A second commercial airport for Charlotte?

[ssh214]

Well sure, but how realistic is that expectation in the case of Concord? The basic math is bleak, they have to build an entirely new terminal, they may need to pay to attract flights and they will need to pay operating costs all for less than the $1 (or so) per passenger that CLT currently moves people for. How many passengers per year do you need to pay off (and operate) a new $40 million terminal? I am no math-magician but I think that would be upwards of 5,000 passengers per day (40-70 flights?) to operate the new terminal without subsidy (at a $1 per passenger fee -- anything higher and CLT wins the economic battle).

 

Once you add in the negative effects of spreading flights out over more than one airport (any flight to Concord takes connectivity away from CLT) then Concord expansion begins to feel like a net negative to the region's economy (even without discussing the nature of federal subsidies).  Like I said, the story would be very different if there was a capacity crunch at CLT. However, in the absence of that, the Concord regional plan feels like little more than federal (90%), state (?) and local (10%) subsidies for sprawl. Even worse, these investments will reduce the value of CLT to the region. 

Agree with this 1000%... If it were up to me I would not even allow Concord to have any commercial flights... I just don't see the point of it. Let's get a line going to CLT first. Atlanta doesn't even have a second airport...

[RiverwoodCLT]

I would like to see a LRT line to Charlotte Douglas first.

[caterpillar2]

I would like to see a LRT line to Charlotte Douglas first.

With all the growth in South Charlotte, Southend, and the popularity or uptown,  a light rail from Woodlawn or Tyvola Stations to the airport sound perfectly sensible. With the connection change at those two stations, we will be opening a opportunity to get to the airport mostly hassle free from Pineville to UNCC in the next few years. We are getting real big. We need to start thinking real big. I will gladly pay another 1 percent tax for such a sensible venture.

[cltbwimob]

I agree that an LRT line to CLT is much more important than a line to Concord's airport, but that is not the point of this topic. I was merely speculating that an LRT line to Concord airport might make sense from a ridership perspective because it would touch an airport that seems poised for growth, Concord Mills, the speedway, and it would reintroduce a park and ride at 485. It could push ridership into the stratosphere. Why? Because millions of people visit Concord Mills each year, each race weekend brings in hundreds of thousands of people, and it would connect the Concord airport to the markets that already exist (e.g. Uptown, Southend, UNCC, etc).

While we are on off topic discussions, I do not think an LRT line connecting CLT to Tyvola station is sensible if the point is to make a logical connection from the airport to uptown or Southend. Not only is it not a logical connection to uptown and Southend, it would be extremely cumbersome to travel to points north such as UNCC. At a minimum, it would add 20-30 minutes of travel time to nearly every major travel destination along the Blue Line and the BLE vis-a-vis a connection uptown. There are also potential problems of lost connectivity to other major lines such as the Silver or Gold Line. Bottom line, making travel cumbersome to most points along the Blue Line and creating illogical connections to the rest of the system is not going to do anything but provide ammunition for the anti-transit crowd.

[seth0423]

With all the growth in South Charlotte, Southend, and the popularity or uptown,  a light rail from Woodlawn or Tyvola Stations to the airport sound perfectly sensible. With the connection change at those two stations, we will be opening a opportunity to get to the airport mostly hassle free from Pineville to UNCC in the next few years. We are getting real big. We need to start thinking real big. I will gladly pay another 1 percent tax for such a sensible venture.

 

If you are going to run it to the airport via tyvola, why not extend that branch to southpark? 

[ssh214]

If you are going to run it to the airport via tyvola, why not extend that branch to southpark? 

This was my thinking as to why a line down tyvola/fairview would actually have some merit to it

[jednc]

Well sure, but how realistic is that expectation in the case of Concord? The basic math is bleak, they have to build an entirely new terminal, they may need to pay to attract flights and they will need to pay operating costs all for less than the $1 (or so) per passenger that CLT currently moves people for. How many passengers per year do you need to pay off (and operate) a new $40 million terminal? I am no math-magician but I think that would be upwards of 5,000 passengers per day (40-70 flights?) to operate the new terminal without subsidy (at a $1 per passenger fee -- anything higher and CLT wins the economic battle).

Once you add in the negative effects of spreading flights out over more than one airport (any flight to Concord takes connectivity away from CLT) then Concord expansion begins to feel like a net negative to the region's economy (even without discussing the nature of federal subsidies). Like I said, the story would be very different if there was a capacity crunch at CLT. However, in the absence of that, the Concord regional plan feels like little more than federal (90%), state (?) and local (10%) subsidies for sprawl. Even worse, these investments will reduce the value of CLT to the region.

