Scope Area Renovations and Redevelopment

[urbanlife]

On 12/2/2017 at 7:58 AM, BFG said:

About 14-15,000.

Shame they can't figure out how to get 1000-2000 more seats, that would put them on par with the NBA on the low end of capacity, though that doesn't count box seats. It is unfortunate the Scope wasn't built to be a larger arena to begin with because it would be terrible to lose such a great piece of architecture by one of the best concrete architects.

[BFG]

I'm hoping they can find an option that would allow for 15-16K. I know there was an option to dig even deeper (15 feet, IIRC), but that would've been basketball only and would mess things up for hockey. Maybe compromise and go for 8-10 feet, instead of the 4 ft. currently proposed.

Then again, things aren't looking so good for the Admirals right now, so who knows? I agree that Scope should've been built larger from the beginning. Chrysler Hall could've been built elsewhere downtown, but it is what it is. 

[zeppelin14]

On 12/2/2017 at 9:55 AM, mistermetaj said:

Nah, it has a historical concrete dome. Better to find another place for a new arena and convert scope into something else (imagine if it were possible to convert it into a train station). Could make the area now inviting and open to development by removing the large unused elevated space around the arena.

It is not THAT historical. It's an ugly dome arena built in the 60's in Norfolk. If they could tear down Yankee Stadium, they can tear down Norfolk Scope.

[Urbanlooker]

21 minutes ago, zeppelin14 said:

It is not THAT historical. It's an ugly dome arena built in the 60's in Norfolk. If they could tear down Yankee Stadium, they can tear down Norfolk Scope.

Isn't it the first of it's kind something like being the first self supporting concrete dome or something like that?

Edited December 5, 2017 by Urbanlooker

[baobabs727]

Well...It's not getting torn down. And it's probably not going to be expanded to be large enough to be relevant. So, this may be a big waste of time. Unfortunately, that's the way I feel about this. 

Don't exactly understand what the Mayor and Council are doing here.  They seem to be throwing out half-baked ideas in a vacuum ...absent any matrices or data that would indicate what the actual return on investment will be.  

And what of the alternatives? Why don't they instead invest the $80 million or whatever (guessing) on revitalizing the waterfront near Harbor Park and maybe getting an arena done over there.  A real arena. A big boy arena.  Not some super complicated rehab that will end up accomplishing next to nothing in terms of attracting the events that we would all like to see. Events that would actually help pay back the debt. Why don't they partner with somebody, even if it's those nameless people who might've failed in Virginia Beach, and this time have the city put up some of the money? Risky? Maybe. But you have to go big or go home.  Make gambles, take risks. The payoffs can be huge.  Just look at Nashville. We all need to read those Nashville trip articles that are popping up in Inside Business.  Boy do we have a lot to learn. And that goes well beyond regionalism.  Which is a big enough hurdle in and of itself. There are so many components missing here it's not even funny!

Edited December 5, 2017 by baobabs727

[HRVT]

17 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Well...It's not getting torn down. And it's probably not going to be expanded to be large enough to be relevant. So, this may be a big waste of time. Unfortunately, that's the way I feel about this. 

Don't exactly understand what the Mayor and Council are doing here.  They seem to be throwing out half-baked ideas in a vacuum ...absent any matrices or data that would indicate what the actual return on investment will be.  

And what of the alternatives? Why don't they instead invest the $80 million or whatever (guessing) on revitalizing the waterfront near Harbor Park and maybe getting an arena done over there.  A real arena. A big boy arena.  Not some super complicated rehab that will end up accomplishing next to nothing in terms of attracting the events that we would all like to see. Events that would actually help pay back the debt. Why don't they partner with somebody, even if it's those nameless people who might've failed in Virginia Beach, and this time have the city put up some of the money? Risky? Maybe. But you have to go big or go home.  Make gambles, take risks. The payoffs can be huge.  Just look at Nashville. We all need to read those Nashville trip articles that are popping up in Inside Business.  Boy do we have a lot to learn. And that goes well beyond regionalism.  Which is a big enough hurdle in and of itself. There are so many components missing here it's not even funny!

The only endgame I can assume here is that they're trying to build a facility big enough that CAN be used temporarily for a pro team (the current Scope doesn't even fit the bill for two or three years) while a new arena is built. Right now, Hampton Roads does not have an arena that can accommodate a pro team for even a couple years (and neither does Richmond really since the Richmond Coliseum a colossal dump). By expanding/renovating Scope, that might at least get it to where if a pro team were interested in Hampton Roads, we could propose Scope to be used for the two or three years it would take to build a legitimate big league arena.

