Shelters in Heartside

[VNG]

What is the deal with the concentration of shelters & soup kitchens in the Heartside District between Ionia and Division, north of Wealthy? I see I other threads that there is a lot of development going on in the area, but last time I was in that area we saw all sorts of people who appeared to be homeless just hanging out on the corners by Goodwill, God’s Kitchen, and on the side streets by Mel Trotter. It has been a while since I have been in the area, and they might not even be there anymore.  

 

I think that they offer a wonderful service to the poor and homeless, but I wonder what the impacts are in terms of making the surrounding area economically viable. Do you think that these hurt the commercial uses that offer onsite goods and services? What do you think the other options are? Would you want to live there or patronize a business so close to there? Do you think it hurts walk in traffic to businesses? 

 

 

[John E]

The Missions and other services for the homeless and low-income residents in Heartside are still there. With the developments in Heartside the neighborhood is becoming even more deversified. It has been great for many to see them remain while the area grows.
Yes the homeless, low-income hang out groups do hurt retail business and growth on Division Ave. After the pocket park at Cherry Street was built Kicks moved to Eastown. The foot traffic in the area has increased in the last few years or so. Residents that have moved into the area have not had a problem with the Heartside people. Recently talked to one that moved in next to Guiding Light Mission. Said he has not had a single major problem with any of them. I lived and worked there for around 13 years and never had a problem with them. With the big growth in the area the retail could pick-up as people learn to understand that they are people like everybody else and are harmless and not to be feared or even looked down on. But yeah, there will always be some that will not accept that, or them.

[GR_Urbanist]

They came in when the area was abandoned and falling apart. Hopefully they will start getting peeled off to scatter to different parts of the area now that buildings are being rehabilitated. There are simply too many of these organizations concentrated in too small of an area.

 

That is why you have so many homeless people just milling about the same expanse all day. That is also why retail simply could not thrive when you have people passed out in doorways or pilled up in that park on Division, not to mention peeing on buildings and yelling at each other. Empty storefronts = no commerce = no city taxes = more urban rot. It doesn't help that those organizations hide behind the Bible and self-righteousness when they attract what are mostly out-of-town homeless to the area to clog up the district even worse and then act like they have nothing to do with it. I've all but stopped going to the DT Goodwill because I am sick of being hit up for money for food when there are places giving it out everyday of the week within yards. No one there looks to have missed very many meals.

 

Good luck to the people that are paying good money to live there. They are putting on a good act pretending like they don't notice or care. I think the tipping point is fast approaching when they are going to start demanding changes or tossing lawsuits. Someone has got to move. Hopefully it is Degege, which is the worse loitering spot. They had to recently hire security to deal with people selling drugs outside their doors. A double win would be if they and Guiding Light Mission both moved. Mel Trotter seems to run a tighter ship.

[Paramaribo]

Crack dealers, hobo gauntlets, and rivers of pee are sources of artistic inspiration. It wouldn't be Heartside without them. 

[fakkelsey]

A double win would be if they and Guiding Light Mission both moved. Mel Trotter seems to run a tighter ship.

 

 

 Maybe I am wrong, but I believe Guiding Light was the mission who changed their program and now only allowing persons to stay there that are enlisted in their program and are actively getting their life back on track. That is primarily why Mel Trotter now is soo very over crowded to the extent where at times they cannot even fit people in  the designated sleeping rooms with just extra mattresses. From what I hear, Mel Trotter is consistently pushing the  numbers over the brink since Guiding changed their format.

 

In saying that, your post had some truth for sure but also some harsh falsehoods. True that the homeless is gathered in a very small area of town, thus I believe preventing the only remaining commercial stretch in the Heartside from being a success if your idea of success is just more night clubs and bars which is the majority of the retail in that area. However, by assuming that is the only issue makes one wonder why the likes of Eastern south of Wealthy remains a non prime shopping district like those further down Division. Even Wealthy, now considered a success, primarily consist of eateries and bars (exception East town) that cater to people outside of the district (exception Heritage Hill). Point being, homeless is only one cause of certain blocks being fairly empty.

