Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[go_vertical]

This thing is gonna get watered down to the point where it will be a boring, utilitarian concrete structure with some simple lighting slapped on it.  That's it. 

Ive grown so jaded with Charlotte's "ambitious" development plans.  It seems like a vast majority of them end up being nothing like they are sold to the citizens. 

[JRCLT]

This thing is gonna get watered down to the point where it will be a boring, utilitarian concrete structure with some simple lighting slapped on it.  That's it. 
Ive grown so jaded with Charlotte's "ambitious" development plans.  It seems like a vast majority of them end up being nothing like they are sold to the citizens. 

I think this shouldn’t happen here…though the bridge already look minimalist as it was. Those railing completely look cheap, but idk what material they’re made of or if that’s the final design yet.

[BJKM]

[DJ8hep]

More from the ground!

[QCxpat]

Today 9:10 a.m.

Edited April 6, 2023 by QCxpat

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

Honest question. I don’t know who’s in charge of retail for LU but very curious why not a single retail spot has been filled. Parking deck has been done for years, Honeywell has been done, Deloitte has been done. I know it’s still an “active” worksite but just seems odd that there’s been no movement anywhere on LU. Lack of residential and design of LU aside (know the incoming comments coming lol), but just seems like the ppl in charge of retail for this site have severely failed. I’ve said from the very beginning that I’ll hold judgement aside until the full buildout but just seeing Ally and now Duke fill all their spots with ease is disconcerting. 

[KJHburg]

They are trying to market their retail space but at this point not sure why they they haven't gotten anyone but the Night Swim Coffee in the lobby of BOAT.  

They have a total of 55.124 sq ft of retail yet to be leased:

25,244 sq ft in the new 600 Tryon tower under construction

7840 sq ft in the 650 Tryon tower Deloitte

8040 sq ft in the Honeywell tower on Mint

14,000 sq ft in the Mega parking garage along S Church and in the promenade to the side.

Even a 7-11 in one of those garage spaces would be good to get something going.  

 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

^That’s a lot of retail! It’s in too good of a location to fail. Let’s hope the last and very big parcel is residential/hotel. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by CharlotteWkndBuzz

[CLT Development]

11 hours ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

^That’s a lot of retail! It’s in too good of a location to fail. Let’s hope the last and very big parcel is residential/hotel. 

A couple reasons: 

1. They have made no concessions on pricing. I have friends who have looked at them and they are still top of the market despite their many shortcomings.

2. They built almost all of these spaces with no viable outdoor spaces, even where it was easy to plug in (Honeywell) they plopped giant overgrown planters.

3. Church Street is in perpetual darkness because they built as close to the sidewalk as humanly possible and the giant elevated walkway

4. 720 South Church's parking deck entrances make no sense and it seems like theres a traffic jam there constantly, making that area just feel that much less attractive for retail

5. Deloitte's front patio seems like a easy win, but those columns are MASSIVE and take up 40% of the patio, leaving a pretty poorly designed/situated space that can fit only a hand full of 4 tops.

6. They put lobbies where retail should have gone and retail where lobbies should have gone

Edited April 7, 2023 by CLT Development

[Madison Parkitect]

59 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

A couple reasons: 

1. They have made no concessions on pricing. I have friends who have looked at them and they are still top of the market despite their many shortcomings.

2. They built almost all of these spaces with no viable outdoor spaces, even where it was easy to plug in (Honeywell) they plopped giant overgrown planters.

3. Church Street is in perpetual darkness because they built as close to the sidewalk as humanly possible and the giant elevated walkway

4. 720 South Church's parking deck entrances make no sense and it seems like theres a traffic jam there constantly, making that area just feel that much less attractive for retail

5. Deloitte's front patio seems like a easy win, but those columns are MASSIVE and take up 40% of the patio, leaving a pretty poorly designed/situated space that can fit only a hand full of 4 tops.

6. They put lobbies where retail should have gone and retail where lobbies should have gone

This is exactly right. Where as the Ally complex did a great job of prioritizing their retail and designing it all in a way that each space got their own little storefront design with decent outdoor areas and a good plaza for the whole complex, LU was designed extremely poorly for retail. Lincoln Harris became as big as they did by designing office parks; that's basically what LU is.

