Manchester Development

[Wahoo 07]

15 hours ago, whw53 said:

Yea property was on the market - Legend had a chance to buy it. Sorry - not sorry.

"Everything down - everything downtown will be gone" - Hilarious

Seriously.  I find people complaining about what gets built next to them beyond annoying.  If you want to control what happens to the land around yours, buy it yourself.  Otherwise, you assumed the risk that something not to your liking will be built.  Hopefully the NIMBY crowd takes this sentiment to heart.  

 

N.B.  I realize the "buy it yourself" assertion is a bit snarky as it may be financially impossible for many landowners.  However, by buying in a more expensive (i.e. desirable) area, you are trading control for location.

[Brent114]

I was like the little boy with his proverbial finger in the  dyke on FB yesterday. 

The RVA Dine group posted a dramatical letter submitted by Legends.  They were asking people to send their memories of the deck experience to city council.  

In the first sentence they  shared  that the developer was from New York.  It has an “other” theme that I found offensive.  A real “Carpet baggers are coming for Manchester”  tone.   I tried to call it out and had many posters claiming that I was pro gentrification and nonsense like that.    As we all know, you can’t gentrify a weed-choked lot and that the best way to provide housing is to actually build some.   The pro “view”  crowd had no idea of the amount of people moving into the city and region.  I reminded them that the Costar and Lego people have to live somewhere and that if you build high density in Manchester (neighborhood population of 10k or something) then that spares all of the true working class neighborhoods further south, at least for a decade or so. 

 
“People will lose the view in favor of rich people that will move into the new developments” was a common theme,  to which I coined the phrase “you can’t see for free” hopefully reminding them that the public can’t just hang out on the deck, you actually have to order something.  And of course the flood wall is free. 

[whw53]

25 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

I was like the little boy with his proverbial finger in the  dyke on FB yesterday. 

The RVA Dine group posted a dramatical letter submitted by Legends.  They were asking people to send their memories of the deck experience to city council.  

In the first sentence they  shared  that the developer was from New York.  It has an “other” theme that I found offensive.  A real “Carpet baggers are coming for Manchester”  tone.   I tried to call it out and had many posters claiming that I was pro gentrification and nonsense like that.    As we all know, you can’t gentrify a weed-choked lot and that the best way to provide housing is to actually build some.   The pro “view”  crowd had no idea of the amount of people moving into the city and region.  I reminded them that the Costar and Lego people have to live somewhere and that if you build high density in Manchester (neighborhood population of 10k or something) then that spares all of the true working class neighborhoods further south, at least for a decade or so. 

 
“People will lose the view in favor of rich people that will move into the new developments” was a common theme,  to which I coined the phrase “you can’t see for free” hopefully reminding them that the public can’t just hang out on the deck, you actually have to order something.  And of course the flood wall is free. 

Doing the Lord's work @Brent114 Preach. 

RVA Dine Facebook playing victim politics  - u cant make this stuff up. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by whw53

[I miss RVA]

37 minutes ago, Brent114 said:

I was like the little boy with his proverbial finger in the  dyke on FB yesterday. 

The RVA Dine group posted a dramatical letter submitted by Legends.  They were asking people to send their memories of the deck experience to city council.  

In the first sentence they  shared  that the developer was from New York.  It has an “other” theme that I found offensive.  A real “Carpet baggers are coming for Manchester”  tone.   I tried to call it out and had many posters claiming that I was pro gentrification and nonsense like that.    As we all know, you can’t gentrify a weed-choked lot and that the best way to provide housing is to actually build some.   The pro “view”  crowd had no idea of the amount of people moving into the city and region.  I reminded them that the Costar and Lego people have to live somewhere and that if you build high density in Manchester (neighborhood population of 10k or something) then that spares all of the true working class neighborhoods further south, at least for a decade or so. 

 
“People will lose the view in favor of rich people that will move into the new developments” was a common theme,  to which I coined the phrase “you can’t see for free” hopefully reminding them that the public can’t just hang out on the deck, you actually have to order something.  And of course the flood wall is free. 

Well done, sir!! We have to keep up the fight. These folks' whole premise is BS. As you said - how do you gentrify a pile of dirt and a plot of weeds? As for these folks and their "other" and "carpetbagger" theme - they can put that where the sun don't shine. I'm not at all surprised that the pro-"view" crowd are TOTALLY and COMPLTELY CLUELESS about how fast Richmond is growing, how many people are moving into the city and metro.

I guess we have to expand the NIMBY mantra now to include "but the views..."

Legends needs to do the smart thing and partner with these developers. 

[wrldcoupe4]

Can you really ascribe gentrification to a craft brewery losing their view? That’s preposterous. Legend isn’t being displaced. 

[I miss RVA]

3 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

Can you really ascribe gentrification to a craft brewery losing their view? That’s preposterous. Legend isn’t being displaced. 

Spot on, Coupe!  It's a completely fallacious argument and holds absolutely NO water whatsoever. Total BS.

