Scope Area Renovations and Redevelopment

[vdogg]

More "me too" stuff... Sigh, these things will never change. We've known for years and years that scope needed to be expanded or replaced. There's even a picture of an arena on the master plan, but nope they just sat on it and twiddled their thumbs for decades. Now that VB is building a new arena, suddenly this becomes a priority. This tit for tat is tiresome. We are one region that can support one major arena. Just like we only need one Waterside and one Cruise Terminal, VB doesn't need their own Arts District, etc. Man, this was a disappointing article to read.

[carolinaboy]

Competition is good. Competition is driving this area forward believe it or not.

If you think for one second the staff of VB didn't want to build light rail you don't understand how things work. Politics got involved and killed LR there. Believe me VB wanted to be in competition with Norfolk and have LR.

Norfolk has had Scope for 46 years! Downtown is booming, people are coming back, jobs are coming back. Why? Because Norfolk has been wise and focused on providing infrastructure. The market has provided the rest. An arena is infrastructure. Norfolk should be improving it regardless of what VB is doing.

Maybe they sat on the plans from a couple of years ago because they were just a half measure? Maybe now is the time to upgrade Scope correctly.

Why should Norfolk forget about Scope because VB is building an arena? Norfolk should do what's in it's best interests, VB does.

[vdogg]

I have serious doubts that this area can support two major arenas. This may spook investors and it may wind up being a situation where we have one arena or none at all ( the loan is still not closed on VB Arena). Competition is good, to a point. When that competition works to the detriment of the entire region then we need to start thinking of how we can actually work together, instead of working against each other.

[Norva757]

On ‎5‎/‎13‎/‎2017 at 7:26 AM, vdogg said:

More "me too" stuff... Sigh, these things will never change. We've known for years and years that scope needed to be expanded or replaced. There's even a picture of an arena on the master plan, but nope they just sat on it and twiddled their thumbs for decades. Now that VB is building a new arena, suddenly this becomes a priority. This tit for tat is tiresome. We are one region that can support one major arena. Just like we only need one Waterside and one Cruise Terminal, VB doesn't need their own Arts District, etc. Man, this was a disappointing article to read.

I really believe they should change the scope to something else besides an arena. Maybe another museum downtown. They need to build another arena like they originally planned. Is the Vabeach arena a done deal?

[brikkman]

1 hour ago, Norva757 said:

I really believe they should change the scope to something else besides an arena. Maybe another museum downtown. They need to build another arena like they originally planned. Is the Vabeach arena a done deal?

I want to say its a done deal, i think its all a matter of the developer coming through with it as the city signed off on it. Building another arena when they already have one in the works at that mass would not be a good idea. If anything and what Va.beach should have done was strike a deal with the other cities and made it a venue for the region and the other cities get a smaller cut. A deal like that could have helped with the city's portion, made the venue that much more marketable and the start of regionalism IMO. The location of Va.beach arena is also terrible. It could stay in vabeach, just not at the ocean front.

[carolinaboy]

I look forward to seeing the new vision for Scope. I am going to go out on a limb and say Norfolk is smart enough to know even a refurbished Scope will not compete for certain events against a 18,000 seat arena.

However, Norfolk has serious momentum right now and they need to bring Scope up (as close as possible) to the needs and desires of today's spectators, acts, shows, teams, etc. A refurbished Scope can do wonders to continue to bring people downtown (read: stay in hotels, eat at restaurants, buy drinks, visit Macarthur/Waterside/Granby St, pay for parking, buy tickets, etc.).

If they do it right (and not try to compete directly with the VB arena) it will be another asset to the city in general and to downtown in particular. Remember, there are some very nice hotels downtown now. People may very well attend an event at Scope and stay in the new Hilton (as opposed to heading out of dodge after the event), etc.

Obviously they need to keep the concrete dome and buttresses. But if they can afford it, they need to blow the rest out and get at least 10,000 seats with some upgraded/luxury seating options.