 

You accuse us Christians of keeping part of a city in a depressed state (a less populated with bars state) due to many wanting to help the less fortunate. Now while it is true there are many from out of town due to the generosity of the neighborhood and that many truly never plan on improving or helping themselves out and just tend to hang out and cause trouble due to too much energy and doing nothing productive, it is also true many find themselves in a depressed state concerning money, health, mental conditions, ect.  Next time you walk down Division, look at and count the ones fighting versing the many that just call this blockage home and cause no trouble at all. Secondly, ask your self what you would do if suddenly you found yourself jobless, kicked out of your home, and no family to help. 

 

  I just visited the old poor farm west of town on Leonard the other day, and saw where they buried the dead there and read a couple stories. One was a man who most of his life helped build Holland and had 11 children. Then Holland caught fire and his wife died, he got depressed and could no longer take care of himself, went to the poor farm and died three years later. I met a man last fall who took a job here from Flint, where his family was, but his job fell through and he was stuck. He musta made it back because I have not saw him around since then.

 

Point being, the homeless have more then one class of people. Some just decide to make that a way of life. (We had to kick many out of our home because of this decision) Others decide this due to mental illness, which by the way, consist of many vets who fought to keep this country free. Some just fall on hard times and once they get their  selves back up, they start a successful  part of living. Some of this is to do with what we see a block away, that is, many cannot seem to put the alcohol away and because of it lose everything God has given them.

 

To blame Christians for helping those who need help for a many of reasons thus keeping down a blockage of Division, you might as well blame the success of a good part of the Heartside to the later demise of many who lose everything over drinking. I am glad your way of thinking is not the way many others think. If you  are going to blame Christians for such, make sure you also blame them for a safer city, as there are many that would turn to robbery on the street corners if they could not get what they needed other wise. Make sure you also blame Christians for the savings of many lives and souls for eternity.

 

Some decisions are hard to make. Can you help some and not help others? Guiding Light is trying that approach, thus making Mel Trotter over loaded. In Knowing these organizations are non profit, who is going to foot the bill to relocate them? Even more so, if they were scattered all over town, would that be of help when that would cause it very hard for the needy to get to the soup kitchens.

 

 Trust me, I know some of the issues. I, like many, would love a better solution. But can there be one? How hard is it for people to change minds, attitudes, and learn t behaviors and ways of thinking? Just ask certain ones who are trained and taught to behead all those who deny Allah. What do we  do in the meantime? What will it take for some to change their way of thinking?

 

 It is a huge issue and I believe there sometimes is no straight up right or wrong answers, like most things in life, but do we as humans, just decide to turn our backs upon our fellow brothers? It is a harder thing to selectively help when we do not know the history or by what means may bring someone around. I do have trouble supporting many who choose not to do anything to improve their own situation, but how do you implement this on a scale of overcrowded homeless neighborhoods, and what then happens as a result of all the ones who are turned away from help? Do they just accept that and then leave and get a job, or most likely, return in hatred to destroy the help of the truly needed.

 

Point being, don't be so ignorant concerning those who actually want to help and to make a difference and thank the good God you already got what you need and so much more. Thank God there are those who do want to help.   

[jwazzz]

I agree with GR_Urbanist completely - Division will never be successful as long as Guiding Light, Degege and Gods Kitchen remain in their current locations. Do they provide worthy and needed services - without a doubt but it's time to have a serious discussion about moving them elsewhere. I could be wrong about both of these buildings but didn't GRPS close Campau Park school (just off Division, south of Franklin) and isn't the old Salvation Army building on Division just south of Hall now sitting empty? Those two buildings alone would more than make up the space for all three of these organizations and I'm sure without looking too hard we could come up with several empty sites between Franklin and Burton Heights that could also be used. 

 

There was a time when the current locations of the above mentioned were well suited to their mission but that time has passed.

 

And one last thing - fakkelsey's diatribe on anti-Christianity was way over the top. Taking a portion of a post consisting of four words and turning it into a 10 paragraph sermon meant to chastise while at the same time throwing in a very thinly veiled anti-Muslim slam, in my opinion, adds little to this discussion. 

[John E]

Why do some people favor gentrification?
Heartside is becoming an awesome deversified neighborhood.
I hope it keeps going as it is.