[ArchiCLT]

Several years ago, I spoke with someone familiar with the project at LS3P, about the overall design aesthetic. Remember when we just complained about the neoclassical/1980's suburban office park design, and not the lack of retail?

They said Lincoln Harris dictated what they wanted, and they "bit their tongue" and gave them that design. I'm looking at you too, Capitol Towers! This will take more than SouthPark Grill's bright blue awnings to succeed. Oh wait, they're now permanently closed too...

[Madison Parkitect]

27 minutes ago, ArchiCLT said:

Several years ago, I spoke with someone familiar with the project at LS3P, about the overall design aesthetic. Remember when we just complained about the neoclassical/1980's suburban office park design, and not the lack of retail?

They said Lincoln Harris dictated what they wanted, and they "bit their tongue" and gave them that design. I'm looking at you too, Capitol Towers! This will take more than SouthPark Grill's bright blue awnings to succeed. Oh wait, they're now permanently closed too...

You can always tell a Lincoln Harris building, from Ballantyne to SouthPark to Uptown. They're all the same out-of-date style.

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

They’re going to have be smart with who they bring in. Despite the flaws, there should be enough foot traffic to sustain these spots after full buildout and esp with BOA stadium events. Also, Ever increasing RTO (just walk uptown during lunch hours). Def agree with #6 though. That grassy courtyard could have been flanked by retail on all sides similar to the design of the new lending tree building. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by CharlotteWkndBuzz

[kermit]

Recent posts here got me thinking about the earliest days of this thread. I thought I would repost some of the discussion from back then. None of this is intended to be criticism of any posters, just a reminder of how much hope we had for retail here and how totally Lincoln Harris failed on every bit of this project other than office (retail, residential, public space and circulation were all discussed at one point). All this is doubly ironic given the current weaknesses in the office market and the current (post pandemic) need for more consumer/residential activity in Uptown.

On 6/26/2015 at 4:53 PM, CLTProductions said:

I've heard through the grapevine that Lincoln Harris is talking with Simon Malls about the site

 

On 6/27/2015 at 12:08 PM, CLTProductions said:

I've heard from 3 places that LH is talking to Simon. Could be rumors spread across the same group of people, but where there's smoke there's fire.....

 

On 12/16/2015 at 8:44 AM, Prodev said:

I'd be willing to bet the farm that this won't be an indoor mall, or a mall at all. Given the size of the land, this will likely be master planned and built out in phases over time. I'm sure there's a large retail component planned, but I'd be surprised if it included a traditional mall anchor box of anything larger than an H&M type junior box user. I would imagine BEST CASE it'll look something like a scaled down (and value engineered) version of Brickell City Centre in Miami without the indoor component- http://www.brickellcitycentre.com/ 

 

On 3/3/2016 at 7:39 AM, Guest said:

I do have insider info I'm keeping back. Mainly for confidentiality. I know pretty specific details on this project that at least two unrelated contacts have given me strikingly similar numbers. I can't confirm Simon, because neither could, but I can confirm we will add 2.5-3M sq feet of total uses with this project. Hotel, Retail, Residential, and Commercial. I suspect we will see phases, starting from Tryon towards BofA. 1/8-1/6 of the total sq footage will be retail. I posted the little nugget earlier as confirmation that LH is out there marketing their project and lining up tenants. Can't break down specifics, but here's a general idea of what I know, or at least have heard.

 

On 7/13/2016 at 9:52 AM, SouthEndCLT811 said:

Getting my hopes up for something along the lines of Victory Park in Dallas, outside of the American Airlines Center.  Admittedly selectively picked a great image to share but it's a planned (or in progress??) big mixed used area around the arena.  Just something that funneled people into the stadium as shown below would be a pretty cool space.

http://victorypark.com/new-victory-park/

http://s3.amazonaws.com/placester-wordpress/blogs.dir/7439/files/2014/08/victory-park-202942.jpg

 

On 8/3/2016 at 11:19 PM, Guest said:

Screw it. I'll just share it. 

