Tanger Outlet Mall to build 80-store center in Grand Rapids suburb

[GRDadof3]

Looks chintzy. Will be a forgotten part of town by locals in five years.

 

Considering it's the fastest growing area in the county by building permit activity, I think that might be wishful thinking.

 

And it's masonry, steel and glass. It looks like it might have better material than 3/4's of the downtown developments right now.

Any chance this spurs more hotel development around that area?

 

There's a big chunk of land at the end of Pfeiffer Farms Dr across 84th Street, and additional parcels in this industrial park where they're building (along the highway). I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I wonder how long before they add an on-off ramp at 92nd./

[GR8scott]

A lot of negative remarks, this is certainly a much better looking rendering than the one over by Howell, also something new to the area and something that is apparently in demand, if they dont build it here, they will build it in kzoo or by the casino in BC or ST Joe. This will bring new offerings to the area, jobs, tax dollars development that will eventually happen, I dont see why this is such a bad thing? There is one hotel at that exit but Im sure 1 or 2 more will follow along with restraunts and better gas station selection, yes I know its not all yuo "cups of tea" but its an improvement IMO

[GRDadof3]

Quality not quantity.

 

Well I don't know that you can make an argument that what is being built in the Byron Center area is of lower quality than what is currently being constructed in the city of GR. If you look at the recent apartment projects, there's a lot of EIFS on the exterior that probably won't age well, there's a lot of "value engineering" going on with the proposed projects (Arena Place, Fulton and Division, etc.), and a lot of it is being primarily subsidized by us taxpayers (LIHTC). Sometimes you have to set aside ideologies like "urbanites for life!" and face the reality of how the urban environment is being squandered with the current lineup of development projects.

 

I think even Metro Hospital is built with better quality materials than the Michigan Street development. At least it "appears" that way from the exterior..

 

Just as much as a vibrant core helps the entire metro area, a growing suburban area also helps the urban core and the metro area.

[GR8scott]

I never said it was a bad thing. Build another McDonald's / Applebee's / Holiday Inn / Shell village near these outlets. Cool. 

 

 

Sure there are plenty of McDonald's / Applebee's / Holiday Inn / Shell's all over the area but at least there will be new offerings of retails stores that are not in the area and hopefully some new national chains not in this area. I travel quite a bit and notice the brands and chains missing from West Michigan and am a big brand person, although love to see a good mix of quality local places also would like to see more diversity in the chains that are here especially since many lack quality IMO although to you they might be all the same. Maybe instead of MCDonals they bring in a Chick-fila, Hardee's, Jack in the box or Del Taco? Instead of Applebee's its a Champp's, Rock Bottom or even Hooter's is not in the area anymore. Holiday inn could be La Quina, Hilton Garden, 4 points, or something else not offered. And dont get me started on gas brands, bring in American sourced oil from Sunoco or Valero instead of British Petroleum and Citgo (Venezuelan government) that litter West and Northern Michigan

 

My point is even on the lower end of things theres plenty of better options that are not represented in the area maybe because its on a peninsula and the fraciesees/investors are insular along with the people that live here and dont see what else is out there? 

[joeDowntown]

I know this is Urban Planet, but I just don't understand why people are so negative about what seems to be a decent development, by a reputable company in the suburbs. 

 

This WILL succeed. People WILL go there. It WON'T destroy downtown. 

 

And many people in West Michigan will be crazy happy that we have these stores in town (heck, I semi-enjoy an occasional trip to an outlet mall; especially when it has a Puma or Adidas store.

 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

I know this is Urban Planet, but I just don't understand why people are so negative about what seems to be a decent development, by a reputable company in the suburbs. 

 

This WILL succeed. People WILL go there. It WON'T destroy downtown. 

 

And many people in West Michigan will be crazy happy that we have these stores in town (heck, I semi-enjoy an occasional trip to an outlet mall; especially when it has a Puma or Adidas store.

 

Joe

 

Exactly. Suburban = bad. $20 sandwich at downtown market fish vendor = good.  Apparently..

