Shockoe Bottom Ballpark (Proposed)

[majors2410]

If the proposal had been to tear down brick buildings to build this I would have been completely against the proposal. But, very little would be torn down to accomplish much needed development. People need to walk around there and actually see how much vacant land is there. I was stunned by the amount of destruction the first time I walked it in along time. Total destruction of a neighborhood.

Also, its one thing to be against the development but to constantly suggest that the Mayor is proposing this as a way to make money for himself is beyond belief and shows what kind of people are opposing it. We should thank developers that want to invest in downtown. They could be doing the easy thing and build in short dump.

[Tarzan6179]

There are more than enough reasons to oppose this plan. First of all, there is almost definitely LOADS of history buried beneath this area that we have not even begun to explore. The city has refused to commit to a federal section 106 excavation of the area, and city council has previously voted down a bill requiring a full excavation prior to the start of any construction. The national trust for historic preservation, among many other groups, has expressed serious concern with the project. The Shockoe Bottom area was one of the largest areas for importing and holding slaves, and this area has yet to be fully explored.

 

Aside from the risk of destroying our history, lessening our knowledge, and furthering racial barriers, many feel that this sacred area should not be home to a baseball stadium at all, as it is disrespectful to our history.

 

Another reason to oppose the plan is the deceitful marketing tactics used which have pitted city residents against each other, and attempted to force the project down our throats. It's easy to be skeptical of a plan that promises new jobs and better schools, and spends $80 million on neither. Even after a record breaking crowd shows up to OPPOSE the plan at the city council meeting, it is still being worked out behind close doors. 

 

It's only a matter of time before the project is repackaged and marketed out to the taxpayers again. I have faith in the public and the council to make the right decisions.

[Shakman]

Just build the damn thing.

[eandslee]

Just build the damn thing.

 

Seriously!

[Icetera]

There are more than enough reasons to oppose this plan. First of all, there is almost definitely LOADS of history buried beneath this area that we have not even begun to explore. The city has refused to commit to a federal section 106 excavation of the area, and city council has previously voted down a bill requiring a full excavation prior to the start of any construction. The national trust for historic preservation, among many other groups, has expressed serious concern with the project. The Shockoe Bottom area was one of the largest areas for importing and holding slaves, and this area has yet to be fully explored.

 

Those lots have been vacant for decades.  If people were serious about excavating then they would have done so by now.

[Tarzan6179]

Those lots have been vacant for decades.  If people were serious about excavating then they would have done so by now.

 

It's what's under the lots, and the whole area. An excavation is an expensive process, and the opportunity hasn't always been available. Thinking short-term, the 2009 recession did nothing to help the potential excavation of the area. Thinking long-term, Richmond has a long history of racism, and excavating former slave trading areas has probably not been too high on the priority list because of this.

 

Additionally, the area is in a flood plain which makes development hard to attract, as there are additional expenses needed for infrastructure. This has further lessened the chances of an archaeological dig. 

 

Thinking about all that, why would we risk erasing our history? Once it's gone, there's no coming back. Aside from whether the stadium should be built on sacred ground, the historical excavation is an issue of national importance. 

 

That being said, the other plans for baseball on the boulevard, and redeveloping the diamond seem to be gaining popularity, and I think we will see the Shockoe proposal gradually fade away.

[JSI]

I think we will see the Shockoe proposal gradually fade away.

 

I sure hope not. That plan revitalized two neighborhoods, created jobs, added to our tax revenue, preserved history, etc. etc.

[eandslee]

An excavation is an expensive process, and the opportunity hasn't always been available. Thinking short-term, the 2009 recession did nothing to help the potential excavation of the area. Thinking long-term, Richmond has a long history of racism, and excavating former slave trading areas has probably not been too high on the priority list because of this.

 

Additionally, the area is in a flood plain which makes development hard to attract, as there are additional expenses needed for infrastructure. This has further lessened the chances of an archaeological dig. 

 

Thinking about all that, why would we risk erasing our history? Once it's gone, there's no coming back. Aside from whether the stadium should be built on sacred ground

 

Your comments are ridiculous!  The opportunity to excavate the area has always been there and anything you say to indicate otherwise is just an excuse!  Besides, building the stadium near that area will only offer the opportunity for the area to be excavated.  Not only that, the project (especially the Lumpkin Jail/slavery museum) allows for us to accentuate our history, not erase it!  Where are you coming up with these preposterous points of view?  Who is feeding you this crap?  Also, if you want to be technical, every bit of ground in the City of Richmond should be consider "sacred" (by your definition) because many people have died or suffered on virtually every square inch of the land there!  Do we just stop and avoid building anything?  Why is this particular land any different?  Because slaves were sold there!?  Don't be ridiculous!  I'm all for highlighting the history of what really happened there!  Erecting a museum to memorialize those who suffered/died there is the absolute right thing to do!  Here is the chance for it to actually happen.  The stadium plan makes an effort to bring all of this to fruition, but mark my words - nothing will be memorialized there if there isn't a catalyst (like this stadium plan) to push it along no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.  If this development does not happen in Shockoe, the Lumpkin Jail area will continue to be what it is today for many, many more years to come!  Is that what you want?  Sounds like it.