I think you have a much better handle on this than I do and I think you're right.

[AuLukey]

We are skewing off topic a bit, but a case must be made for Concord Mills, the Speedway, and 485 park and ride.  TOD actually is a strong possibility along N Tryon headed into the speedway area from 485.  There is a vast swath of completely undeveloped land along that stretch fronting Tryon.  I'd venture to say it's the longest stretch of Tryon in Mecklenburg County without any significantly developed property.  Between 485 and the Meck County line (2.5 miles) there is an entrance to a neighborhood deeply set back from the road, a water treatment plant (again, deeply set back,) and a scuba diving class facility.  The light rail could run down the almost completely unused auxiliary lane down the center of Tryon without so much as widening the road a few feet on either side, not much valuable land acquisitions involved there.  If it benefits tourism and the suburban commute, I highly doubt the county/city/speedway owned land would be anything but negligible at best.  Hell, a park and ride could be implemented at the speedway with the 25000 parking spots that already exist just past the county line.  Also, I'm sure they wouldn't mind a CATs owned park and ride facility that shares the profits on race/event days.  Sure the speedway itself only has a handful of races per year, but with the additions of the drag strip and dirt tracks, that area stays surprisingly active practically year round.  It would be a net positive for the entire blue line and possibly even encourage more trips to/from uptown on event days.

 

It would be a much harder case for the extension to Concord Mills, at some point the LRT would have to veer off of Bruton Smith Blvd because widening the I-85 bridge just simply wouldn't be economical due to the design of that exit and the insane amounts of traffic that rolls along that bridge every day.  A separate bridge for LRT would be required that would be most beneficial if it ran over 85 to the back side of the mall and had a terminal there instead of along Concord Mills Blvd.  A separate bridge would avoid having to buy significantly more expensive land and would avoid high traffic areas.  That COULD encourage development along that side of the mall's loop that has remained completely untouched due to the lack of street frontage.  And don't forget, they have Charlotte's only "aquarium" back there.

 

That said, there would be no economical way to get the LRT to Concord Airport from the backside of the mall.  There's just simply nowhere for it to go that wouldn't cost tens/hundreds of millions more.

[cltbwimob]

Looks like Concord will be voting soon on a $6 million financing contract for a new parking deck and airport terminal.  Also, they plan to accept a $6.4 million dollar FAA grant for a new terminal as well.

From the Independent Tribune:

The city will hold a public hearing at its regular monthly meeting at 6 p.m. Thursday about its proposed $6 million financing contract for a parking deck and the city’s portion of a new commercial terminal at the Concord Regional Airport, according to the meeting agenda.

The city also plans to accept a $6.4 million Federal Aviation Administration grant for the terminal and likely will vote on authorizing a contract with KMD Construction contingent upon receipt of the FAA grant funds.

[eastsider]

Allegiant is adding route from Concord, this tme to New Orleans. Flights will be operated twice weekly beginning on Nov. 18.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2016/08/30/allegiant-7-route-expansion-features-puerto-rico-austin-and-pittsburgh/89569998/

[jednc]

On 3/5/2015 at 0:20 PM, Neo said:

Concord is very serious about being a contender for being a second commercial airport for the metro. I would expect to see new airlines coming onboard once the new terminal is finished and the airport solidifies that they are a serious contender for O/D traffic.

1

Whatever happened to the plans for other airlines to come to Concord Regional? I know I read something (here or elsewhere, but can't find now) that listed 4 different discount airlines that were interested in Concord and had been in talks with the airport to potentially serve the airport after the construction of the terminal was complete. Any news on this front?

[Scribe]

I have a feeling that Allegiant has a few years of exclusive rights to commercial flights at Concord, that is why we have not heard of anything, but, that is just my speculation.

[uptownliving]

Well Frontier decided to go to CLT and that basically leaves Spirit. At this point with new gates becoming available at CLT in 9 months, maybe Spirit is holding out for CLT as well.

[ssh214]

7 hours ago, uptownliving said:

Well Frontier decided to go to CLT and that basically leaves Spirit. At this point with new gates becoming available at CLT in 9 months, maybe Spirit is holding out for CLT as well.

I'm hopeful this is the case... Charlotte doesn't need a second airport, I'd rather there be more airlines in CLT. I wish Allegiant would move to Charlotte too when the new gates open, but I doubt it

[Neo]

On 8/18/2017 at 2:24 PM, jednc said:

Whatever happened to the plans for other airlines to come to Concord Regional? I know I read something (here or elsewhere, but can't find now) that listed 4 different discount airlines that were interested in Concord and had been in talks with the airport to potentially serve the airport after the construction of the terminal was complete. Any news on this front?

