Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[Niner National]

12 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

Regarding soft-goods retail in Uptown. The number one thing missing from the city is.... drum roll please .... people. 

Since we love to compare Charlotte to Denver, let's take a look at downtown Denver population: 73,000 vs Charlotte 15,500. Not only do the numbers speak for themselves but the difference is easily felt just by walking around town on say, a Saturday or Sunday.

Sure, there are people out and about but to describe it it as bustling with activity is a far stretch of the imagaination. Drunken crowds on a Saturday night isn't really the same thing as thousands of people out and about going about the daily run of the mill type of life stuff. 

Yes more and more people are moving into Uptown but the fact is we have a long, looooong way to go. 

This nails it.

I think we're pretty much expected to double the center city population in the next 7-8 years, but even then, we're still talking relatively few people. We have a long way to go before Uptown streets are active all hours of the day.

[R.Talbott]

5 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

Just another data point on local retail:  I was at SouthPark Friday, a week before Christmas and shopping for the missus' gifts. First stop was better women's clothing, second floor, the heart and soul of the store. Well supplied with sales help but only two customers in sight on the floor. I asked the experienced saleswoman (Dawn, she was wonderful) about business and she said "SLOW, all season" and assumes online as the issue. Then to the perfume counter, the one you encounter just as you enter the store from the enclosed mall access, and the clerk there echoed Dawn. Anecdotal to the max.

I was just there today and it looked like black Friday 

[Nick2]

I understand that it's apples to oranges comparing Uptown to Denver's downtown but those numbers aren't too accurate considering the "downtown" area of denver they're talking about it much larger than inside of the 277 loop. Even if you include southend, the downtown denver area used to get that 73k number is larger. When you include south end with uptown the population is about 30k as of now. Just something to think about.

As far as shopping goes, my generation is more about the trendy and unique. Typically, the mom and pop store, restaurant, bar, etc. is considerably more desired than any chains (unless it's something like whole foods or trader joes).

Just imagine how great south end and southern uptown will be for connectivity and street presence in only five years from now. The difference will be staggering.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

10 hours ago, Jayvee said:

Thank you. If not more. For all who complain about restaurants and such, understand that as a comparative city, we are playing catch up. It may seem like a lot all at once (because it is) be we severely lack the number of bars and restaurants a city like Denver has downtown. 

As far as retail goes, for soft goods, this project will have it but there needs to be an understanding of the marketplace. We all want it because it doesn't exist however brick and mortar retailers are losing money to online. Macy's is closing stores like mad because its cheaper for them to beef up their online presence. Sure the downtown retail stores make plenty of money but there needs to be critical mass for it and honestly charlotte is not there yet. We will be, but not yet. Makes integrating space for it into projects like this a challenge 

As far as "critical mass" is concerned, this reminds me of the same excuse people use to argue against fixed guideway transit, "there's not enough density".  If you use the same standard for retail Uptown that's used in suburban locations (population in a 5 mile, 10 mile radius) the residential and office population is as great as any other location in the region (if not greater).  Retail is a destination, and while it may not attract the same number of shoppers at night and on weekends, have you been to a suburban mall during a work week?  Ghostly.  The narrative needs to change -- designers and developers need to produce an exciting product.  Boston's Faneuil Hall premiered in the mid-1970's even as downtown retail, office and residents were fleeing Boston.  The idea that Uptown Charlotte isn't "big" enough, or "dense" enough to support major retail is lame.  

[R.Talbott]

1 minute ago, Phillydog said:

As far as "critical mass" is concerned, this reminds me of the same excuse people use to argue against fixed guideway transit, "there's not enough density".  If you use the same standard for retail Uptown that's used in suburban locations (population in a 5 mile, 10 mile radius) the residential and office population is as great as any other location in the region (if not greater).  Retail is a destination, and while it may not attract the same number of shoppers at night and on weekends, have you been to a suburban mall during a work week?  Ghostly.  The narrative needs to change -- designers and developers need to produce an exciting product.  Boston's Faneuil Hall premiered in the mid-1970's even as downtown retail, office and residents were fleeing Boston.  The idea that Uptown Charlotte isn't "big" enough, or "dense" enough to support major retail is lame.  

I always feel that if Salt Lake City can have it, we can have it.  Their downtown is a ghost town except for the 2 malls and Temple Square 

*former resident of SLC

[Dale]

I was Uptown, last Thursday, and it was riotous with street-level activity the whole time I was there.

[ah59396]

You guys should have seen Uptown prior to say, 2000.  It was a friggin ghost town.

[HopHead]

11 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

You guys should have seen Uptown prior to say, 2000.  It was a friggin ghost town.

The ghosts had ghosts back then..

[tozmervo]

17 minutes ago, HopHead said:

The ghosts had ghosts back then..

but they didn't have any snickers after 5pm

[Dale]

Never mind 2000. In the 80's Uptown was Tryon and Trade and a sea of parking lots.