[fakkelsey]

Maybe your right Jwazzz, but that was quite a powerful statement to me. For the record, I am not at all anti Muslim, but very anti Islam. Here is counting the murders on weekly bases. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

 

Keeping on topic, however, I see your point, John. In many cities this is the way things run. It does seem in smaller cities, however, it is a harder idea to accept. Ironically, this can be seen in Lansing, where the only mission around that I know of is on the revamped Michigan ave. downtown. I do understand both sides though. Finding a solution that makes everyone happy, however, could be a problem.

 

 GR, I have no hard feelings. I just have no understanding of where your statement was based from.

[jwazzz]

Fakkelsey -  I'm having trouble following your logic. A Muslim is an adherent of Islam - the two are one in the same. It would be like saying I am not at all anti-Christian but very anti-Christianity. 

 

The link to the site you provided spoke volumes about your beliefs - ranks right up there with the most hate-filled speech I've ever been exposed to. One of the less incendiary (out of what appears to be hundreds) topics - "Muslims - The Vilest of Animals". 

 

No sense in continuing this conversation with you - it appears as though our versions of Christianity are quite different. 

[GRDadof3]

What in the world does this discussion have to do with Islam? Can we bring this discussion back around please?

 

The fact of the matter is that the concentration of the homeless shelters in one area does have negative consequences. The organizations pay no taxes, yet they require a lot of city services and their patrons drive out retail businesses. They're also driving out the artists in Avenue for the Arts. You know it's bad when even the artists don't like living and working there.

 

There are retail businesses other than bars and restaurants. Unfortunately none of them stand a chance on South Division. I know of another one that will be closing by the end of the Summer.

 

If having all of those missions/shelters is so great fakkelsey, put them all in your neighborhood. Anyone who says that they are comfortable watching a grown man take a shit in a storefront alcove, or watching daily drug overdoses on the sidewalks, they're crazy.

 

Not all development is gentrification. Gentrification is when redevelopment drives up prices to the point where the previous residents can no longer afford to live in that district. The homeless don't pay anything to "live" there.

[John E]

I look at it this way. What would happen to the area if the Missions including Degege's and God's Kitchen moved into a different area? Look how much Heartside is improving with them remaining. The downsize is that the storefronts on Division Ave. would need some extreme creativity to draw people. Strangly though is that Commerce Street doesn't seem to have that problem. I think the best option for the street level commercial spaces on Division is for art dispay or shared work spaces. Or for a developer to convert many of them for restaurant use. That has been proven to be doable with the success of Rockwells and the Republic.
I think they have been doing an awesome job with bringing in market rate living along with more low-income housing without forcing out the homeless undesirables.
Also from what I have seen, the use of the area as an outhouse has decreased a great deal.
Again I think Heartside is heading in the right direction without forcing people out.

[jas49503]

Why do some people favor gentrification?

 

 because it beats the alternative. prices are either going to be moving up or down. going down, you end up with a neighborhood like heartside used to be.  moving up, you end up with gentrification.  get enough improvement  and the original residents will have to leave.  I personally don't see what the problem with this is. everyone complains that gentrification will force out the residents but consider that the residents didn't end up there by choice in the first place.  the residents ended up there because there was nowhere else to go.  

 

The argument against moving the shelters/missions is spurious.  the homeless exist in that space because of the presence of the shelters, not the other way around.  distributing them throughout the city would be of benefit to thier constituents as it would move resources closer to their original homes, the ones the lived in before succumbing to alcoholism, drug addiction, mental illness, or other life circumstances.

 

encouraging/incentivizing them to move would not be overly disruptive either. the change would occur gradually as you can no force them out and it is very unlikely that they would all move on the same time table.

[John E]

Reality Check:
With the influx of new apartments in Heartside Dwelling Place has grown also.
Heartside continues to meet the needs of the people and more.
The Missions and support have not hindered the development of Heartside.
The only reason people want to move the missions and support out of Heartside is for retail on Division Ave. Yet retail on Commerce and Ionia continues to grow.
What is the sad truth about these facts?