Unfortunately I don't have any more information at this time.

On 8/19/2017 at 5:18 PM, saamh said:

I'm hopeful this is the case... Charlotte doesn't need a second airport, I'd rather there be more airlines in CLT. I wish Allegiant would move to Charlotte too when the new gates open, but I doubt it

I don't dispute that Charlotte can do without a second airport, BUT I've heard some major kudos from travelers going through Concord that they can be in their car on the way home before they would be out of the restroom at CLT. The lines created at CLT waiting for a runway for take off can get quite long at times...a situation that is completely avoided at Concord. Given the cheap fares of Allegiant and the hassle of all the additional fees they impose on customers, I feel it would be worse for the company to add any delays to flights.

[CLT2014]

Aren't we pretty much down to just Spirit, Alaska, and Sun Country for potential new domestic airlines to the Charlotte area? 

Alaska would certainly end up at CLT if they added service, so that leaves Spirit as the wildcard. Would they follow Frontier over to CLT or Allegiant to Concord?

[cjd5050]

On 8/19/2017 at 5:18 PM, saamh said:

I'm hopeful this is the case... Charlotte doesn't need a second airport, I'd rather there be more airlines in CLT. I wish Allegiant would move to Charlotte too when the new gates open, but I doubt it

I strongly disagree here.  

The deep-discount airlines like Allegiant and Spirit don't belong at CLT.  Especially with CLT being a hub.  These airlines operation on a much different spectrum than the big boys and that needs to be considered.  If these two were to grow just at Concord that would be outstanding.  The reason I think this is I want the experience at CLT to grow and I just don't think these airlines can afford to pay what's needed for this to happen.  The big boys can.  

For the new gates at CLT, I would much rather see growth in domestic airlines like Southwest, JetBlue, and Alaska.  It would be awesome if each of these operated beyond just an afterthought.  

[Scribe]

On 8/19/2017 at 5:18 PM, saamh said:

Charlotte doesn't need a second airport

I also disagree with the above - but not for the reasons @cjd5050 lists.

43 minutes ago, cjd5050 said:

I strongly disagree here.  

The deep-discount airlines like Allegiant and Spirit don't belong at CLT.  Especially with CLT being a hub.  These airlines operation on a much different spectrum than the big boys and that needs to be considered.  If these two were to grow just at Concord that would be outstanding.  The reason I think this is I want the experience at CLT to grow and I just don't think these airlines can afford to pay what's needed for this to happen.  The big boys can.  

I think Charlotte can and will support multiple airports. Not because CLT is occupied by "big boys" or that "they operate differently".  CLT has for ages been expensive to fly out of (avg. ticket price) but the current logistics are also not helping. Once this phase is done in 2022-ish - I think - it will get better and all the construction/headache will be worth it.

But Concord should use this as an opportunity to create a niche for itself. It will not harm CLT in the long run, but it will greatly benefit the greater metro area.

Take for example: Just shy of 28000 people (this is just students - not faculty+staff) call UNC Charlotte their home for 9 months of the year. When it comes to taking a weekend getaway CLT is out of range for a vast majority of the students at the university. But Concord with low-cost airlines that takes you to Thanksgiving break, winter-break, spring-break (FL or any beach + warm town), New Orleans LA (Mardi Gras - winter), and every weekend in between.

Then you have the local population - Concord, Harrisburg, Kannapolis, etc - with many people that have not been outside the Carolina's in their life. With a low cost option, plus the convenience of a simple and clean airport could be the catalyst that gets them exploring the rest of the US and the world!

I wish Concord Regional Airport the best and hope that they get at least one more low-cost commercial airline in the next 12 months. (and I believe it will happen)

[cjd5050]

15 minutes ago, Scribe said:

I also disagree with the above - but not for the reasons @cjd5050 lists.

I think Charlotte can and will support multiple airports. Not because CLT is occupied by "big boys" or that "the operate differently".  CLT has for ages been expensive to fly out of (avg. ticket price) but the current logistics are also not helping. Once this phase is done in 2022-ish - I think - it will get better and all the construction/headache will be worth it.

But Concord should use this as an opportunity to create a niche for itself. It will not harm CLT in the long run, but it will greatly benefit the greater metro area.