[GRDadof3]

I never said anything about downtown (since I'm the only one with recent "negative" comments, I know you're talking about me.)  I think you and dad are starting your own argument with my comments somehow the foundation.

 

I understand this development has it's place (albeit a chintzy one) but lets not cream our jeans about it. Jobs are cool but at $8.25 / hr? Not to mention most of those jobs are going bye bye soon as businesses like McDonald's / Chili's start replacing cashiers / waiters with touch screens. 

 

Oversold, overhyped, and chintzy. 

 

We didn't start an argument, you did:

 

"Looks chintzy. Will be a forgotten part of town by locals in five years." were your words. We're simply disagreeing with you, because your statements are untrue.

 

I'm not creaming my jeans, which is frankly a disgusting thought.

 

Me personally, I don't see myself ever going to this place. I don't even like driving out to Rivertown Crossings unless I absolutely need something from Younkers (about the only halfway decent men's department in GR). But I'm sure a lot of people will. It will be packed at the grand opening and will be pretty busy beyond that.

[ironyisadeadscene]

Considering it's the fastest growing area in the county by building permit activity, I think that might be wishful thinking.

 

And it's masonry, steel and glass. It looks like it might have better material than 3/4's of the downtown developments right now.

 

There's a big chunk of land at the end of Pfeiffer Farms Dr across 84th Street, and additional parcels in this industrial park where they're building (along the highway). I wouldn't be surprised.

 

I wonder how long before they add an on-off ramp at 92nd./

I figured it wouldn't be on its own little island and more developments would spur off it. 

[GRDadof3]

That's not starting an argument. That's stating my opinion. I didn't ask for input. I didn't puff my chest and check everyone to make sure they agreed with me. What are you, twelve?

 

Now that you mention it, I kind of feel like I"m twelve reading this.

 

Your opinion has been noted and recorded in the minutes. Thanks.

[Veloise]

Sure there are plenty of McDonald's / Applebee's / Holiday Inn / Shell's all over the area but at least there will be new offerings of retails stores that are not in the area and hopefully some new national chains not in this area. I travel quite a bit and notice the brands and chains missing from West Michigan and am a big brand person, although love to see a good mix of quality local places also would like to see more diversity in the chains that are here especially since many lack quality IMO although to you they might be all the same. Maybe instead of MCDonals they bring in a Chick-fila, Hardee's, Jack in the box or Del Taco? Instead of Applebee's its a Champp's, Rock Bottom or even Hooter's is not in the area anymore....

Not seeing this as a detrimental issue to the restaurant & retail mix. Just sayin'.

[arcturus]

Just as much as a vibrant core helps the entire metro area, a growing suburban area also helps the urban core and the metro area.

 

I knew 28th St served a valuable function!  A pity its so maligned.

[GRDadof3]

I knew 28th St served a valuable function!  A pity its so maligned.

 

I think 28th Street is probably responsible for much of the $40 Billion in retail sales generated in Kent County every year. Particularly with all of the motor vehicle sales. I do hate it though.

 

Here's some of the lineup for Tanger, for all the haters, the haters.

 

• Adidas

• Cole Haan

• Old Navy

• Nike Factory

• Brooks Brothers

• Calvin Klein

• Banana Republic

• Express

• Gap

• Children's Place

• Polo Ralph Lauren

• Talbot's

• American Eagle Outfitter

• Kay Jewelers

• Carters

• Under Armour

• Sketchers

• White House {sodEmoji.|} Black Market

 

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/08/tanger_outlet_ceo_reveals_reta.html#cmpid=nwsltrhead

[mgreven]

Anyone else chuckle at this headline after the "game changer" talk in the other thread?  Everything's a game changer...

 

$80 million Tanger Outlets mall will be 'game changer' for West Michigan http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/08/lt_gov_80_million_tanger_outle.html

[jas49503]

I think 28th Street is probably responsible for much of the $40 Billion in retail sales generated in Kent County every year. Particularly with all of the motor vehicle sales. I do hate it though.

 

Here's some of the lineup for Tanger, for all the haters, the haters.

