A second commercial airport for Charlotte?

[kickazzz2000]

Why can't we have something like Ryan Air.  I just booked  direct, round trip flights to London  on Finnair for over $1400. and that was the cheapest. Pretty disgusting prices. Concord might be an opportunity to get in a cheaper international flight.

 

I just hope the current service is successful enough that we maintain it, maybe get Spirit Air as well.  If businesses continue to grow on the Northeast side, A token Delta flight to ATL and LGA would be pretty awesome too (to give business travellers another option).    Of course this would require a new terminal.

 

Does Concord even have an FIS for int'l arrivals?

[dcharlotte]

I just hope the current service is successful enough that we maintain it, maybe get Spirit Air as well.  If businesses continue to grow on the Northeast side, A token Delta flight to ATL and LGA would be pretty awesome too (to give business travellers another option).    Of course this would require a new terminal.

 

Does Concord even have an FIS for int'l arrivals?

 

Doubtful. Business travelers need options as cost is not always the most important factor. If you miss the one flight a day to a major hub, you want to know there are many, many other options.

 

International flights in and out of Charlotte also require heavy leverage on the hub and spoke system US Airways built to the airport. Not every passenger going to London comes from a driving distance to Charlotte. 

[ScottCLT]

A coworker of mine tried to add up all the fees for a trip to get the total cost as a comparison to a major carrier. Though the ticket price seems nice on Allegient at first (and Frontier, Spirit), when you add the fees for online booking fees, checked bags, carry-ons, and to reserve a seat (so you don't end up in the middle), it actually was more expensive. I suppose if you can travel with everything in your laptop bag/purse and don't mind a couple elbows in your side, you would save money. But I would never fly this airline. It might drive down prices, which would be great, but this is like the Chinatown bus of airline travel.

[ssh214]

A coworker of mine tried to add up all the fees for a trip to get the total cost as a comparison to a major carrier. Though the ticket price seems nice on Allegient at first (and Frontier, Spirit), when you add the fees for online booking fees, checked bags, carry-ons, and to reserve a seat (so you don't end up in the middle), it actually was more expensive. I suppose if you can travel with everything in your laptop bag/purse and don't mind a couple elbows in your side, you would save money. But I would never fly this airline. It might drive down prices, which would be great, but this is like the Chinatown bus of airline travel.

Yea at first I was ecstatic about the new service with Allegiant to Fort Lauderdale because I could send our employees down to south Florida a lot cheaper, but after thinking about it, I would never let my guys fly on that airline, if I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't expect them to do it either... I really wish JetBlue would add that service to FLL, that would make a HUGE different, Allegiant is nice, but it really doesn't do much, I really doubt American is thinking much about this new service in terms of lowering prices...

[ChessieCat]

I wonder what the range is of one of Ryanair 737's out of London Stansted. That would really throw mud in the eye of all the legacy carriers who suppress competition and keep domestic prices high. Didn't they campaign against low cost carriers from going transatlantic.

It makes no sense that I can't fly to any major city in the eastern 3 rd of the country for less than 100 dollars max just for a weekend trip. I miss Ryanair!

737's in an all-economy configuration like Ryanair's don't have the range to fly transatlantic.  Only in all-business configuration are basic single-aisle aircraft feasible like BA's A318 service from LCY-JFK, and even then a re-fueling stop is required in Shannon going westward.  

 

757W's are the only single-aisle aircraft that have ability to fly most TATL routes in mixed configuration from the eastern seaboard.

 

Airbus is marketing the A330neo as a game charger for high capacity TATL routes and heavily trafficked routes connecting SE Asia/Australia with Northeast Asia.

[CltFlyer]

Yea at first I was ecstatic about the new service with Allegiant to Fort Lauderdale because I could send our employees down to south Florida a lot cheaper, but after thinking about it, I would never let my guys fly on that airline, if I wouldn't do it, I wouldn't expect them to do it either... I really wish JetBlue would add that service to FLL, that would make a HUGE different, Allegiant is nice, but it really doesn't do much, I really doubt American is thinking much about this new service in terms of lowering prices...

Allegiant is not for everyone, but they have their niche (mostly leisure and ultra low cost) and are quite successful at it.  

[Miesian Corners]

Ryanair is fine if you don't mind flying into an airport far from a city's center.  Once made that mistake with Frankfurt-Hahn.  FYI, Hahn is 75 miles from Frankfurt and it's a 2 hour drive by bus to FRA airport. Ryan is also notorious for charging for everything.  Example: in order to not pay a fee to check in at the airport, you have to print your boarding pass at home.  No problem, except when you read the fine print; they charge if the paper size used is not the European standard.  I printed at home before I left and still had to pay for this very reason.  

[NcSc74]

Ryanair is fine if you don't mind flying into an airport far from a city's center.  Once made that mistake with Frankfurt-Hahn.  FYI, Hahn is 75 miles from Frankfurt and it's a 2 hour drive by bus to FRA airport. Ryan is also notorious for charging for everything.  Example: in order to not pay a fee to check in at the airport, you have to print your boarding pass at home.  No problem, except when you read the fine print; they charge if the paper size used is not the European standard.  I printed at home before I left and still had to pay for this very reason.