I don't see a large arena in VB and a more modest sized arena in Norfolk being bad or competitive per se. I see it more as complimenting each other and in a way, promoting regionalism. "Hey, come to Hampton Roads for your tournament A-10, CUSA, AAC, ACC. We have a large, new arena in Virginia Beach and a smaller upgraded arena in Norfolk with light rail serving the two." (I made up the light rail part).

[BFG]

I'm at The Ted right now trying to do the math. I figure 15 feet gives you 15-20 rows.

Each section in The Ted holds about 20 seats per row, so I figure that's 300 per section. If you have 12-15 sections, that's easily a good 3- or 4,000 seats. 

I wonder if they'll somehow try to add a few luxury boxes?

[HRVT]

17 minutes ago, BFG said:

I'm at The Ted right now trying to do the math. I figure 15 feet gives you 15-20 rows.

Each section in The Ted holds about 20 seats per row, so I figure that's 300 per section. If you have 12-15 sections, that's easily a good 3- or 4,000 seats. 

I wonder if they'll somehow try to add a few luxury boxes?

I think Scope is steeper than Constant Center, so at the Scope, you're probably looking at more like 10-12 rows for 15 feet. Probably would add about 2000 seats. Adding some luxury suites and other amenities will probably lose the arena a few hundred to a thousand seats or so.

As for the reason for the renovations (addressing the complaining I've seen in the thread and elsewhere), I suspect it may have to do with trying to keep the Admirals. With the new arena being built, I would wonder if they are going to try to bring the Admirals there (there are other large arenas in the ECHL) at least as a placeholder tenant. By renovating Scope, it may allow the amenities the Admirals would need (want) to be built making the Scope attractive enough to stay (with a presumably lower rent than the VB Arena).

[BFG]

Not a major update on the Scope plan, but apparently Richmond is also considering a new arena. It seems like it will take a little longer to get the results of the Scope feasibility study.

https://pilotonline.com/sports/columnist/harry-minium/with-richmond-entering-the-fray-virginia-could-be-entering-another/article_8e274d14-20be-50d9-a2eb-9e67fc7e44fa.html

Edited July 9, 2017 by BFG

[BFG]

Populous, arguably the biggest name in sports architecture, is studying the renovation options for Scope. I believe Populous also had a hand in the Foreman Field upgrades. 

https://pilotonline.com/inside-business/news/municipal-government/architecture-firm-that-designed-london-s-o-is-studying-renovation/article_92633de5-069f-501f-b8c9-0a463252c7d8.html

[carolinaboy]

This is a very worthy project for the city. A refurbished Scope can become a statement piece for the city. Notice a pattern with development in Norfolk? The city is being proactive in building INFRASTRUCTURE and the private sector is responding because of it. Most of the residential projects would not have been done if it weren't for the city building light rail, a new library, a new court building, public art, town point park upgrade, etc.

I'm hoping Scope can be significantly redesigned and upgraded. The location is perfect.

[BFG]

I looked over a few pictures of a Scope last night. It's a lot of dead space in that arena, i.e. under the scoreboard where the seating forms a "wave" effect. 

By my math, by digging down and gutting the place, they could prolly get up to 14-15K for sports, and 16-17K for concerts, including a few suites.

[BFG]

Here's a couple pictures I found on Google. I think a lot can be done with the areas with the black curtains, and then the digging down. Populous does nice work, so I'm eager to see the results.

 

[HRVT]

IF Scope can be upgraded to about 15K or so, that has the potential to be a game changer for Norfolk. No, a 15K facility isn't going to hold a major league team for the long term, but if you can take that capacity, include a few suites, and heavily upgrade the other facilities, the Scope could potentially be deemed worthy of being a temporary arena (3-4 years) while a new one is built somewhere else in the city. 

As is though, neither the Scope oor any other current facility in Hampton Roads comes close to serving that purpose. And with VB being unlikely to land the arena at this point, this is probably Hampton Roads's best hope for landing major league sports for the foreseeable future (next 10 years or so).