 

• Adidas

• Cole Haan

• Old Navy

• Nike Factory

• Brooks Brothers

• Calvin Klein

• Banana Republic

• Express

• Gap

• Children's Place

• Polo Ralph Lauren

• Talbot's

• American Eagle Outfitter

• Kay Jewelers

• Carters

• Under Armour

• Sketchers

• White House {sodEmoji.|} Black Market

 

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/08/tanger_outlet_ceo_reveals_reta.html#cmpid=nwsltrhead

too bad most of the stores will carry none of the items available at the regular stores. only the crappy outlet store versions.  I honestly don't know why somewould drive from out of town to go to an outlet mall.  maybe if you lived in the area, but at this point there are so many of these things that, even if you are really hot for poorly made versions of designer clothing, you wouldn't have to drive very fall to get to an outlet mall. 

 

Overall, I would say it is a net postive but I really doubt that it would be in the "game changer" territory. That being said, it doesn't seem to take much to make something a game changer these days if 300k worth of upgrades to a theater also qualify.

[GRDadof3]

too bad most of the stores will carry none of the items available at the regular stores. only the crappy outlet store versions.  I honestly don't know why somewould drive from out of town to go to an outlet mall.  maybe if you lived in the area, but at this point there are so many of these things that, even if you are really hot for poorly made versions of designer clothing, you wouldn't have to drive very fall to get to an outlet mall. 

 

Overall, I would say it is a net postive but I really doubt that it would be in the "game changer" territory. That being said, it doesn't seem to take much to make something a game changer these days if 300k worth of upgrades to a theater also qualify.

 

 

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't call this a "game changer" at all. I wouldn't call much of anything a game changer.

 

It's our 3rd regional shopping center. Lansing has had three for almost 10 years now, glad we're finally catching up with a metro that's half our size.

[Jippy]

 

Anyone else chuckle at this headline after the "game changer" talk in the other thread?  Everything's a game changer...

 

$80 million Tanger Outlets mall will be 'game changer' for West Michigan http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/08/lt_gov_80_million_tanger_outle.html

 

 

The talk is kind of silly. Especially when they talk about generating $7.3 million in extra sales tax for the state.

 

Are they really projecting $121 million in additional sales attributed to 1) out-of-state shoppers and 2) in-state shoppers that would have otherwise made purchases in IN/IL? I would suspect that they are championing the projected total sales tax collected, which is really just substituted sales from elsewhere in the state. 

 

From a land-use perspective, one of two things will happen (probably a bit of both). 1) This will be successful and continue to bleed retail sales from existing regional retail corridors, and 2) after high enthusiasm over the first few years, sales at Tanger will begin to lag as it is so far removed from the population center. For example, what if Langer (Tanger's wayward cousin) built the same product mix 5 miles north? Allow Tanger to build the market and then pluck off the customers at a newer and more convenient location. This represents some of the final examples of extreme leap-frog exurban sprawl. I just don't envision the market continuing in this pre-Great Recession form. My guess, Breton Village/Woodland-style redevelopment will become more representative of the next era in retail development -- infill that is placed near population centers.  

[walker]

 

Anyone else chuckle at this headline after the "game changer" talk in the other thread?  Everything's a game changer...

 

$80 million Tanger Outlets mall will be 'game changer' for West Michigan http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/08/lt_gov_80_million_tanger_outle.html

 

 

Sadly the Mlive article seems hardly more than a cut and paste job of cheer leading press releases typical of Shandra Martinez.  It's a little scary when the comments are much more intelligent than the article.

.

[arcturus]

I think 28th Street is probably responsible for much of the $40 Billion in retail sales generated in Kent County every year. Particularly with all of the motor vehicle sales. I do hate it though.

 

Hate it but necessary.  Maybe half the 28th Street stores could move over to Michigan Street ... balance the load (and criticism) more equally.        

[RegalTDP]

The talk is kind of silly. Especially when they talk about generating $7.3 million in extra sales tax for the state.

 

Are they really projecting $121 million in additional sales attributed to 1) out-of-state shoppers and 2) in-state shoppers that would have otherwise made purchases in IN/IL? I would suspect that they are championing the projected total sales tax collected, which is really just substituted sales from elsewhere in the state. 

