Scope Area Renovations and Redevelopment

[BFG]

The price tag for a "new and improved" Scope would've come to about $200M, for about the same number of additional seats. That's roughly half the price of a new arena, so I'd rather the city just put the 200M towards a new arena, and work out the financing from there (naming rights, hotel surcharges, etc.). Had the city actually maintained Scope over the last 40-something years, I'd be more open, but otherwise you're looking at a very expensive bandaid that still wouldn't be suitable for sports or major concerts. Maybe an NCAA opening round here and there, but that's about it.

[zeppelin14]

I'm not arguing that a new arena wouldn't be more ideal, but this is Hampton Roads. And Seattle's arena is $900M because it will be a first-class NHL arena. Scope doesn't need that. 

[NFKfloodcaptain]

Heads up, Scope and Chrysler Hall update on the informal agenda for tomorrow
https://www.norfolk.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Agenda/_03122024-1213

 

[BFG]

Looks like it's the preliminary meeting at 3:30, but I believe that'll air on the Norfolk Youtube channel. 

[BFG]

I did find an old blog post from 2013 that outlined what the city wanted to do during a planned renovation. This is something I think needs to happen:

• A new expanded glass concourse extending to the legs of the building that would wrap around the circumference of the structure. This would allow for more space and bring much better food and beverage options.

I think expanding the concourse gives the architects more leeway to expand the bowl and add a few more seats. They should aim for at least 13,000-14,000. 

[carolinaboy]

12 hours ago, BFG said:

I did find an old blog post from 2013 that outlined what the city wanted to do during a planned renovation. This is something I think needs to happen:

• A new expanded glass concourse extending to the legs of the building that would wrap around the circumference of the structure. This would allow for more space and bring much better food and beverage options.

I think expanding the concourse gives the architects more leeway to expand the bowl and add a few more seats. They should aim for at least 13,000-14,000. 

Now is the city's chance to do something special with Scope, Chrysler Hall and the plaza. The entire complex could be re-made to be truly special. That plaza needs to be a lush, green gathering spot downtown. So much potential. I love the idea of glass curtain walls on the Scope and a new glass enclosed entrance/lobby into Chrysler Hall. But, whatever is done please please please clean the damn concrete and budget money to give those buildings an annual cleaning.

 

[BFG]

Agreed. If you’re not building a new arena anytime soon, you need to do as much as you can with Scope. Add as many seats as possible, and more importantly a comfortable, modern experience where you don’t feel cramped. Don’t half-tail this project by putting lipstick on a pig.

I haven’t been to Chrysler Hall in years, so I can’t speak on that one. Is it really as outdated as Scope?

[BeagleAccountant]

4 hours ago, BFG said:

Agreed. If you’re not building a new arena anytime soon, you need to do as much as you can with Scope. Add as many seats as possible, and more importantly a comfortable, modern experience where you don’t feel cramped. Don’t half-tail this project by putting lipstick on a pig.

I haven’t been to Chrysler Hall in years, so I can’t speak on that one. Is it really as outdated as Scope?

Chrysler has aged much better than the Scope. But with a renovation, they could improve concessions, ingress/egress, bathrooms and add some more high end amenities.

[NFKjeff]

2 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Chrysler has aged much better than the Scope. But with a renovation, they could improve concessions, ingress/egress, bathrooms and add some more high end amenities.

Another big issue with Chrysler hall is the small loading dock. Some of the bigger productions travel with 18 tractor trailers of gear, and the loading dock can handle only 1 truck at a time. This adds an added level of difficulty and cost. They need a much larger delivery dock.

[BFG]

The Chrysler/Scope conversation starts at about the 1 hour, 6 minute mark. Right now none of the designs are concrete.

 

[BFG]

I skimmed through the presentation, but from what I noticed:

Chrysler Hall:

• Improved seating, but it looks like they would lose about 150 seats
• Renovated lobby
• More loading docks (four total?)
• Roughly a three-year process with the grand re-opening happening in October 2027

Scope:

• More seats added at floor level (ADA-compliant)
• Filling in the "corners" of the upper bowl with additional seats; this plus the floor level seating would add 1,000 seats
• Moving the stage 180 degrees to allow easier loading for shows
• Revisiting a 2016 idea that would allow a glass concourse to be expanded to the pillars; this could jeopardize any historic tax credits

An enhanced outdoor plaza for both.