Expanding to 15,000 may also make the area more attractive for indoor concerts. It probably won't attract many marquee names, but it may bring in more.

But I agree that I'm not sure the potential benefit is worth the surefire cost. Especially that even in a best case scenario, you're talking about the pro team using the arena for maybe four years max before they move into the much bigger/better new arena. IMO, don't half-arse it. Go all the way or don't go at all.

[BFG]

So, I go back and forth on this. Either way, we'd have to a) spend money and b) wait a couple years. I think the Scope renovation would take 18-20 months, so if the Admirals season ends next spring (no playoffs), Scope would be completed by the end of 2019, early-2020 at the latest. If they approved a new arena and started breaking ground by next summer, add another year to the above timeline (early-to-mid-2021). Add another six months if you have to demolish anything.

If a renovation costs more than say, $75M, then I'd suggest just trying to build a new arena, either at Military Circle, next to Harbor Park, or where the Crowne Plaza sits across the street. Option C was the original plan when the "Rhinos" NHL team was supposed to happen about 20 years ago, although, I think they would have to realign the streets over there. Or, since Greyhound may move, tear down the bus station and build a parking garage there, which leads to the arena on the Crowne Plaza lot.

Then, gut Scope and turn it into an exhibition hall-like place. There's plenty of space for something...it doesn't have to be an arena. However, I do think an arena should be within walking distance of a light rail line. 

[HRVT]

53 minutes ago, BFG said:

So, I go back and forth on this. Either way, we'd have to a) spend money and b) wait a couple years. I think the Scope renovation would take 18-20 months, so if the Admirals season ends next spring (no playoffs), Scope would be completed by the end of 2019, early-2020 at the latest. If they approved a new arena and started breaking ground by next summer, add another year to the above timeline (early-to-mid-2021). Add another six months if you have to demolish anything.

If a renovation costs more than say, $75M, then I'd suggest just trying to build a new arena, either at Military Circle, next to Harbor Park, or where the Crowne Plaza sits across the street. Option C was the original plan when the "Rhinos" NHL team was supposed to happen about 20 years ago, although, I think they would have to realign the streets over there. Or, since Greyhound may move, tear down the bus station and build a parking garage there, which leads to the arena on the Crowne Plaza lot.

Then, gut Scope and turn it into an exhibition hall-like place. There's plenty of space for something...it doesn't have to be an arena. However, I do think an arena should be within walking distance of a light rail line. 

Meanwhile, the current Admirals as we know them would disband (which appears to be happening naturally) while the renovation takes place. Then in a couple years, the refurbished arena may be attractive to bring an AHL team back to Scope.

And yes, I think the old Crowne Plaza would be a fine site for an arena.

[Virginia City]

Is the Crown Plaza (Wyndham) land large enough or would they have to move/close roads?

[zeppelin14]

Crown Plaza site is way too small.

 

[HRVT]

41 minutes ago, zeppelin14 said:

Crown Plaza site is way too small.

 

It would have to include the Greyhound station too as well as the next block across from Starke St. Including those, the site is substantially larger than the Scope site.

[urbanlife]

On 12/4/2017 at 7:05 PM, zeppelin14 said:

It is not THAT historical. It's an ugly dome arena built in the 60's in Norfolk. If they could tear down Yankee Stadium, they can tear down Norfolk Scope.

Try again, it was designed by Pier Luigi Nervi, one of the best concrete architects and he only did a handful of buildings in the states and somehow Norfolk managed to get one of his stadium designs. The few buildings he has in the US should all be protected pieces of architecture. You really should study up on his work, it is an impressive career and a style of architecture that needs to be preserved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pier_Luigi_Nervi

Edited December 6, 2017 by urbanlife

[Virginia City]

I think he meant "not THAT historical" because of the "worlds largest unsupported concreate dome" record it held before the Kingdome was constructed (1 year) and then regained after the Kingdome was deemed inadequate and imploded (17 years ago).