[Wahoo 07]

Your comments are ridiculous!  The opportunity to excavate the area has always been there and anything you say to indicate otherwise is just an excuse!  Besides, building the stadium near that area will only offer the opportunity for the area to be excavated.  Not only that, the project (especially the Lumpkin Jail/slavery museum) allows for us to accentuate our history, not erase it!  Where are you coming up with these preposterous points of view?  Who is feeding you this crap?  Also, if you want to be technical, every bit of ground in the City of Richmond should be consider "sacred" (by your definition) because many people have died or suffered on virtually every square inch of the land there!  Do we just stop and avoid building anything?  Why is this particular land any different?  Because slaves were sold there!?  Don't be ridiculous!  I'm all for highlighting the history of what really happened there!  Erecting a museum to memorialize those who suffered/died there is the absolute right thing to do!  Here is the chance for it to actually happen.  The stadium plan makes an effort to bring all of this to fruition, but mark my words - nothing will be memorialized there if there isn't a catalyst (like this stadium plan) to push it along no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.  If this development does not happen in Shockoe, the Lumpkin Jail area will continue to be what it is today for many, many more years to come!  Is that what you want?  Sounds like it.

 

I agree.  The history of the Slave Museum idea illustrates that it probably will not happen absent a comprehensive development plan (see Doug Wilder's bankrupted attempt).  I am totally in favor of excavating the site and putting the artifacts recovered in a world class museum situated on the Lumpkin's Slave Jail site.  Richmond's greatest asset is its history -- it is one thing that cannot be fabricated or bought no matter how much economic development and prosperity occur (see Houston, Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, Phoenix, Denver, etc. -- modern cities where virtually nothing of historical consequence ever happened).  While I am not sold that the stadium is the highest and best use of that space, I do believe that a vibrant, cosmopolitan, urbane Shockoe Bottom is in every Richmonder's best interest.  If the stadium plan is the best path towards that vision of Shockoe, then I hope it comes to fruition.

 

The general population's interest in history is declining; look at Colonial Williamsburg's attendance drop if you want a regional example (or the lack of national interest in the Civil War Sesquicentennial).  History attracts tourism but it very few sites do it on their own.  Richmond needs a world class Slavery Museum to act in concert with American Civil War Center (they should merge into a larger museum of the American South) so that more of our history is preserved, but we need a modern city too.  Fighting over parking lots that no longer bear the physical vestiges of the past (or "view sheds" that have nothing to do with the City's naming) hinders this effort.  As an example, the site of Julius Caesar's assassination in Rome is a restaurant.  Does it take away from the gravity of the site that the City of Rome built over it -- no.  Life and cities goes on.  We must remember and honor the past, but perhaps the ultimate tribute to those who suffered in bondage is a city that is racially integrated, works together, and has healed old wounds to the point that the scars, like the lack of the physical remains of the slave trade, have faded -- never again to reappear.

 

My whole life, Richmond has been a great idea poorly executed and it kills me to see a city that should be so much more wallow in underachieving limbo.  A project like this is chance to do something truly trans-formative.  I hope it is not miscarried by politics, misinformation, self-interest, sales pitches, untrammeled emotion, and people who are generally angry with any attempt to advance.

[wrldcoupe4]

Hey Tarzan, can you shed some light on one of your comments for me? I've heard many times the argument made that baseball is incompatible with the slave heritage sites nearby. How does this compare to the nearby nightclubs and bars that promote drunkenness and ultimately foster violence in our community? Is there any call for these establishments to be closed because the drinking and partying is incompatible with the pain and suffering endured nearby? Shouldn't the outdoor festivals at the Farmer's Market be curtailed as well?

[Shakman]

Tarzan - Do you live within the vicinity of the proposed stadium?  Will it be visible?

[Benjamin.RVA]

Hey guys! Been a lurker since I was 12 years old...I won't tell you how long ago that was because I don't want to age some of you Just get really excited about development in Richmond...today's story about Stone Brewing got me poking around. 

I'm trying to understand the ballpark proposal and where my thinking may be wrong. Can y'all entertain some questions, here? Not a real estate, urban planning, or taxation guru, so these are honest and humble questions. 

