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Keeler Building - 56 North Division


joeDowntown

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14 minutes ago, GR_Urbanist said:

Our long national nightmare is over!

I hope that this may include a parking ramp on Ellis lot, hopefully with at least one story of retail  and the parking above. Otherwise this isn't going to get many tenants.

Parking definitely could be a concern. There don't appear to be many monthly passes left (at least in city ramps).

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1 hour ago, organsnyder said:

Parking definitely could be a concern. There don't appear to be many monthly passes left (at least in city ramps).

Practically speaking, this is zero available ramp space to accommodate this.  Pearl is full, Ottawa is full, and Monroe Center is full.  Therefore, I say this is a non-starter without a new ramp.  My guess is that's why the due diligence period is extending out so long.  They just aren't publicly stating it.  Renovating the building is easy.  Negotiating the parking ramp deal?  Maybe not so much.  Of course, Franklin knows this since they clogged up the entire city when Spectrum rammed an outrageous number of people into a much smaller footprint than normal.  No business with half a brain (I assume) is looking at downtown right now with the parking situation how it is.  It's a complete disaster and I can only guess all the commercial realtors are collectively sh----g their pants.  But maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe that bus thing is working out.

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5 minutes ago, x99 said:

Practically speaking, this is zero available ramp space to accommodate this.  Pearl is full, Ottawa is full, and Monroe Center is full.  Therefore, I say this is a non-starter without a new ramp.  My guess is that's why the due diligence period is extending out so long.  They just aren't publicly stating it.  Renovating the building is easy.  Negotiating the parking ramp deal?  Maybe not so much.  Of course, Franklin knows this since they clogged up the entire city when Spectrum rammed an outrageous number of people into a much smaller footprint than normal.  No business with half a brain (I assume) is looking at downtown right now with the parking situation how it is.  It's a complete disaster and I can only guess all the commercial realtors are collectively sh----g their pants.  But maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe that bus thing is working out.

Sometimes I swear grumpy cat sits on the other end of that computer.

Is there some reason the Ellis lot next door couldn't be developed into a ramp?  I've always thought the parking situation for that building would be tied to that lot.  That lot across the street next to the building the county just sold could also be turned into a parking deck.

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2016/01/developer_buys_downtowns_keele.html

Notice the completely different spin MLive is putting on it.  They are saying it was purchased and that they are going to invest $10 million into it. 

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3 hours ago, MJLO said:

Notice the completely different spin MLive is putting on it.  They are saying it was purchased and that they are going to invest $10 million into it.  

Hey.. it's big news, I agree.  But the extended due diligence period to me is the most noteworthy.  It's basically being treated as vacant development land, which is effectively is.  For this project to work, Franklin has to put a lot of pieces together.  They've done renovations before and obtained tenants before.  That part is probably small potatoes.  My guess is the due diligence process is basically this:  1)  Nail down renovation cost, 2) Find parking, 3) Find at least one major tenant.  Two years ago, this project would have been much easier to pull off because you wouldn't have this multi-million dollar ramp build hurdle.  It's fantastic if this comes to fruition, but it's a tall order.

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55 minutes ago, x99 said:

Hey.. it's big news, I agree.  But the extended due diligence period to me is the most noteworthy.  It's basically being treated as vacant development land, which is effectively is.  For this project to work, Franklin has to put a lot of pieces together.  They've done renovations before and obtained tenants before.  That part is probably small potatoes.  My guess is the due diligence process is basically this:  1)  Nail down renovation cost, 2) Find parking, 3) Find at least one major tenant.  Two years ago, this project would have been much easier to pull off because you wouldn't have this multi-million dollar ramp build hurdle.  It's fantastic if this comes to fruition, but it's a tall order.

But ramps in of themselves are still revenue generators no?  If there is a demand I can't imagine it wouldn't be feasible.

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21 minutes ago, MJLO said:

But ramps in of themselves are still revenue generators no?  If there is a demand I can't imagine it wouldn't be feasible.

They are revenue generators, but are they profit generators. If the cost of a ramp has risen to $25000 per space, and going rates downtown for ramps are $150 - $300 per space per month, how long does it take to recoup your investment? If you're a city, you can have a 20 - 30 year payback. If you're a business like Ellis, I would imagine it has to be shorter than that...

Now if FP can finance the ramp construction and roll it into the office rents (like Arena Place) then maybe it would work. But I would bet Ellis wants an astronomical figure for the parking lot to just sell it outright. It's almost exactly 1/2 acre, so I wouldn't be surprised if Ellis want $2 Million to move them off of it. 