Edited December 6, 2017 by Virginia City

[BFG]

Speaking of Seattle, their city council approved a $600M expansion for KeyArena. The same group behind that proposal also did the one for Scope. Hopefully, the Scope renovations don't come anywhere close to that price tag, considering you could just build a new arena for that cost.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/seattle-mayor-jenny-durkan-signs-mou-to-renovate-keyarena/ 

[urbanlife]

19 hours ago, BFG said:

Speaking of Seattle, their city council approved a $600M expansion for KeyArena. The same group behind that proposal also did the one for Scope. Hopefully, the Scope renovations don't come anywhere close to that price tag, considering you could just build a new arena for that cost.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/nba/seattle-mayor-jenny-durkan-signs-mou-to-renovate-keyarena/ 

Seattle is basically building a new arena, they just happen to be keeping the roof structure of the original Key Arena.  It is really impressive with what they are doing, it will probably score them a NHL and/or a NBA team.

[BFG]

Hmm...now I'm more curious about the Scope renovations. Obviously Key is much larger, but I do wonder what they can do here to make it as close to high-quality as possible.

[BFG]

Since Harry Minium from The Pilot proposed building at Military Circle, I took a Google Maps shot of the mall, and superimposed Vegas's new T-Mobile Arena atop the center of Military Circle. T-Mobile Arena is highlighted in the neon green. I think you'd have plenty of parking, and may not even need a garage. Instead of putting money into Scope, this should be Norfolk's next effort, along with SPQ.

Movement Mortgage and Optima could possibly move to a tower downtown?

[carolinaboy]

Here is a concept I am playing with.  It just seems to me Scope is too old, too small and too expensive to refurbish. I say get rid of it and replace it with a new modern arena.

• City owns the property
• Stays in downtown
• Property seems big enough to hold a large arena
• Catalyst for further development
• Design the new arena exterior to pay homage to Scope
• Keep underground parking to the extent possible
• Near a LR stop
• Fed Government gets a new, modern, secure courthouse
• Improve Chrysler Hall exterior

 

[metalman]

Unfortunately my initial thought was of all the history you just destroyed in that proposal.  

   Sometimes bigger isn't better when your talking about the removal of history and art.

[carolinaboy]

24 minutes ago, metalman said:

Unfortunately my initial thought was of all the history you just destroyed in that proposal.  

   Sometimes bigger isn't better when your talking about the removal of history and art.

Yeah, it's a bit harsh of a concept I agree. I think, in the case of an arena, new is better than old. A new arena (designed to pay homage to the aesthetic of Scope) could do so much more for the city than dumping money into the old one. Scope is a gem that I think needs too much polishing.

[BFG]

I think Scope should've been gutted and turned into a convention center, instead of the one at The Main. But, I think the Scope is downtown's best location for an arena. Norfolk has already demolished a lot of its history, so I'd hate to see it go. I say build the arena elsewhere in the city (Military Circle seems to be the only place with enough land) and use Scope for something else. That said, I still want to see Norfolk's plans to overhaul the arena.

Long Island put a lot of work into Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum, and the Islanders now play there again, at a capacity of 13,500. For basketball, it holds about 16,500. If Scope could come to a basketball capacity somewhere around 15K, I think they could at least get some NBA exhibition matches and continue keeping the MEAC here. Charlotte may not keep the CIAA tournament past 2020....Norfolk getting the CIAA back in an expanded Scope would be huge for the city.

I think Scope needs the work way more than Chrysler Hall.

[Virginia City]

I don't like your proposal to demo the courthouse but I don't have a problem with demoing the Scope. A new arena could pay homage to the old building with it's architectural design.  Redesigning the underground parking garage would be a must though.

[BFG]

I've only been to the underground garage a handful of times, so I do wonder if Scope were demolished, a) how far down and wide could you dig, and b) how many spaces could that provide?  One site I saw says there's 600 spaces; I imagine you would need to get at least 1,000 for the arena alone.

To preserve as much space as you can at Scope plaza, I suggest building a garage in front of the Crowne Plaza on Brambleton, demolishing the two "wings" at the south end. Or replace the hotel altogether with a new hotel and restaurants, along with the garage and a walkway connecting to the arena. There's also the church parking lot facing Scope and St. Paul.

I really hate that Norfolk is putting the future of Scope on the back burner. If they want to move up to the next level and land better concerts and sporting events, they need to act immediately. And by immediately, I mean they're already 20 years behind the times.

Edited July 23, 2018 by BFG

[vdogg]

Umm, wow. This Chrysler Hall renovation looks amazing!

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/new-venue-more-green-space-part-of-improvement-proposals-for-chrysler-hall/1802830547

[vdogg]

There's actually 4 different designs to choose from for the area around Scope. I like Harmony the best. It's bold without being too loud.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/norfolk/take-a-look-at-how-norfolk-plans-to-transform-the-scope-area/291-9017f6b2-b070-42f3-a8ce-52c4385bdc6e