The Scope option was the easiest they could do without lowering the floor or raising the roof, which would be cost prohibitive. Moseley Architects is looking into adding extra seats above the upper bowl, but hadn't completed its research. That option could potentially add 2,000 more seats, in addition to the 1,000 from above. It's not my money to spend, but I think they should consider at least lowering the floor slightly to get another 1,000 seats. I just don't think it's worth spending millions to barely get 13K seats. Councilman Smiegel had a similar concern about spending tax dollars for minimal upgrades.

EDIT: I’m surprised the city hasn’t considered naming rights. It wouldn’t be much, but I imagine they could work out a deal with Dollar Tree for $10-20M to offset the costs. 

Edited March 12 by BFG

[carolinaboy]

If Norfolk wants to keep at least the current level of programming at Scope they need to get this done and not just sit on it. I'd even be for more modern amenities at the expense of no additional seating. A new arena is not going to be built so put some money into Scope and Chrysler already.

[BFG]

WAVY explains everything in detail. I realize the city should've been more transparent during the Military Circle process, but I still hate that the Pilot caused that deal to fall through with their reporting. Yes they did their job as journalists, but they also have a habit of throwing a wrench in any major project for this area.

I don't hate the proposal and I get that arenas are expensive, but the powers that be make this seem like a game changer that will get us bigger events and I don't see that happening.

[NFKfloodcaptain]

$100+ million for renovations to both? I'm having a hard time justifying the cost benefit on that. They don't even make admissions tax because the City owns them and is exempt. I hate to say it but I wonder what privatization would look like on these. 

[BFG]

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/04/02/ajr-cancels-norfolk-show-on-day-of-concert-says-scope-is-too-small/

Indie band AJR cancels its show the day off because Scope is too small.

(rant deleted) 

Looking around, this may be a copout on their end but Norfolk still needs to figure out a game plan for Scope and maybe a new arena.

Edited April 2 by BFG

[baobabs727]

LOL dumb arses can't plan their way out of a paper bag, apparently. Like, really? They didn't know the size of SCOPE? Come on.  And they won't release the tech specs? What, do they need a bigger stage? Higher ceiling? Differently shaped arena? Do tell, boys! But they won't. At least not so far.  Ohh...and they promise to reschedule? LOL. Um, reschedule where? If this concert is so huuuuge, where are they going to find an arena in HR to accomodate the spectacle they have planned for fans?  And I'm reading that since they said the magic word, "reschedule," instead of , "cancelled," Tickemaster will not allow refunds until 60 days have passed without an announced reschedule! LOL! So people are out $$$$ for perhaps as long as 60 days!

That venue has handled world-class acts and monster truck shows. Surely, it can handle a band like this...one that most folks have never heard of I'm sure.

 

[ONCE1stBlvd]

Nm. It clearly mad everyone's day

Edited April 3 by ONCE1stBlvd

[HRVT]

17 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

LOL dumb arses can't plan their way out of a paper bag, apparently. Like, really? They didn't know the size of SCOPE? Come on.  And they won't release the tech specs? What, do they need a bigger stage? Higher ceiling? Differently shaped arena? Do tell, boys! But they won't. At least not so far.  Ohh...and they promise to reschedule? LOL. Um, reschedule where? If this concert is so huuuuge, where are they going to find an arena in HR to accomodate the spectacle they have planned for fans?  And I'm reading that since they said the magic word, "reschedule," instead of , "cancelled," Tickemaster will not allow refunds until 60 days have passed without an announced reschedule! LOL! So people are out $$$$ for perhaps as long as 60 days!

That venue has handled world-class acts and monster truck shows. Surely, it can handle a band like this...one that most folks have never heard of I'm sure.

 

Yep. This is completely on the band and a total copout. Apparently they hadnt even sold 2/3 of available tickets.

Either that or their production folks/booking agents are abysmally bad at planning. But lack of ticket sales appear to point to that as the problem. 