Take for example: Just shy of 28000 people (this is just students - not faculty+staff) call UNC Charlotte their home for 9 months of the year. When it comes to taking a weekend getaway CLT is out of range for a vast majority of the students at the university. But Concord with low-cost airlines that takes you to Thanksgiving break, winter-break, spring-break (FL or any beach + warm town), New Orleans LA (Mardi Gras - winter), and every weekend in between.

Then you have the local population - Concord, Harrisburg, Kannapolis, etc - with many people that have not been outside the Carolina's in their life. With a low cost option, plus the convenience of a simple and clean airport could be the catalyst that gets them exploring the rest of the US and the world!

I wish Concord Regional Airport the best and hope that they get at least one more low-cost commercial airline in the next 12 months. (and I believe it will happen)

2

We are kinda saying the same thing.  I don't know how the economics break down but I am pretty sure an airline needs to pay more to fly out of Charlotte than out of Concord.  This price gets passed on to the consumer.  At some point, the fees will price a segment out of the market. I don't want CLT having to deal with kickback from discount airlines in increasing fees to build out amenities that business travelers want and need so that they can remain lower priced.  

Allegiant is like that childhood friend in your group who didn't go to college and you're still hanging around with in your 30s.  You think you want to include them when you plan the trip to Vegas because, the more the merrier, but it gets old quick when you get there and every activity has to be toned down to account for their budget.  

[Scribe]

1 minute ago, cjd5050 said:

Allegiant is like that childhood friend in your who didn't go to college and you're still hanging around in your 30s.  You think you want to include them when you plan the trip to Vegas because, the more the merrier, but it gets old quick when you get there and every activity has to be toned down to account for their budget.

I take it you have not done many backpacking or hostel trips. A Euro trip with Ryan Air, EasyJet and WizzAir that costs roughly $200 for 2 weeks of transportation (within Europe) is my reference point.

Allegiant is a great vehicle for that type of exploration. Young people going to explore a new city with a backpack and some cash for incidentals. There is no limiting ("toned down") factor there except your own perception of what "adventuring" should look like.

I get it - we both agree that Concord Regional Airport has a place in the greater metro, but there is no need to dismiss an airline just because it does not fit your needs. They seem to be doing something right, as they've been expanding their service since they started flying our of Concord.

[Scribe]

Actually, UNC Charlotte enrollment is almost 29k with about 22k being younger then 25.

Source: https://admissions.uncc.edu/about-unc-charlotte/university-profile 

[cjd5050]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

I take it you have not done many backpacking or hostel trips. A Euro trip with Ryan Air, EasyJet and WizzAir that costs roughly $200 for 2 weeks of transportation (within Europe) is my reference point.

Allegiant is a great vehicle for that type of exploration. Young people going to explore a new city with a backpack and some cash for incidentals. There is no limiting ("toned down") factor there except your own perception of what "adventuring" should look like.

I get it - we both agree that Concord Regional Airport has a place in the greater metro, but there is no need to dismiss an airline just because it does not fit your needs. They seem to be doing something right, as they've been expanding their service since they started flying our of Concord.

1

You're correct.  I do have not used discount airlines or stayed in hostels.  Don't have a desire to do either. 

 

I am not dismissing the airline or their passengers.  I am simply stating the clientele for Allegiant and American are not the same.  I want Charlotte Douglas to evolve to focus on the business traveler.  That's what drives everything.  Not the young person wanting to backpack through Europe for weeks on a few hundred dollars.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

How does the commercial activity at CLT affect this conversation? There is more freight than people daily thru the airport, no?

[cltbwimob]

6 minutes ago, Matthew.Brendan said:

How does the commercial activity at CLT affect this conversation? There is more freight than people daily thru the airport, no?

Depends on how you count freight... If you go by the number of pounds that pass through the airport every day, there are more pounds of freight than people.  However, if you go by tons of freight, there are many less tons than people.

That said, by pretty much anyone's standard, Charlotte is more of a passenger airport than freight airport.  There are approximately 10 dedicated cargo flights per day compared to 700+ passenger flights per day.  Now there is belly cargo that goes into the passenger planes; however most of the freight tonnage-approximately 2/3- that goes through the airport is on the dedicated cargo flights (read that somewhere on the airport website a few years ago I believe).

[rancenc]

One thing I would be curious to know are the percentage of charter flights that depart/arrive at  Charlotte-Douglas each day.  I could definitely see flights of that nature moved to Concord Regional.  This would free up any spaced used by charters for regular commercial flights.  I know personally, my parents take those types of flights to place to Biloxi, Memphis (Tunica MS casinos).