I believe that people who do not live in Heartside do not care about the precious human beings there because they do not and do not want to UNDERSTAND THEM.
It's all about retail and money. People do not see the beauty with diversity.
Is gentrification the root of all evil in action?
Is there really a need to move the Missions and Support out of Heartside?

[GRDadof3]

Reality Check:

With the influx of new apartments in Heartside Dwelling Place has grown also.

Heartside continues to meet the needs of the people and more.

The Missions and support have not hindered the development of Heartside.

The only reason people want to move the missions and support out of Heartside is for retail on Division Ave. Yet retail on Commerce and Ionia continues to grow.

What is the sad truth about these facts?

I believe that people who do not live in Heartside do not care about the precious human beings there because they do not and do not want to UNDERSTAND THEM.

It's all about retail and money. People do not see the beauty with diversity.

Is gentrification the root of all evil in action?

Is there really a need to move the Missions and Support out of Heartside?

 

New apartments? = mostly low income

Not hindering development of Heartside? = we're not talking about Heartside in totality, we're talking about South Division (and the area to the East all the way to Saint Mary's, if we want to be factual

 

How is corralling all of the homeless into a one block area of downtown "caring" for and about them? I actually think it normalizes homelessness. You go out every day and see hundreds of other people homeless, then it's okay to be homeless yourself. If the homeless shelters were spread out in areas where people are working and commerce is happening, you will feel the social pressure to do the same. If you're getting treatment for alcohol and/or substance abuse, then definitely congregating with others who need treatment and who can supply you with drugs is not a great situation.

 

Nobody's advocating for a lack of diversity. In fact, everyone here would probably love to see more market rate housing, which in itself will legally have to be diverse (protected by federal housing laws).

[x99]

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the homeless shelters and retail are concerned.  At one point, many years ago, this was a thriving retail corridor.  I won't claim to know the story of the decline, but it is very clear that this area, as presently constituted, has no future at all as a cohesive district.  I've walked down Division before to Rockwells, and was driving past the other day and thought I'd stop off at the Goodwill--only a few blocks away, right?  Oh so wrong.  The walk from the Cathedral parking lot area to Goodwill was nerve-wracking.  There were people passed out on a stoop, one guy pacing back and forth talking to himself, and some a guy with what can only be described as heavily drug-addled "crazy eyes" that stared me down.  And this was the middle of the day.  I would sooner drive to 28th Street than drop stuff off there or shop there.  I cannot imagine any sane person trying to set up anything remotely resembling a retail operation in this area unless your target market was members of motorcycle gangs. 

 

It's a tough call to make whether providing services to the homeless is worth sacrificing what once was and what very well could be one of the most successful retail and business corridors in the entire City of Grand Rapids.  Downtown's commercial district was flattened by urban renewal and isn't coming back, so if there ever is to be another one, this is probably it, apart from any new construction on Wealthy.  For the foreseeable future, there is no viable commercial retail corridor near downtown.

 

So far as the comment about Grand Rapids serving as a homeless magnet, I suspect it is accurate.  Possibly a decade or so ago, I had a lengthy conversation with a homeless gentleman on the east side of the state.  To say he was a "professional" homeless would have been an apt description.  He quite literally traveled the state from shelter to shelter according to their length of stay allowances.  He knew where all of the best food was, and where to get it.  Grand Rapids was described in nothing less than glowing terms.  That, at least, speaks well of our charity.  Possibly.  Fakkelsey mentions the old poor farms where the homeless could go to live and work in a farm environment. By the early '50s, we had apparently wiped them away for some reason or another.  Now, as GRDad notes, we've basically stuffed all of the homeless into a densely packed urban environment where there is easy access to drugs, free handouts, subsidized transportation, and ample negative reinforcement.  In short, it is arguable that we've made homelessness rather easy and--almost--an acceptable and "normal" way of life.  As long as we're touching on the moral aspects of development, is the current way we're dealing with homelessness really more humanizing than being able to live in the country and doing work on a farm?  The good intentions are certainly there, but whether the intentions actually help the homeless in a charitable, Christian fashion is perhaps rather debatable, particularly if a side effect is decimating an entire area.