 

This is the most recent private proposal I'm referring to: http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/developers-renew-push-for-boulevard-stadium/article_bb8b7789-f929-54f2-91a2-07137cb19cf4.html
 

The mayor's argument seems to be that a stadium paid for by private interests will lose the city money when compared to a stadium paid for by taxpayers. I have a hard time processing that. 

 

The argument - as I understand it - is that the stadium leaves Boulevard undeveloped, and a tax-collector's black hole, which I get. But there is now someone who wants to come and develop it and put apartments, condos, retail and restaurants there....all this across the street from Scott's Addition, which is adding apartments...and then you've got Whole Foods coming to Broad St along with the rest of the Saur's project. And obviously the Redskins built their facility there, and Hardywood's expanding...the whole neighborhood is already coming back. So we're talking about taking this public property, making it private, and thus a part of the tax base. Doesn't that solve the problem of the "black hole" on the Boulevard, AND give us a stadium, without the city having to put up millions for a new stadium in the Bottom?

 

And I don't give two hoots about the "history" in the Bottom. Apparently leaving them as barren gravel lots and having the debauchery that occurs nightly in the Bottom isn't a sacrilege to the important history of the area....so.....don't care.

 

But I can't begin to imagine the traffic cluster on 95 at rush hour/game time. This is probably my main objection, in addition to the private vs. public financing. Where will everyone park? How are the exchanges of exit 74 going to handle all that traffic, in addition to the already-packed rush hour? How are the narrow streets in the bottom going to accommodate everyone?

 

If the Shockoe stadium makes so much sense, then why is noone offering to privately finance it? Why - when one stadium would be successful enough to create profit in the private sector - would a supposedly MUCH better option in the Bottom not also attract private investment?

 

Can someone help me understand the counterarguments that are assuredly out there?

 

Look forward to being more engaged here, as I just moved back to Richmond, recently. 

[Downtowner]

Welcome Benjamin RVA while I can't really give you answers to your questions I am sure someone else here can help you out. But like you I signed up for Urbanplanet.org back during my sophmore year of high school. I am now 25 and working a full time job but I am glad to see someone else who has lurked for a while kinda like how I did have passion for the city like I do. RVA has truly gone from ruins during the 90;s to a very lively city making a great come back. I remember going downtown with my father in the 90s and just looking at how awful thr city had gotten. Then by the time Riverside on the James was proposed that is when I really started getting ecstatic about the city. But welcome aboard and hope you stick around with us here.

[Steve_]

Hi Benjamin - great questions! I've been a supporter of the proposal mostly because I love the bottom and recognize its importance to making Richmond a truly great city. The Boulevard area is important too, and as you say there has been alot happening up there recently that should be supported, but the Bottom is in many ways the true heart of the city and its a real shame how its been allowed to rot for so long. Actually thats not really true either - the Bottom has been exploding with renovations and activity, its just the centerpiece properties there that remain parking lots and holds it back. The main issue as I see it is the flood plain problem - natural growth cant occur there because its within the 100-year flood plain - requiring at least some level of coordination with the city. I dont really care if its a baseball stadium, but there should be some large public use / entertainment venue that engineers a solution to the flood plain issue that then allows the redevelopment around it to occur.

 

I thought opening the creek and having a cool little park lined with shops that connects a renovated Farmers Market to the train shed was a cool idea but seemed unrealistic (eg no financing) - if theres a way to actually make that happen Id support it! I liked "the mayors plan" because it seemed to hit alot of things at the same time - new Farmers Market, entertainment destination, condos, grocery store, etc.., much of it was paid for by  he new revenue opened up by opportunities on the Boulevard. Maybe (hopefully) theres a way to combine these two new proposals into something that addresses both sites in a way that actually provides a return on investment for the city in terms of tax revenue.

 

I wouldnt be so quick to disregard the history of the area - I agree with you that it shouldnt be used as a reason to leave the whole thing as a parking lot (a stupid use for "sacred ground") but should be a reason to highlight development there. Not many cities in this country have a district that holds those opportunities and Richmond should emphasize it's "world heritage site" potential - completely different than arguing about some development in a field in short pump. As for traffic, I still dont understand the problem. This is one of the most accessible points in the city - it handles alot more traffic during rush hour than it would at game time (games dont start till 7 so would not overlap), and of course parking decks were part of the plan. I think the mayors plan is now dead for all intents and purposes and hope the conversation can now change to other ways to enhance the bottom (whether or not it has any connection to what happens on Boulevard), and its accessibility should be a feature of the site, not a drawback

[wrldcoupe4]

http://www.styleweekly.com/richmond/one-more-catch/Content?oid=2124122

 

Could a new Children's Hospital be in the cards for the Boulevard component of the Ballpark deal?