The scope I heard a 6 months back was:

$2B +

1.2M office, 800-1000 hotel, 1000 residential, 200-300k retail. 

I don't want people thinking this massive site will only have a single office tower, so I'll take one for the team.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by kermit

[CLTProductions]

LOLOLOLOL ah, the days when I thought LH wasn't an absolute joke. 

[15895]

So are we allowed to criticize the project yet or are there still people out there who will rip heads off saying to give it a chance, it’s not fully built, etc? Lol. 

It was pretty obvious, years ago at this point, that the pedestrian experience was a huge missed opportunity which is a shame given the footprint, scope and scale of the project that scored tenants most could only dream of in one mega project. & it’s sort of annoying Crescent was very, very considerate of the pedestrian experience which could’ve created synergies for a pretty special corridor & benefitted both properties had Lincoln Harris had the same community out reach & the same street-level focus crescent did. 

Wasn’t it even the case Lincoln Harris didn’t care too much to post many more renderings of the last buildings or something because they were annoyed by criticism? Or am I just making that up? 

Huge missed opportunity. It looks like all they cared about attracting for their retail was Potbellies, a dry cleaners, a Starbucks that’s closed on the weekends and maybe a Kinko’s… I’m not sure how the writing wasn’t on the wall for some that this was going to be a soul crushing, sterile area devoid of people outside of office hours. That’s literally how it was developed. They literally posted these exact plans a while ago & it should’ve been obvious this would be the outcome. Sometimes it’s good to be vocal about criticisms - being proactive is a lot easier than being reactive. Whether that’s CATS or legacy union. 

Some of the things addressed by CLT Development aren’t easy fixes (or even really possible to change) but right on the money. The easiest fix would be varying the retail unit facades - particularly on the passeo towards the Panther’s stadium. And it should be double the width so there can be plenty of outdoor seating for restaurants. It’d be nice to have a pergola type thing over it with strand lights or something. That spot has potential but still. It’s a little isolated (because it’s cut off from the energy of Tryon and Ally Center to easily be a popular destination yet but definitely still opportunity. A modern version of Latta Arcade. And that could be nice with the rehabbed former Duke HQ Communist building. That is a nice looking project. But that passeo is like the last bit of hope. 

What makes SouthEnd good is the contiguous vibrancy. We need that contiguous good urbanity in uptown as opposed to being spotty with some developments being good and then broken by sterile developments. I don’t like the excuse “would you prefer it not have been built and attracted jobs.” It’s not an either/or. It’s healthier long-term for the owners of these office towers if they make these areas more attractive to people IMO. 
 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[BJKM]

Updates mainly for the top of the Deloitte garage. They have added in plant lighting as well as what could be an elevator/stairwell. They’re pressure washing the roof today. Maybe this is more than an amenity deck?

[DJ8hep]

Updates mainly for the top of the Deloitte garage. They have added in plant lighting as well as what could be an elevator/stairwell. They’re pressure washing the roof today. Maybe this is more than an amenity deck?
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/FC341543-7A86-4310-8809-C738D3A55F79.thumb.jpeg.ad3f06d1412e0bdcf4875508933c9eab.jpeg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/C49EE764-E3E6-4F9E-8559-5AC9326D36B9.thumb.jpeg.2a4a6cfbc4a20288c1fe1b8ce27214b1.jpeg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/FB998945-7144-45CB-ABFB-95AF596B0F16.thumb.jpeg.015140cd6e5b8564b980f2406970bdc4.jpeg
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_04/B0F03F75-EEC7-41AC-A83E-62190F66710B.thumb.jpeg.d2b73663bb9f63ee5c010ec9202a26ef.jpeg

Update from the ground!

[KJHburg]

Yes it is amenity deck but someday several more floors of office space could be built on top of this wing to the BOAT.  

[CLT Development]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:12 AM, ArchiCLT said:

Several years ago, I spoke with someone familiar with the project at LS3P, about the overall design aesthetic. Remember when we just complained about the neoclassical/1980's suburban office park design, and not the lack of retail?