 

That is why you have so many homeless people just milling about the same expanse all day. That is also why retail simply could not thrive when you have people passed out in doorways or pilled up in that park on Division, not to mention peeing on buildings and yelling at each other. Empty storefronts = no commerce = no city taxes = more urban rot.

[fakkelsey]

If having all of those missions/shelters is so great fakkelsey, put them all in your neighborhood. Anyone who says that they are comfortable watching a grown man take a crap in a storefront alcove, or watching daily drug overdoses on the sidewalks, they're crazy.

 

 

I do not speak without knowledge. I live within blocks of Division. That is where I do some of my shopping. I know the area quite well.

 

Let us go a little further with questions. If we were to decide to move the shelters, where do we move them and who pays for it? I am sure any good neighbor would love the opportunity to have a couple next to them, right? I am also quite sure most would have no problem spending tax dollar money on moving them, right? Truly as humans we like to group everyone in the same shoes.

 

 I would actually like to see that any able person work a bit (volunteer at the mission) for their services. (Like I assume the poor farms were designed.) thus helping to maintain cost and staffing.

 

The area east of Division is not intended for retail with the exception of State. John's point is that all blocks apart from Division has seen much growth, including just one block west.

 

I am not so blinded by the fact the homeless there does have a huge impact with retail. It needs to be remembered though that most large cities in time co exist with the homeless and middle class in their growing downtown neighborhoods. One can easily see this on the western  portion of Chicago's downtown, Cincinnati OTR district, and many other larger cities else where than the Midwest. I am not saying it is always an enjoyable walk, nor is going to the hospital a vacation spot. People do need help though. If you are lucky enough not to need it thank God.

 

Yes, there are many who travel across the US as homeless and yes, Grand Rapids is ranked fairly high. Yes, we should work on solutions. Yes, there are many troubles and many people that are  content living this way. However, there is many more reasons than people know of. Try talking with some. Does that make everything acceptable? No. But we do need to understand the homeless will always be among us. If the economy tanks again, we will see many more. Tent cities were common across the US just a few years back. So, yes, there are issues, but just like every other problem, we just can't relocate a problem and expect it to go away. We need to deal with it face on.

[wmrharris]

Perhaps the game to play is "if not here, where?" This population is where it is because this is the one neighborhood that won't object. It's a matter of power. It's also a matter of history. This is the residue of the old railyard. Really, Division was not ever the commercial strip, it was the eastern boundary of the downtown and the railyards. So in one sense, this neighborhood has always been poor.

 

The population  is also here because of access to social services. Without cars they are limited to where feet or public transportation can take them.

 

Finally, the downtown as a home for the mentally ill (at least when they're not in prison -- another warehouse) exists in part because of the deinstitutionalizing a generation ago. Better mental health services could help. Some stronger form of paternalistic intervention might help as well, but then again, who has the stomach for that?

 

So where do they go? S of Hall? Out to Wyoming? where in the metroplex is the place of least resistance?

[John E]

Round and round we go.
I'll just finish my side with a simple statement:
Look at who all that wants to turn Heartside into Heartless-Side.

[gvsusean]

Round and round we go.

I'll just finish my side with a simple statement:

Look at who all that wants to turn Heartside into Heartless-Side.

How is it heartless to move the shelter? no one said close the shelter and send people packing. Shelters do not improve the vibrancy of an area, they do not help financially or aesthetically, but they do provide a valuable service. Spread them around town so the density of of homeless to resident isn't 1:1. You may call that heartless but, I call the alternative brainless. 

[Raildudes dad]

Downtown's commercial district was flattened by urban renewal and isn't coming back, so if there ever is to be another one, this is probably it, apart from any new construction on Wealthy.

 

 

Wrong. Urban renenwal tore down the buildings on "Lower Monroe" where the missions and upper story cheap boarding rooms were (60's). There were empty store fronts just like S. Division.

 

The next stop for the down and out was Bridge Street west of the river. The top manager of my employer used to tell the union employees that they were just a pair of hands he could replace any morning off the sidewalks of Bridge St.  He was a "nice" guy. (70's)

 

The last couple decades the missions have been concentrated around S. Division. Cheap buildings and cheap rent would be my reasons why. Same reason they were on lower Monroe and then Bridge St.