ADD: They sold 5,875 tickets. The venue seats 11k. In other words, they actually sold a little over half the venue. Not a great look for the opening act of their tour. Looks like THAT is the problem rather than size issues that should have been kniwn before booking.

Edited April 3 by HRVT

[baobabs727]

9 hours ago, HRVT said:

Yep. This is completely on the band and a total copout. Apparently they hadnt even sold 2/3 of available tickets.

Either that or their production folks/booking agents are abysmally bad at planning. But lack of ticket sales appear to point to that as the problem. 

ADD: They sold 5,875 tickets. The venue seats 11k. In other words, they actually sold a little over half the venue. Not a great look for the opening act of their tour. Looks like THAT is the problem rather than size issues that should have been kniwn before booking.

Agreed. Well in that case, not only are they incredibly inconsiderate, they are liars.   

[mintscraft56]

How the hell do you not know the size of the Arena. There are like 2 millions pictures of it, to plan there the size is specifically TOLD TO YOU so you can effectively plan your event. Its like getting a size small T-Shirt when your a Large. Did they just not check the size tag? Not only this but why the heck would you wait mere hours before your show. Had it been cancelled BEFORE fans flew in from other states it would have been fine but hours? When people are basically sitting outside the doors already? 

BS excuses. I like their songs but this was a big mistake for them. Gonna have lots of angry people. At the same time maybe this is a wakeup call for Norfolk to get a damn bigger arena. 

[NFKjeff]

8 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

How the hell do you not know the size of the Arena. There are like 2 millions pictures of it, to plan there the size is specifically TOLD TO YOU so you can effectively plan your event. Its like getting a size small T-Shirt when your a Large. Did they just not check the size tag? Not only this but why the heck would you wait mere hours before your show. Had it been cancelled BEFORE fans flew in from other states it would have been fine but hours? When people are basically sitting outside the doors already? 

BS excuses. I like their songs but this was a big mistake for them. Gonna have lots of angry people. At the same time maybe this is a wakeup call for Norfolk to get a damn bigger arena. 

It had nothing to do with the size of the arena. They sold about 60% of the available seats. This was a stunt to both save face, and get free publicity for the remainder of the tour. They obviously need all the publicity they can gin-up.

[HRVT]

17 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

It had nothing to do with the size of the arena. They sold about 60% of the available seats. This was a stunt to both save face, and get free publicity for the remainder of the tour. They obviously need all the publicity they can gin-up.

Thr size being discussed isnt about seating capacity. It's about the size of the facility related to the actually staging and effects from the show itself. 

All this to say, I agree... they're saving face. A slightly more than 1/2 full arena (a small arena at that) is a terrible look for the opening leg of the tour. Otherwise, why reschedule unless Norfolk is going to get a half-fast version of their show?

I wouldn't be surprised if the city even encouraged that excuse as a way to drum up support for renovations.

Edited April 5 by HRVT

[carolinaboy]

I had to listen to a couple of their songs because I've never heard of them before...........no big loss in my opinion.

[BFG]

2 hours ago, HRVT said:

Thr size being discussed isnt about seating capacity. It's about the size of the facility related to the actually staging and effects from the show itself. 

All this to say, I agree... they're saving face. A slightly more than 1/2 full arena (a small arena at that) is a terrible look for the opening leg of the tour. Otherwise, why reschedule unless Norfolk is going to get a half-fast version of their show?

I wouldn't be surprised if the city even encouraged that excuse as a way to drum up support for renovations.

I follow Councilwoman McClellan on Facebook. She seemed blindsided by all this, and the reactions in the comments go back and forth between "we need a new arena" or "upgrade Scope because it should be saved" (most agree the former is more ideal, albeit pricey). When I asked her about the 2017-18 plans to gut the place and start fresh, she made it seem like they're exploring all options and to me her response implied they want to do more than what was proposed a few weeks ago, depending on the budget.

[BFG]

Looks like the show is back on at Scope, June 23. The band also offers its defense over what happened last week.

https://www.pilotonline.com/2024/04/11/ajr-announces-new-norfolk-scope-date-after-last-minute-cancellation/