They said Lincoln Harris dictated what they wanted, and they "bit their tongue" and gave them that design. I'm looking at you too, Capitol Towers! This will take more than SouthPark Grill's bright blue awnings to succeed. Oh wait, they're now permanently closed too...

SouthPark Grill is a pretty dope Rhino Market Location now, but that was Highwoods doing.

On 4/7/2023 at 12:27 PM, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

They’re going to have be smart with who they bring in. Despite the flaws, there should be enough foot traffic to sustain these spots after full buildout and esp with BOA stadium events. Also, Ever increasing RTO (just walk uptown during lunch hours). Def agree with #6 though. That grassy courtyard could have been flanked by retail on all sides similar to the design of the new lending tree building. 

#7 Nobody is even allowed on the grass.

[CLT Development]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:29 PM, kermit said:

Recent posts here got me thinking about the earliest days of this thread. I thought I would repost some of the discussion from back then. None of this is intended to be criticism of any posters, just a reminder of how much hope we had for retail here and how totally Lincoln Harris failed on every bit of this project other than office (retail, residential, public space and circulation were all discussed at one point). All this is doubly ironic given the current weaknesses in the office market and the current (post pandemic) need for more consumer/residential activity in Uptown.

The crazy thing is (I was "GUEST," because I was asked to delete my former account by an employer) in 2015 I had a copy of the masterplan, these were the numbers they were shooting for. They were claiming they were taking risks, but continued to do exactly what they are great at, surburan office parks. 

On 4/7/2023 at 3:41 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

So are we allowed to criticize the project yet or are there still people out there who will rip heads off saying to give it a chance, it’s not fully built, etc? Lol. 

People get their heads ripped off when they judge things based on raw concrete lol, you have three finished towers to work with.

[CLT Development]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:27 PM, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

esp with BOA stadium events.

Having a packed house 30 something days a year does not a business make. 

[CharlotteWkndBuzz]

On 4/11/2023 at 7:32 PM, CLT Development said:

Having a packed house 30 something days a year does not a business make. 

Lol not disagreeing but some ppl think those 30 something days are  worth building multi billion dollar domes for. Other cities build dedicated sports/ballpark districts for stadium events. Just saying, events at any stadium really just bolster the foot traffic around the area…may not solve our problems but it helps. You noted lack of or shaded patio areas being the culprit for lack of retail signings at LU. I think it’s a deeper issue than just patio space.
 

I know you travel,RDF. Some of the best eats in Italy and other countries are in dark little alley ways no one knows about. If you’re good. You’re good and ppl will come. Ppl in charge of retail at LU are failing in my eyes. Hell, someone has been able to sign tenants to the Epicentre for heavens sake. Not exactly apples to apples but point is LU is in too damn of a good location to have not signed a single tenant yet. And no, I don’t count night swim or a bank branch lol. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by CharlotteWkndBuzz

[CLT Development]

46 minutes ago, CharlotteWkndBuzz said:

Lol not disagreeing but some ppl think those 30 something days are  worth building multi billion dollar domes for.

Those domes only have to be staffed those 30 days, and have lucrative tv contracts and public subsidies to keep them afloat,  the restaurants have staffing costs in a lot of cases 365 and customer needs to keep them afloat. Those stadium districts survive because there is a concerted and intentional effort to market them as such and make them a destination.

I think the fact that they centered their retail around a stadium used 30 days a year, and on Church Street beside a highway is their worst problem. Lack of character, outdoor seating, etc that I've outlined above also huge problem.

Edited April 12, 2023 by CLT Development

[BJKM]

17 hours ago, CLT Development said:

SouthPark Grill is a pretty dope Rhino Market Location now, but that was Highwoods doing.

#7 Nobody is even allowed on the grass.

FWIW I did see some guys on the grass yesterday looking at samples of turf.
 

We were at North Italia last night and LU could stand to take a note from the Railyard as far as how to do retail in this development. People have their opinions about retail in this area but there are a lot more than office people on the ground daily due to proximity to hotels and the convention center. I agree that church st is dumb and it feels more like a dark 3 lane alleyway than a place where retail would be.