I made that mistake also and ended up paying bout 70 euro to get to Ramstein; I was steaming mad by the time we got to our hotel. After a while though we learned to plan every detail of our trip at least a month out so we had transport, lodging and what clothes we needed for the trip. LCCs are great for weekend getaways if planning is done ahead of time. It cost us about 100 euros for 2 tickets from London Stanstead to Barcelona on a 3 day weekend. The total trip only cost us roughly 500 dollars total because we planned in advance. Like someone said LCC are not for everybody but if you can be flexible and travel light they are great ways to travel on a decent budget.

[NcSc74]

Back on topic, would the Ryanair business model work here though? Alleging and Spirit may be able to tap in to some of the practices and be successful. I'm not sure but I will say this about LCC's they do cater to a different crowd and that was something we had to get used too. I thought there was talk a long while ago a out US air flying their express out of Concord. That would be a good excuse for commuter rail running up that way.

[ChessieCat]

Back on topic, would the Ryanair business model work here though? Alleging and Spirit may be able to tap in to some of the practices and be successful. I'm not sure but I will say this about LCC's they do cater to a different crowd and that was something we had to get used too. I thought there was talk a long while ago a out US air flying their express out of Concord. That would be a good excuse for commuter rail running up that way.

Isn't Spirit the equivalent of Ryanair here in America?  Spirit dominates FLL airport and even flies to S. America from there, but they do charge for everything.  Would be nice if Spirit flew from CLT to FLL to provide access to their network to LatinAm-Caribbean, but plan in advance of course if you want to fly without the fees piling up... 

[CltFlyer]

Back on topic, would the Ryanair business model work here though? Alleging and Spirit may be able to tap in to some of the practices and be successful. I'm not sure but I will say this about LCC's they do cater to a different crowd and that was something we had to get used too. I thought there was talk a long while ago a out US air flying their express out of Concord. That would be a good excuse for commuter rail running up that way.

I don't think it would work as well.  In Europe many of the Major Flag Carriers ( IE...British Airways, Lufthansa etc...) are Gov't supported and aren't as focused on profit.  When a Ryanair enters a market the Gov't supported airlines  don 't have to worry as much about them as competition and lower prices as much.  In America it is much more hostile and it is not uncommon for major airlines to fight off the Allegiants and Spirit's by lowering  prices.  Hence It would be harder for a Ryanair type airline to succeed in America.

[Neo]

FWIW, I believe construction on a new permanent terminal will begin this spring in addition to a new ramp is still on. New security fencing, control tower, and widening of surrounding roads should also be coming soon. I believe that the new commercial terminal will be built on the Ivey Cline side. Private aviation would stay where it currently is and move all commercial operations to the other side of the runway.

 

Concord is very serious about being a contender for being a second commercial airport for the metro. I would expect to see new airlines coming onboard once the new terminal is finished and the airport solidifies that they are a serious contender for O/D traffic.

[AuLukey]

Back on topic, would the Ryanair business model work here though? Alleging and Spirit may be able to tap in to some of the practices and be successful. I'm not sure but I will say this about LCC's they do cater to a different crowd and that was something we had to get used too. I thought there was talk a long while ago a out US air flying their express out of Concord. That would be a good excuse for commuter rail running up that way.

 

Hypothetically IF Concord is successful in becoming the second commercial airport for the metro, having some sort of transit to the airport should have a pretty solid case.  As it stands right now, I believe only the 80x bus route runs anywhere close to the airport (Speedway.)  And as far as I know, not even the CKRider in Cabarrus County runs to the airport (although it goes to the Walmart half a mile away...)  If the BLE hadn't been cut back to UNCC and instead went to 485, a case could someday be made to extend it to the Speedway, CMills, and the airport.  But I don't see a strong possibility of that ever happening in the next few decades due to its current terminus.

 

 

At least the airport has a little pride in it's proximity to Charlotte, this picture is from their main page:

 

[cltbwimob]

FWIW, I believe construction on a new permanent terminal will begin this spring in addition to a new ramp is still on. New security fencing, control tower, and widening of surrounding roads should also be coming soon. I believe that the new commercial terminal will be built on the Ivey Cline side. Private aviation would stay where it currently is and move all commercial operations to the other side of the runway.

 

Concord is very serious about being a contender for being a second commercial airport for the metro. I would expect to see new airlines coming onboard once the new terminal is finished and the airport solidifies that they are a serious contender for O/D traffic.

I think that Spirit is the most likely airline to set up shop in Concord once the new terminal is built.  Also, I would not be surprised to see Frontier move their operations to Concord once the new terminal is built.  Perhaps Sun Country will show up as well.  It will be exciting to see their progress.