[carolinaboy]

The city has Populous formulating a plan. This signals (to me) that the city is very serious about upgrading Scope. It makes sense to me. Scope is in downtown proper, which brings people to downtown (to spend money). Parking infrastructure is in place, no need to build a new parking deck. The hard-scape area surrounding Scope could become a very nice urban park/gathering space surrounding a refurbished arena. A refurbished Scope could be a catalyst to spark quality redevelopment in the St Pauls quadrant.

 

I think we should just put aside the idea that the region will get a (major league) professional sport. I don't think that will happen. But what could happen is that a refurbished Scope could make a push for NCAA basketball regional rounds, or CUSA, A10, MEAC tournaments, Virginia high school tournaments, WWE, military conferences, trade shows? Better entertainment acts might pay the Scope a visit. Maybe lure another AHL franchise?

 

I think the possibilities are interesting and would be another positive for the livability of the city, making it just that much more desirable to live in downtown. Libraries, museums, arenas, entertainment venues all add to an urban vibrancy.

 

I'm excited to see what Populous comes up with.

[HRVT]

13 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

The city has Populous formulating a plan. This signals (to me) that the city is very serious about upgrading Scope. It makes sense to me. Scope is in downtown proper, which brings people to downtown (to spend money). Parking infrastructure is in place, no need to build a new parking deck. The hard-scape area surrounding Scope could become a very nice urban park/gathering space surrounding a refurbished arena. A refurbished Scope could be a catalyst to spark quality redevelopment in the St Pauls quadrant.

 

I think we should just put aside the idea that the region will get a (major league) professional sport. I don't think that will happen. But what could happen is that a refurbished Scope could make a push for NCAA basketball regional rounds, or CUSA, A10, MEAC tournaments, Virginia high school tournaments, WWE, military conferences, trade shows? Better entertainment acts might pay the Scope a visit. Maybe lure another AHL franchise?

 

I think the possibilities are interesting and would be another positive for the livability of the city, making it just that much more desirable to live in downtown. Libraries, museums, arenas, entertainment venues all add to an urban vibrancy.

 

I'm excited to see what Populous comes up with.

I don't know if Hampton Roads should abandon the idea of attracting a major league team. There has been interest over the years. I don't think anything should built specifically with the idea of attracting the major leagues in mind. But I think a renovated Scope could be enough to be an attractive temporary arena while a real major league arena is built once the bird is in hand.

But the major leagues aren't the necessary goal of this renovation (just an interest byproduct of a thought). Rather, this renovation is to keep Scope relevant and up with the times and to make the area more attractive for the types of events you mentioned. I'm still not sure that the arena will be big enough to attract the NCAA Tournament, and if it did, it would be one or two times and only the 1st/2nd rounds. Norfolk currently hosts the MEAC Tournament in the Scope as is... but I do think this renovation could push it to attract bigger conferences that bring a higher profile to the city. I think it would also have a better chance of attracting some of the higher profile concerts that Virginia Beach was hoping their arena would attract.

[HRVT]

1 hour ago, NFKjeff said:

I agree with the post above, but I think it's a bit premature to start shoveling dirt on the VB Arena. 

You're probably right about that. But I've been more pessimistic than most about the deal than many here and I don't think it was a very good deal for the city either (though it clearly could be worse). The deal isn't dead.... but with the need for an extension and a lack of news (other than a recent fluff piece right around the time of the extension) I think the fat lady is beginning to warm up her vocal cords back stage. There is still time though.

[BFG]

Of course, nothing is written in stone, but HR has made its way onto a couple short lists for NBA, NHL and even Arena Football. Even if it's just speculation from sports blogs, someone is putting bugs in the leagues' ears, so I'm pretty sure there's awareness.

I dunno what's going on in VB, but Norfolk needs to be ready regardless. If nothing else, Scope has been woefully outdated for at least 25 years, and there's a lot of dead space. I'm getting to the point to where I don't care which city does something, just somebody make something happen. We need something more modern than Scope, and something larger than The Ted.

[baobabs727]

I met somebody yesterday afternoon who works for the city of Virginia Beach. This person told me that when Mayor Alexander first announced this proposal, the VB city staff were freaking mad as hell.

