools, attracting children and families from all social strata [emoji1308]


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2 hours ago, CLT Development said:

lol, look me up and let me know if I'm "over uptown and cultural institutions"

I mean, I only respond to latest posts on UP.  Your post said "Uptown has lost interest to South End unless you count cultural institutions," and I'm just reinforcing that those institutions (cultural, historical, sports, urban commons) are enormously key and should always put the interest level for a downtown over satellite neighborhoods.  Again, satellite neighborhoods are cool and I'm glad we have them, whether South End or NODA or Plaza, but this idea of Uptown's impending demise and capitulation to South End is just over-blown, IMO.

Ultimately, I want everything in center city to thrive.  And even if Charlotte never becomes a party place, my vision for the city is that we're healthy, that the city's design encourages healthy living, intellectual enrichment, safety, gathering, and that anyone anywhere in the city can safely get about on foot, transit, bicycle or with micro-alternatives with ease and convenience and confidence in their security.

Edited by RANYC
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8 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

@CLT Development we need to have an UP meetup with accompanying walking tour of uptown.   We should  meet first in the air conditioned comfort of the Mint Museum one Saturday and end the tour under the Live Oak at Ally Bank Center.    and @RANYC you will have to come.  

Meh, I'm unclear on whether to take all this to the next level, in-person.  I learn a lot reading different viewpoints and hearing insights and differences of opinion (or of assumption) on here, but no offense, some of you are a moody bunch and differences of opinion come with a snipe and a snarl, and i'd rather keep that snipe and snarl at a distance, lol.  Less drama in life, not more.  Not you though @KJHburg...a very gracious, diplomatic contributor.

Edited by RANYC
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4 hours ago, CLT Development said:

big time agree, except aquariums, they absolutely make a place more equitable. The amount of kids (from every corner of Charlotte) that get bussed into Discovery Place and the Mint during the school year (which I see first hand) is incredible. 

I’ll actually agree on that, you’re right. 

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How many times a year do you visit an aquarium? Atlanta has the largest in the world.
(edit - sorry, now #2. superseded in the last  

Not sure if this was meant for me or open to anyone but I’ll respond nonetheless! Haven’t went to Atlanta’s- it’s too far (for an aquarium) also had the opportunity to go a few times but couldn’t. I’m sure it’s spectacular. Maybe I’ll decide to go one day. I’ve gone to sea life in concord mills a few times it’s small but I think it’s cool. It’s like art but dynamic and it’s intriguing. It’s also definitely a draw for kids having one uptown would definitely bring a lot of people together there as stated above. Having one in Charlotte would definitely be a plus in my book and I’m sure to others too. The more attractions and the more diverse they are the better. Especially in uptown. (More housing as well ; ) )
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*Anyone else getting a lot of UP ads nowadays? 

Hard to tell with all the renderings (blue font) but since there is going to be a parking garage, do they still plan on creating direct access to BOAT? IIRC, the BOAT blank wall was designed to easily get knocked down to connect to this project u/c similar to how Deloitte is connected. 
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2 hours ago, tozmervo said:

That's a really short walking tour

It is part of my 5 minute lunch break walking tours.  But really it would probably go up Tryon to 8th Street then look up that way and then head back to the live oak. 

2 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

*Anyone else getting a lot of UP ads nowadays? 

Hard to tell with all the renderings (blue font) but since there is going to be a parking garage, do they still plan on creating direct access to BOAT? IIRC, the BOAT blank wall was designed to easily get knocked down to connect to this project u/c similar to how Deloitte is connected. 
 

Getting lots of pop up ads yes for everything under the sun from a Rodeo in Winston Salem to local stuff. 

anyway yes I think the tower will be connected like Deloitte tower is as those are pop out panels not sure yet since the only rendering I have seen is a top down rendering posted by someone pretty reliable a few pages back. 

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