Legends -- if they were SMART -- would "self-displace" and work out a deal with Avery Hall to relocate at least the taproom/dining area to a prominent river-facing portion of the new development. They could stand to make an absolute MINT no matter how you slice it. Being closer to the riverfront they'd have even BETTER - FULLY unobstructed views, built-in additional potential patrons, they could use the new complex location as a HUGE marketing tool (something akin to "Richmond is movin' on up - and Legends is movin' on up with it! Come to our taproom's NEW location RIGHT ON THE MANCHESTER RIVERFRONT..."

And if they actually integrated the entire brewery into the complex (expensive, yes) I would imagine they could make that investment back MANY TIMES OVER by putting their current location up for sale. Manchester is the hottest and fastest-growing section of the city. Lower Manchester is the hottest part of (overall) Manchester. And that stretch of riverfront/near riverfront is looking like it will be the hottest part of Lower Manchester. Developers would be lining up for several country miles to purchase that block and redev it into something spectacular.

How the HELL are these people (this David Gott person, in particular) SO DAMN BLIND?

[wrldcoupe4]

I don't think they need to move to be honest. The view will change... that's okay. People like to spend time outdoors. If the product (beer, food, service) is good, it doesn't matter whether you can see all of the tall buildings half a mile away. All the other successful breweries prove that. Moving would be super expensive for them and there are some ABC rule logistics that may make shifting the tasting room away from the production challenging and moving altogether is the most expensive (even with selling the land). So i get not moving into a new project. However, acceptance that the neighborhood is changing regardless and finding the opportunity in that is a better approach than trying to stop that progress. 

[I miss RVA]

45 minutes ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

... acceptance that the neighborhood is changing regardless and finding the opportunity in that is a better approach than trying to stop that progress. 

Fully agreed, Coupe. Unfortunately, I get the feeling these folks are hellbent on NOT accepting that the neighborhood is changing and they're willfully blind to all the possiblities for opportunity in said change.

In otherwords, they're acting like quite typical RVA NIMBYs. (or BANANAs for that matter) - who want to stop any/all change, come hell or high water, no matter what, for no other reason than "just because". (The "excuse" line -- and we can fill in the blank of  any number of them from "architectural integrity" to "historic significance" to "charm" to "uniqueness" and now we can add "losing the view" -- is nothing more than an ancillary transactional component of their opposition (a ridiculous attempt to provide a "leg" on which to stand their opposition) - in otherwords, it's complete, total and utter BS.)

Edited July 29, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Hike]

I hope the new project in Manchester is as big as possible and makes everyone there and here satisfied with the result of whatever it turns out to be. I drove there today for first time in quite a long time and can say, Manchester looks amazing from all angles, up close and far away. I know we want it to be as tall as possible but have to say, whatever happens, tall, medium, low, Manchester doesn’t hinge on this project, it’s already something. 

[Flood Zone]

Proviso: I like development, the taller the better, I'm not a NIMBY, and this isn't my backyard. Went with the family to Legend the other night, not the first time for sure but it's been a long time, and: (1) yeah everything below the deck is still just weeds and junk, (2) beyond the weeds and junk, hoo boy is that a nice view, and (3) given the parcel below appears quite wide, maybe there's a way to preserve the view from the left portion of the deck?

[Downtowner]

I’m wondering if there is a way to reposition the towers on the property to make both parties as happy as possible. I know that sounds like a long shot but at least give it a shot.

[ancientcarpenter]

1 hour ago, Downtowner said:

I’m wondering if there is a way to reposition the towers on the property to make both parties as happy as possible. I know that sounds like a long shot but at least give it a shot.

Probably not.

 

I'm not really understanding Legend's argument here. Is it purely from an emotional, heart-string point of view or do they actually have legal standing?

I was in VA beach recently and there were A LOT of houses that at one time had clear views to the beach, ocean, and sunrise... and even sunset. But, over time, 3-5 story developments (houses mostly) came in and blocked those views. What can you do about something like that? Claim it's in your way? What held you back from buying that land and keeping the view for yourself? 

Legend's argument just seems silly to me: "We were here first and I like my view" does not justify stifling major development projects. If Legend really cared, they should have bought the land when it was for sale. If Legend really cared, they can hire a developer and build an even taller tower with the brewery on the roof with 360 views of RVA. 

This just seems silly to me. And Legends as a company is doing fine... this won't hurt their bottom line (beer distribution sales) besides maybe the restaurant sales. It's great view but that doesn't mean others can't have it either if they own land around you. Just seems silly. Maybe Legends will finally have to make good food and good beer to attract patrons (booya! sorry, I had to boys!)