[eandslee]

I like the idea. There are a lot of naysayers who are opposing such an idea though. Just goes to show that no matter what you do, there will be opponents. Let's just move forward, please.

[Tarzan6179]

On 7/14/2014 at 11:02 PM, Tarzan6179 said:

I think we will see the Shockoe proposal gradually fade away.

And 4 years later I am back and my prediction came true. That plan was DOA.

Now I am scared of what Levar Stoney will be planning for his big mayoral capital project. I've been hearing rumors that something is brewing for a while now, but I think it will probably not be announced until after he wins reelection in 2020. First 4 years he gains your trust, the next 4 he  pays favors. And then the next 4 - he is a U.S. Senator. His capital project will most likely be another big pitch to gentrify Shockoe at the taxpayer's expense.  Stoney is an opportunist and works with the same cabal as Dwight Jones. They don't care about us or our history.

We must demand an excavation. We must protect Shockoe.

Save your city.

[cbl1]

It didn't fade away it died quickly.

Have you seen that all discussion on the new ballpark for several years now moved to the boulevard and the city, squirrels, and VCU are working on all the details.   They are waiting on relocation of the ABC warehouse there (which is also being worked on).   

Stoney's big project is the new coliseum and entertainment district on Broad Street.    Not sure what any "rumors" you would be hearing about Shockoe.

I think you have been a little behind on the news in those 4 years.    In Shockoe the focus has been on the train station and adjacent farmers market that is being re-done now (kind of gateway to Richmond).   Then all the improvements between there and Rockets Landing.  Not to mention all the Pulse Line work.  Other then that I don't forsee any other public Shockoe projects (lots of hotels keep coming up though).

 

[jbjust]

7 hours ago, Tarzan6179 said:

And 4 years later I am back and my prediction came true. That plan was DOA.

Now I am scared of what Levar Stoney will be planning for his big mayoral capital project. I've been hearing rumors that something is brewing for a while now, but I think it will probably not be announced until after he wins reelection in 2020. First 4 years he gains your trust, the next 4 he  pays favors. And then the next 4 - he is a U.S. Senator. His capital project will most likely be another big pitch to gentrify Shockoe at the taxpayer's expense.  Stoney is an opportunist and works with the same cabal as Dwight Jones. They don't care about us or our history.

We must demand an excavation. We must protect Shockoe.

Save your city.

Did you just wake up from a 4-year coma?

[cbl1]

at least he is well now

[Icetera]

On 7/15/2014 at 10:56 AM, eandslee said:

mark my words - nothing will be memorialized there if there isn't a catalyst (like this stadium plan) to push it along no matter how much you want to believe otherwise.  If this development does not happen in Shockoe, the Lumpkin Jail area will continue to be what it is today for many, many more years to come!

Marked!

[Brent114]

I agree with eandslee.  That ship has sailed. 

A new museum in 2018 isn’t sustainable.  A new museum that will require 100’s of millions of dollars in infrastructure improvements just to ensure that its collection isn’t underwater every ten years is unthinkable. 

 

The stadium development wasn’t about baseball, it was about flood control.  The conditions haven’t changed.  Don’t expect big private investment in the area until the public part is done. 

[eandslee]

1 hour ago, Icetera said:

Marked!

What!?  I said that 4 years ago?  Wow, there is a smart and wise bone in me every once in a while.   Sorry it was true though.  I knew that it would come to this.  So instead of having something nice (a stadium and a museum), we now just have nothing!  All sides lost because of a few people who were against this project.  Just terrible. 

[Tarzan6179]

52 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

The stadium development wasn’t about baseball, it was about flood control.  The conditions haven’t changed.  Don’t expect big private investment in the area until the public part is done.  

The two go hand in hand

 

7 hours ago, cbl1 said:

Stoney's big project is the new coliseum and entertainment district on Broad Street.    Not sure what any "rumors" you would be hearing about Shockoe. 

I think you have been a little behind on the news in those 4 years.    In Shockoe the focus has been on the train station and adjacent farmers market that is being re-done now (kind of gateway to Richmond).   Then all the improvements between there and Rockets Landing.  Not to mention all the Pulse Line work.  Other then that I don't forsee any other public Shockoe projects (lots of hotels keep coming up though). 

 

Most agree the Coliseum needs to be replaced. You are thinking too short-term. These things take years of planning behind the scenes.

 

2 minutes ago, eandslee said:

All sides lost because of a few people who were against this project.  Just terrible. 

If you think it was "a few people", you are badly mistaken.

[Shakman]

I say mowed down the Bottom then build a 100,000 seat practice facility for the Philadelphia Eagles.