FYI, the current surface lot is a 75ish space lot. 

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Parking is definitely a huge concern and something I hope they are fast tracking. I still think the best bet is the ramp behind the arena. But they need to get started soon or I think you are going to see some developments stall. It used to be easy to get a parking spot in the UICA ramp. In the last year it has become really hard after 8am. Almost impossible after 9. It's a good problem to have but...

The Keeler building is actually only two blocks from the ramp on Ionia. The problem is 1) is it full and 2) are people too lazy to walk two blocks. Should be interesting to see what happens. 

Joe

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It's interesting that everyone is talking about the lack of parking, and the need for a ramp here. However, the reporters who spoke to Franklin Partners for this story failed to ask these important questions.  The bottom line is Franklin knows what they are doing, and they will walk away if it doesn't make sense.  I'm very optimistic about their success here.

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9 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

Parking is definitely a huge concern and something I hope they are fast tracking. I still think the best bet is the ramp behind the arena. But they need to get started soon or I think you are going to see some developments stall. It used to be easy to get a parking spot in the UICA ramp. In the last year it has become really hard after 8am. Almost impossible after 9. It's a good problem to have but...

The Keeler building is actually only two blocks from the ramp on Ionia. The problem is 1) is it full and 2) are people too lazy to walk two blocks. Should be interesting to see what happens. 

Joe

The Pearl - Ionia ramp (according to the city's parking study) only has about 30 monthly passes left, of the 480 or so spaces. I think that ramp is designed to add floors to it? 

http://s3.amazonaws.com/downtowngr.org/general/GR_Forward_A4.pdf?mtime=20151119112738

I would assume that since this study was done, Louis Campau and Fulton Ottawa are now nearly full (thanks to the great work of Franklin Partners in filling downtown office space). 

 

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35 minutes ago, mpchicago said:

It's interesting that everyone here is talking about the lack of parking, and the need for a ramp here. However, the reporters who spoke to Franklin Partners for this story failed to ask these important questions.  The bottom line is Franklin knows what they are doing, and they will walk away if it doesn't make sense.  I'm very optimistic about their success here.

Absolutely they know what they're doing. They know this isn't Chicago, and helped Spectrum come up with a parking plan. 

In response to arcturus' post ^^^^  I'm still of the mindset that surface lots are the broken teeth of a city, and should be developed. They're a horribly inefficient way to use land in a downtown area where land is expensive and you have more vertical freedom to build. And if ramps become cost-prohibitive, then the next step (one that we've all talked about here) is to move the DASH system further outside of downtown. Express commuter bus service that doesn't meander through 15 neighborhoods on the way to downtown. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

Absolutely they know what they're doing. They know this isn't Chicago, and helped Spectrum come up with a parking plan. 

In response to arcturus' post ^^^^  I'm still of the mindset that surface lots are the broken teeth of a city, and should be developed. They're a horribly inefficient way to use land in a downtown area where land is expensive and you have more vertical freedom to build. And if ramps become cost-prohibitive, then the next step (one that we've all talked about here) is to move the DASH system further outside of downtown. Express commuter bus service that doesn't meander through 15 neighborhoods on the way to downtown. 

 

 

Maybe turn some DASH lots into DASH ramps?  I wonder how many of these new workers downtown will start taking advantage of the housing.  That might help too.

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12 hours ago, mpchicago said:

It's interesting that everyone is talking about the lack of parking, and the need for a ramp here. However, the reporters who spoke to Franklin Partners for this story failed to ask these important questions.  The bottom line is Franklin knows what they are doing, and they will walk away if it doesn't make sense.  I'm very optimistic about their success here.

I totally agree. I do think there is an overall parking problem (especially for the people who always bitch about parking). My office is moving and we had a real problem finding parking, and my office is full of people that don't feel the need to see their car from the office window. The lack of parking is becoming a legitimate concern.

I also think the Keeler building has a perception problem. Division is wide and fast where Keeler is and feels a bit detached (even though, as I said before, there are lots relatively close). 

It'll be interesting to see what happens. I remember people in the past talking about the potential for some parking under the building. I wonder if it is feasible with the way the building is designed (and more importantly for the developer, economically feasible). 

I hope Franklin puts together a fantastic proposal. It makes me sick watching the building crumble and they seem like a company that will come in and do it right. 

Joe

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12 hours ago, MJLO said:

Maybe turn some DASH lots into DASH ramps?  I wonder how many of these new workers downtown will start taking advantage of the housing.  That might help too.