[Virginia City]

2 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I met somebody yesterday afternoon who works for the city of Virginia Beach. This person told me that when Mayor Alexander first announced this proposal, the VB city staff were freaking mad as hell.

Hence why no one will take this region seriously because we can't stop undercutting each other. The lack of clear Alpha city will always hold us down. Even in dual-cities there is one much larger city that calls all the shots; I.E. Tampa over St. Pete, Minneapolis over St. Paul, Dallas over Ft. Worth.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Virginia City

[BFG]

I don't think a merger would ever happen, but honestly, what would it take for this area to officially become Norfolk-Va. Beach or vice versa? Would that even be feasible if Chesapeake is poised to become the second largest city in the Commonwealth in a few years?

The more I think about it, the more I wish P.A. and Norfolk County had never become independent cities.

[Virginia City]

I wonder how much larger they could make it if they changed the outside. Leave the seats/guts of the arena and create a new shell. 

[BFG]

On 8/26/2017 at 11:53 AM, baobabs727 said:

I met somebody yesterday afternoon who works for the city of Virginia Beach. This person told me that when Mayor Alexander first announced this proposal, the VB city staff were freaking mad as hell.

This is an unfortunate scenario where both cities deserve a little blame, so I'm going to try and look at this objectively. In Norfolk's defense, VB has had 3 or 4 years to do this...the arena was "supposed" to be finished by this summer or early next year, but funding issues continuously held them up. In the time since the Kings rumor started approximately 5 years ago, Sacramento has since opened a new arena. Meanwhile, USM is still waiting on a lender to say yes, and keeps asking for extensions.

I hate the constant back and forth between Norfolk and VB, but I can't blame Norfolk for getting tired of all the false starts. It sucks, but someone has to take the reins here. Honestly, no matter which arena deal comes to fruition, both cities will benefit, as tourists will still head to the other city to shop or eat. It's just the host city will benefit directly.

In VB's defense, Norfolk should've done this decades ago - maybe when the Admirals first went AHL - so there's also that. There were NBA teams interested in HR at the time, but they couldn't wait to build a new arena. That was when Norfolk should've considered doing what they're doing now. But with a more central location, and a growing downtown with garages and light rail nearby, this might be the better option.

Does anyone know if there's any money in that public fund that went towards The Main? I imagine that would help finance this.

[carolinaboy]

Norfolk wasn't in a position (realistically) decades ago to do anything about an arena. The momentum in Norfolk is relatively new and critical mass has only happened recently. Norfolk is not beholden to VB to determine if they should refurbish their arena or build a new one. VB certainly wasn't beholden to Norfolk about light rail....essentially killing it at the city limits. Norfolk has realized VB doesn't play nice and neither should they. Norfolk will expand LR to ODU and the base, to Military circle, etc. Norfolk will refurbish Scope and continue it's renaissance of it's urban core. They have shown vision and leadership and it will pay off.

[baobabs727]

I think Virginia Beach will be just fine. Although points well taken.

Even though this is not a VB versus Norfolk thread, and we don't really want it to be so, I will make the objective observation that if you look over the past 20 years at major new development investment $$ coming in from outside of the region, Norfolk has pretty much dominated. I'm thinking of Taubman and MacArthur Center, Simon and Norfolk Premium Outlets, Sweden's Ikea, and Cordish's Waterside. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of anything on a similar large of a scale in terms of money coming from outside the region into new development in Virginia Beach during that same period of time.  

Oh, by the way, of course I chose money coming in from the outside for a very particular reason. I think it's an important measure for every city and region to look at in terms of how they are viewed from afar and how they stack up on the business climate, economic and job favorability scale compared with everyone else.  It also speaks to the talent and effectiveness of their city management and development teams.  Of course, sometimes there's just a bit of luck involved. 

Finally, as for economic $$ in terms of companies coming in or expanding from the outside and bringing jobs, you have Geico with a major expansion in VB in 1998,  and Norfolk's ADP just last year.  Even before that there was AVIS in Virginia Beach and USAA in Norfolk.  And now I'm getting so deep into the woods, I need to quit! Lol.

Edited August 28, 2017 by baobabs727