[caterpillar2]

Downtown was jumping until the early 70s. Sections like 4th Ward and everything else around down town were dangerous sections of town. If you look at photos of uptown Charlotte at Christmas time in the 50s and 60s, it looked like a crowded big city.  Uptown died with the death of Belks, Kresses, Ivey's, Sears, National Shirt Shop, Tanners, movie theaters, and other venues. Crime and malls killed everything. If only they could bring something similar back soon. Life started to appear around "92" if I remember correctly. I was living somewhere else at that time and I noticed life slowly returning downtown. But still pretty dead after 5:00 except for the winos, etc. 

[Vitamin_N]

When Charlotte hosted the Final Four in 1994, they had to build a temporary entertainment district in uptown because there wasn't enough to entertain people at night. I found this NYT article about the whole thing, which is amusing in retrospect:

CHARLOTTE, N.C., April 1— It's been called Potemkin Village with a drawl.

Whatever it is, the basketball fans and corporate bigwigs flocking to this shiny banking center for college basketball's Final Four weekend are enjoying a new dimension in disposable culture -- an instant downtown as permanent as a movie set.

Charlotte's downtown -- it goes by the perky appellation of "uptown" here -- has been abuzz since Thursday night with a vibrant street life of youngsters bouncing Pizza Hut basketballs, revelers slurping pina coladas and hoop fans strolling to and from clubs offering everything from country to Cajun to comedy. The festivities are concentrated in a four-block area just off the heart of downtown that is modestly being called "The Street of Champions."

Come Tuesday, most of this bustling entertainment zone will revert back to the somnolent streetscape of abandoned buildings and vacant lots it was at the beginning of the week.

[videtur quam contuor]

I moved here in '71. Graham street to Pine in 4th Ward was a wooded no man's land, dark, forbidding and I know not what. Crumbling foundations of long ago homes just visible in the dusk. I drove past it every day and shuddered. By the mid 70's some urban pioneers were making it there and then some homes were moved in, others restored and on until condos and other developments filled the space. I shopped downtown until Ivey's closed in the 80's. The Overstreet Mall was supposed to save the district. It did not.

In 1996 or early 97 I wanted to see a jazz singer at what is now Duckworths. There was Jonathan's jazz cellar. I went with wife and a friend for a Saturday night and could not find a place to park in the center city. I circled several lots until finally I chanced on a spot. Street parking was prohibited then since the purpose of streets was to evacuate the area after 5 pm, apparently. The College Street club area with Mythos and the other places had been open for a year or two and this was, to my opinion, the beginning of the renaissance of downtown street level commercial life.

[deleted]

^^

These descriptions of Uptown remind me of present day Birmingham.  There are some promising signs and topographically it's better than Charlotte.  That said, block after block of empty lots and boarded up buildings make up a fair share of downtown.  They still have the old buildings we lack but they don't have many (any, practically) of the new ones.  Huge potential but literally felt like I drove into the 50's when I drove downtown...

[ah59396]

14 hours ago, JBS said:

^^

These descriptions of Uptown remind me of present day Birmingham.  There are some promising signs and topographically it's better than Charlotte.  That said, block after block of empty lots and boarded up buildings make up a fair share of downtown.  They still have the old buildings we lack but they don't have many (any, practically) of the new ones.  Huge potential but literally felt like I drove into the 50's when I drove downtown...

I have a feeling Bham is going to boom in the next decade.

[Dale]

Downtown Birmingham does have good bones. Wish we had it's prewar highrise inventory.

[DMann]

As much as I can see BOA going into the LHGS project and like it, does anyone have any info regarding the block across from Rock Bottom?  My understanding is that BOA owned it and has terminated the lease that the CMPD had for the old Farvan building.  Seems they would rather have their folks closer.

[wmaddbb2018]

Any update on this project? I ask as a guy that grew up in Charlotte (Dilworth area, went to Myers Park high school) but have lived in Nashville for last 8 years and not in Charlotte since 2005.

[Guest]

This weekend I got a confirmation about BofA being part of a new tower uptown, but was told it's not a tower we know about yet... for what it's worth...


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[CLT704]

21 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

This weekend I got a confirmation about BofA being part of a new tower uptown, but was told it's not a tower we know about yet... for what it's worth...


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This is exciting! So neither this tower of Tryon Place is for BAC? BAC surely would stay on "their" side of Uptown, the site on 7th/N. Tryon? 

[sclark]

if this were BOA, would it be unusual for Goldman Sachs to finance? 

[Nick2]

What a great Christmas present! (new tallest for the win!!! lol)

[Guest]

What a great Christmas present! (new tallest for the win!!! lol)

Hah I don't think we see a new tallest for many years. Frankly i don't mind if we never get a new tallest


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[Nick2]

@ricky_davis_fan_21I feel the same way. We already have many beautiful, iconic, tall buildings. Quality infill (like we've been getting) is much better for our skyline and uptown. However, a 1000+ ft tower would be nice if placed in the right location.

[Guest]

@ricky_davis_fan_21I feel the same way. We already have many beautiful, iconic, tall buildings. Quality infill (like we've been getting) is much better for our skyline and uptown. However, a 1000+ ft tower would be nice if placed in the right location.

Basically only at CTC bus station. Only way it's balance out. But frankly, is be fine with our 871 foot Art Deco beauty being the tallest Forever.


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if this were BOA, would it be unusual for Goldman Sachs to finance? 

Not really.


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