 

 

Agreed.  This kind of talk concerns me.  I was fine with this project because the location made sense to me - it's in one of the fastest growing areas in the county, it's well-suited to serve both GR and KZoo, and there's still room for more retail in West MI (at least to me there is).  You can build outlet malls if you're serving the needs of your market and it makes business sense... But if you're trying to pin economic hopes on it, you're setting yourself up for failure.  Brick & mortar retail can succeed, but it will never be a "game changer."  More and more computer-literate people would rather have goods shipped to them than drive 2 hours to shop for those goods.

[Kib]

too bad most of the stores will carry none of the items available at the regular stores. only the crappy outlet store versions.

Yup.  Looking at the list, it's the usual suspects.  Few of these places carry much in the way of discounted regular stock.  As noted above, mostly "outlet" versions that carry the label but have little else in common with the brand's products.

[x99]

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't call this a "game changer" at all. I wouldn't call much of anything a game changer.

 

I would call some things a game changer.  Finish clearing out tenants from the urban renewal schlock downtown and open up a shopping mall that is open from 9 to 9.  Game changer.  See how easy that was? 

[wmrharris]

From a land-use perspective, one of two things will happen (probably a bit of both). 1) This will be successful and continue to bleed retail sales from existing regional retail corridors, and 2) after high enthusiasm over the first few years, sales at Tanger will begin to lag as it is so far removed from the population center. For example, what if Langer (Tanger's wayward cousin) built the same product mix 5 miles north? Allow Tanger to build the market and then pluck off the customers at a newer and more convenient location. This represents some of the final examples of extreme leap-frog exurban sprawl. I just don't envision the market continuing in this pre-Great Recession form. My guess, Breton Village/Woodland-style redevelopment will become more representative of the next era in retail development -- infill that is placed near population centers.  

I would agree that this represents a sprawl development, but that necessarily means that the notion of population center is a bit more fluid. The question may be the location of value-conscious shoppers in the region. This suggests that the mall will reliably serve shoppers from the immediate neighborhood --  the center is after all located between two fast-growing townships (Byron Center and Gaines), and easily connects to Ottawa County by the M6. Allegan, Ottawa and SW Kent County seem to be the natural sources of most of its shoppers. For others, its proximity to the Casino adds to the appeal (I would also wonder if the development of the Casino hasn't already pushed the sprawl further south). Populations to the north towards Big Rapids may also find this location as easy to reach as the other two major retail areas (Woodland, Crossroads), and the better pricing may also appeal. As to losers? likely the big-box secondary stores (Babys R Us, Worldwide Market, Michaels, etc.) situated behind Crossroads, or for that matter CenterPointe (nee Eastbrook).

[GRDadof3]

I would call some things a game changer.  Finish clearing out tenants from the urban renewal schlock downtown and open up a shopping mall that is open from 9 to 9.  Game changer.  See how easy that was? 

 

I don't know, several of the country's largest downtown shopping malls are not doing so hot. It's been a while since I've read the articles but I think downtown Indianapolis and downtown PIttsburgh's malls were losing major anchor tenants and even looking at closing. Downtown Salt Lake City added a $2 Billion downtown mall funded by the Mormon Church because the other downtown mall was "dead."

 

I even saw an article lately that the 6th Street Mall in Denver was hurting from other urban retail districts that had gotten more trendy (ie Wealthy Street/East Hills compared to our downtown).

 

Anyway, rumor has it Tanger spent upwards of $30,000 on this groundbreaking ceremony...

 

All economic statistics aside, at least they did not ask for any tax abatements or credits. Usually when they throw around these overinflated estimates it's because they want something..

[jonathan.jam]

In other news, it was announced that H&M will open another store, 21% larger than their Woodland location at Tanger Outlets. The article doesn't make it clear on if this will actually be an outlet-styled shop or not:

http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2014/11/hm_confirms_a_second_bigger_st.html#incart_related_stories

[GRDadof3]

In case you were wondering how the Tanger center was coming along.

 

 

 

 

This is a massive retaining wall and detention pond area. Seems like it's almost 1/3 the site!