I'd rather they didn't fill the West Side with a bunch of parking ramps. It's way cheaper to just buy a chunk of land 2 or 3 miles out and have park-n-ride. 

Ann Arbor does it:

http://www.theride.org/services/commuter-services/park-ride

Free parking, you just pay for the bus pass ($58/month). 

Some might but certainly not all. Maybe 1/2? Or less? 

 

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This is just a pipedream, but that surface lot just south of the Keeler has a lot of potential.  If they were to do a ramp there with ground floor retail/restaurants, I imagine anything that would go in there would have to try really hard to be unsuccessful.  First of all, whatever they do with the Keeler (offices/residential) would put a large number of people just next door, then you have the Civic across Library, where people could stop in for a meal before or after a show.  Across Division is 82 Ionia, which KCAD/Ferris could very well turn that into student housing, with some retail hopefully on the ground floor as well.  Then just a short hop away is the newly populated Morton.  That lot is somewhat central to the Civic, the public library, Childrens museum and the Veterans Memorial Park, they could do something to try and make this a cultural 'hub'.

Like I said, just a pipedream of mine.  As someone who lives in Belknap and walks downtown fairly often, the stretch of Division from Michigan to about Fulton is rather uninspiring and boring to walk.  I will typically either walk through Heritage Hill or head on over to Ionia/Ottawa before turning south.

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On Saturday, January 23, 2016 at 8:56 PM, GRDadof3 said:

Yep. That will be on the Laker Line BRT which I think will pretty much be a straight shot to the West Side, or at least close to downtown.

That's not what we're(JBAN) hearing from The Rapid. The neighbors organized out there and got super NIMBY. That property is off the list of potential parking sites for the Laker Line. The Rapid is hinting at combining with the Zoo on paving over the green space/soccer fields at the Zoo and share parking there. Also a non-starter, those neighbors will organize quickly and have in the past.

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10 hours ago, thebeerqueer said:

That's not what we're(JBAN) hearing from The Rapid. The neighbors organized out there and got super NIMBY. That property is off the list of potential parking sites for the Laker Line. The Rapid is hinting at combining with the Zoo on paving over the green space/soccer fields at the Zoo and share parking there. Also a non-starter, those neighbors will organize quickly and have in the past.

Wow, that's unfortunate. Maybe they can get a park-n-ride by that new bike tunnel under LMD?

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It truly is unfortunate. The Laker Line will be a nice addition to the transit options for GR but the parking issue needs to be solved.

 

The other suggestion that The Rapid had is that the already parking-strapped Westside absorb the influx of cars. The daunting topic of permit parking for the lower Westisde was brought up too. Does anyone have any idea how its going in Belknap (besides construction workers getting tickets)?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/26/2016 at 9:12 AM, thebeerqueer said:

Does anyone have any idea how its going in Belknap (besides construction workers getting tickets)?

Great!  I can actually park in front of my house again instead of 2 blocks away.  In the winter, the hospital employees didn't pay attention to the odd/even parking signs on the streets, so when a plow would eventually make its way to our street they would just plow in the cars that lined both sides of the street.  On Wednesday nights I would pull my trash/recycling bins out to the street for the Thursday morning pick up only to come home from work to find them still full of trash because some hospital employee had pulled my bins up off the street back into my yard so they could squeeze into a spot that half blocked my neighbors driveway, it was infuriating.  I still see plenty of people in scrubs everyday walking a few extra blocks to take advantage of the streets further north that don't have the permit parking requirement.

Funny story, ok, maybe funny for me only, but here I go.  Sometime in the summer last year, a city parking employee came to our street and mistakenly removed the permit parking signs right in front of my house, and they came swarming back like mosquitoes.  I had a couple go arounds with the parking department pleading with them to get the signs back and thankfully they realized their mistake.  A day or two after the signs went back up, some girl, who loved to park in front of my house at 6:30AM and would sit there on her phone for like 20 minutes with her music blaring, decided one day that she was going to just back up into my car and park, with her bumper using my bumper as a rest stop.  I was walking down my stairs so I saw this happen, so I run outside in my PJs and start yelling at her through her rolled up window.  After a few seconds when she actually notices me outside her car screaming, which she couldn't her because of the music and all, cracks her window and I let her know what just happened, so she assures me her car comes with a back up feature that beeps when you get too close to something.  I let her know what I think of such a feature and that this street is again permit parking, so she goes screaming off somewhere never to be seen again.

After reading that story, I feel I should explain I'm not some 60 year old man who goes running after kids in a bathrobe telling them to stay off my lawn, I'm a 31 year old man who does that :D (just kidding)

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