 

This is the residue of the old railyard. Really, Division was not ever the commercial strip, it was the eastern boundary of the downtown and the railyards. So in one sense, this neighborhood has always been poor.

 

 

Wrong. South Division was "the highway commercial" of the 40's and 50's. Again, look at the old photos. Division was US 131 - the state trunk line south to Kalamazoo and US 12 at White Pigeon. US 12 - was "the road" between Detroit and Chicago - No toll road, no I-94.  Division was commercial from Michigan Street to about 44th. No other street in GR had mile after mile of 4 lane road lined with car lots, motels, theaters and shops of all types.  28th Street at that time was pretty much mile after mile of 2 lane rural road.

 

This "rail yard" was the yard for the passenger depot - Union Station. This was the center of transportation in GR until the auto era.

[GR_Urbanist]

Maybe they can move between Franklin&Division and Burton Heights? Or maybe by Wealthy and Market? Wherever in that area, they need to be spaced far apart. The further apart, the better spread out the population is, the less influence pushers and crooks can exert, the less loitering in a central area, and maybe the easier it is to manage the population (fewer fights?).

 

Another problem is that all of the homeless ARE lumped into the same boat. Drunk losers are in the same place with the mentality disabled, battered women, and disabled veterans, and all of them are forced to compete with jerks from out of town leeching off of limited resources. I contend that once you subtract out the out of town people + those that refuse to try to better themselves + the plain lazy, you can take care of the truly needy that are from the immediate area.

 

Unfortunately you cant get all of these non-profits, church groups, and storefront ministries to get serious about clamping down and better organizing because they think they will make Jesus cry if they change one inch. And why on Earth are all of these institutions separate entities anyway? Why are several churches passing out free meals outside of the soup kitchens? We now have a migrating wave of homeless that undulates between Wealthy and the public library everyday like clockwork. Sleeping and loitering on almost every street and in every park waiting for the next meal, and waiting for the check-in at the shelter.

 

You simply cannot sustain this pathetic spectacle and then think that the redevelopment in the area will just blend in. If it hasn't happened now, you can expect visible security to start appearing on the corner of Cherry and Division where the new apartments are going in to move people along, and where the building next to it has recently been rehabbed (the Goodwill has had a full-time security guard for a while now). A multi-million dollar development isn't going to just be left to become part of the old Heartside expectation that everything needs to be shabby-friendly so it doesnt upset the homeless. Those days are over. I just wonder if many of the shelters down there realize it?

 

What my hope is that the properties for Degege and Guiding Light become so valuable, that the organizations sell for a major profit and build better facilities (hopefully as a united group) further south and purchase a shuttle van/bus. 

[RegalTDP]

This thread has been circling the drain for days now.  Does anybody have any actual ideas on how to incentivize a ministry to relocate?

 

Anybody?

 

[*crickets*] 

 

Me neither.

 

Unless someone has something new to say, I respectfully request that this topic be shut down.

[GR_Urbanist]

The area continues to improve. People with money continue to move in. Property values increase, offers are made for their property, and they take it and move with a tidy profit.

 

Is this something that shouldn't be discussed?

 

 

 

This thread has been circling the drain for days now.  Does anybody have any actual ideas on how to incentivize a ministry to relocate?

 

Anybody?

 

[*crickets*] 

 

Me neither.

 

Unless someone has something new to say, I respectfully request that this topic be shut down.

[MJLO]

So I guess my question is how have other cities dealt with this?  I assume it is a-typical to see all shelters to be located within a 3 block radius in most cities?   Is it common for a city of GR's size to have as many homeless shelters as we do?  How do the successful cities that GR models itself after deal with the issue of gentrification?  It seems to be the socially responsible class warfare mantra to demonize bad neighborhoods transforming into hip upper scale destinations so I assume there has to be examples of places that have both had a resurgance and kept the shelters, outreach programs, and soup kitchens.

[jas49503]

I think the only way the shelters are going to move it for a developer to come in and make them an offer that they cannot refuse.  something that pays for the move and an upgrade of facilities/programs.  The city can pass some regulation, some zoning change, that prevents a shelter opening within a certain distance of another one.  this takes time and doesn't seem like a realistic short term solution.