[cltbwimob]

Hypothetically IF Concord is successful in becoming the second commercial airport for the metro, having some sort of transit to the airport should have a pretty solid case.  As it stands right now, I believe only the 80x bus route runs anywhere close to the airport (Speedway.)  And as far as I know, not even the CKRider in Cabarrus County runs to the airport (although it goes to the Walmart half a mile away...)  If the BLE hadn't been cut back to UNCC and instead went to 485, a case could someday be made to extend it to the Speedway, CMills, and the airport.  But I don't see a strong possibility of that ever happening in the next few decades due to its current terminus.

 

 

At least the airport has a little pride in it's proximity to Charlotte, this picture is from their main page:

 

I wonder if a hypothetical BLE Extension (BLEE) to Concord Airport via the Speedway and Concord Mills area would be appealing to Cabarrus.  It seems like having the airport and two of the biggest tourist attractions in the state plus an I-485 park and ride could increase ridership significantly.  Additionally, connecting the airport to downtown Charlotte might make the airport a little more attractive for the business traveler.  Perhaps Cabarrus would even be inclined to contribute transit tax money to the system if such a hypothetical line existed.

[js4life]

^^cabarrus county has little to no interest in funding a rail extension that would cost hundreds of millions & possibly well over a billion dollars. Concord's airport is just a nice alternative for some looking to fly on the cheap

[dcharlotte]

^^cabarrus county has little to no interest in funding a rail extension that would cost hundreds of millions & possibly well over a billion dollars. Concord's airport is just a nice alternative for some looking to fly on the cheap

 

If it costs a billion dollars to get from the Mecklenburg County line to the mall, they are planning it wrong. 

[Niner National]

If it costs a billion dollars to get from the Mecklenburg County line to the mall, they are planning it wrong. 

5.4 miles through some areas that are fairly heavily developed could definitely approach a billion dollars. I'm sure this phase of the Blue Line will end up well over a billion since projects like this rarely come in at budget. In reality, it'd probably be more than 5.4 miles, that is just the distance Google Maps gave me using the fastest driving route.

[MilZ]

Also note that stations at the Speedway, Concord Mills, and the airport, would yield little to no TOD.

[js4life]

Any blue line extension would require major restructuring of 29 heading into cabarrus county not to mention Bruton smith blvd & you would need to build a massive bridge over 85. The right away alone might be in the hundreds of millions of dollars

[15895]

Also note that stations at the Speedway, Concord Mills, and the airport, would yield little to no TOD.

For those couple flights a week. On top of how convenient would it be for the region (for example would us in Lake Norman go down to the blue line to take rail to Concord)

At least with CLT you have thousands of employees & thousands of visitors and thousands who live along the around center city who could use a rail uptown to the airport.

[kermit]

^ While I do have a fantasy that CLT will eventually be connected to uptown by high-frequency rail I will say that the 4 times I have ridden the sprinter from the airport there were fewer than 5 people on the bus each time. Based on the absence of luggage they all appeared to be employees. How many passengers would a Concord airport train possibly generate?

 

I would be more invested in discussions about a second airport if CLT a) had capacity limitations or b) was expensive for airlines. Since neither condition exists I am struggling to see the point in spending tax dollars to build a Concord terminal.

[jednc]

^ While I do have a fantasy that CLT will eventually be connected to uptown by high-frequency rail I will say that the 4 times I have ridden the sprinter from the airport there were fewer than 5 people on the bus each time. Based on the absence of luggage they all appeared to be employees. How many passengers would a Concord airport train possibly generate?

 

I would be more invested in discussions about a second airport if CLT a) had capacity limitations or b) was expensive for airlines. Since neither condition exists I am struggling to see the point in spending tax dollars to build a Concord terminal.

I'm just guessing here, but Cabarrus Co. is willing to spend tax dollars to build a terminal because they hope the airport will generate more taxes paid back to the government. I would assume they look at it as an investment on which they hope to get a nice return.

[15895]

I'm very skeptical outside of Allegiant and maybe Frontier

[kermit]

I'm just guessing here, but Cabarrus Co. is willing to spend tax dollars to build a terminal because they hope the airport will generate more taxes paid back to the government. I would assume they look at it as an investment on which they hope to get a nice return.

 

Well sure, but how realistic is that expectation in the case of Concord? The basic math is bleak, they have to build an entirely new terminal, they may need to pay to attract flights and they will need to pay operating costs all for less than the $1 (or so) per passenger that CLT currently moves people for. How many passengers per year do you need to pay off (and operate) a new $40 million terminal? I am no math-magician but I think that would be upwards of 5,000 passengers per day (40-70 flights?) to operate the new terminal without subsidy (at a $1 per passenger fee -- anything higher and CLT wins the economic battle).

 

Once you add in the negative effects of spreading flights out over more than one airport (any flight to Concord takes connectivity away from CLT) then Concord expansion begins to feel like a net negative to the region's economy (even without discussing the nature of federal subsidies).  Like I said, the story would be very different if there was a capacity crunch at CLT. However, in the absence of that, the Concord regional plan feels like little more than federal (90%), state (?) and local (10%) subsidies for sprawl. Even worse, these investments will reduce the value of CLT to the region.