Edited August 2, 2022 by ancientcarpenter

[Hike]

I used to work very close to Legend and at the time really wished their food was better because I would have eaten there more, but it wasn’t and so I didn’t. It was probably good there weren’t many food options in Manchester at the time because that saved me money, just brought lunch many days. I’m not sure their food is better, haven’t eaten there in a long time, when we did go, it was for the view, beer and being outside.  I haven’t been since I left the job years ago and have also stopped drinking their beer, used to really like their brown ale, but with so many breweries now, I’m in to other beers and ones I like more. Hard to ask this question, but here goes. Does Legend rely on their view and that’s the main draw and they are worried people will stop coming? If the food and beer are great, would an altered view matter?  Also, I wonder how many true days the outdoors actually is used, is it more than half a year?  Since I haven’t been in so long, is the food better now?

Edited August 2, 2022 by Hike

[123fakestreet]

50 minutes ago, ancientcarpenter said:

Probably not.

 

I'm not really understanding Legend's argument here. Is it purely from an emotional, heart-string point of view or do they actually have legal standing?

 

Isn't this the basis for most BANANA-ism? Waah, I want what I want who cares what is legal, right, fair, or decent.

[Downtowner]

Well either way one day he will have to accept the fact to either adapt to current times with his business and improve the quality of food and beer because rather he likes it or not someone will develop that land and I think this may be it. Just my two cents: you can only fight for so long. Man I would hate to be little ole goochland knowing it’s about to boom along 250. It’s like everything at some point you have to face the fact where you live that things are not going to always stay the same.

[Jawless]

Going to the Legend website now brings up a campaign to stop the building. I think Legend knows the only thing they really offer is their view. You can drink a lot better beer at Basic City or Benchtop and there are better food options in Manchester now. 

[Brent114]

The food is most likely worse. 
The  kitchen is too small to handle the deck traffic on nice days (expect to wait 45 minutes for you food with  dirty glasses on the table.  By 2:00 or 3:00 they’re using plastic cups because the glass ones are dirty. 
 

The view is absolutely the only thing driving people to this spot.  I’ve lived in Manchester for over a year now and have only been to Legend’s once (I went dozens of times in the  90’s and aughts, started going there when you just stood at the back door and tried samples).  Went for lunch when Cafe Zata was closed. Food was OK, but not good enough to pass for dinner food. I’m not sure the bathrooms are even ADA approved.  They aren’t a bad neighbor but their loosing  the view would be good for the neighborhood because they’d  have to try harder to make the dinning experience enjoyable.  We have the flood wall for the view, we need good, reliable food. 

[Flood Zone]

2 hours ago, ancientcarpenter said:

I'm not really understanding Legend's argument here. Is it purely from an emotional, heart-string point of view or do they actually have legal standing?

It's 100% sentiment, not argument. But that sort of thing has worked before -- not just in RVA, if you can believe -- it because if you complain enough, other people might complain too, and collective complaining is too loud to ignore sometimes.

 

1 hour ago, Brent114 said:

he view is absolutely the only thing driving people to this spot.

It's 100% the view. It isn't the food, it's not even the beer, and it's definitely not the service (i.e., the speed; our server was perfectly fine). But the view is so good, and has been enjoyed by so many people, that it's informally sort of a quasi-Richmond treasure. Maybe less so as Scott's Addition has added some more places you could realistically bring your kids, but Legend's view is an old reliable.

[I miss RVA]

8 hours ago, ancientcarpenter said:

Probably not.

 

I'm not really understanding Legend's argument here. Is it purely from an emotional, heart-string point of view or do they actually have legal standing?

I was in VA beach recently and there were A LOT of houses that at one time had clear views to the beach, ocean, and sunrise... and even sunset. But, over time, 3-5 story developments (houses mostly) came in and blocked those views. What can you do about something like that? Claim it's in your way? What held you back from buying that land and keeping the view for yourself? 

Legend's argument just seems silly to me: "We were here first and I like my view" does not justify stifling major development projects. If Legend really cared, they should have bought the land when it was for sale. If Legend really cared, they can hire a developer and build an even taller tower with the brewery on the roof with 360 views of RVA. 

This just seems silly to me. And Legends as a company is doing fine... this won't hurt their bottom line (beer distribution sales) besides maybe the restaurant sales. It's great view but that doesn't mean others can't have it either if they own land around you. Just seems silly. Maybe Legends will finally have to make good food and good beer to attract patrons (booya! sorry, I had to boys!)

Well said, my friend. 100% spot on. Legend has NO legal standing to claim the view as inviolable. Where were they when Port RVA II was proposed, announced, approved, and all but under construction? As you said, where were they when the land went up for sale? They don't have the right to kibosh development in the city because it inconveniences them.  Their whole premise is complete, 100%, total, utter die kuchscheisse!

The land is zoned for 13 stories - and Avery Hall has EVERY RIGHT to develop the land to 13 stories - and with an SUP, to get their 17 story tower. And again, it's not the HEIGHT that matters -- it's the bulk of the buildings and positions. @Downtownerto your point, Avery Hall probably COULD position the buildings to potentially decrease the impact on the view of legacy businesses/residences inland - but no matter HOW they position them, SOMEONE is going to be inconvenienced, such as folks in the new condos closer to the Manchester Bridge.  And this is why Legends appears to be going all-out to stop the development altogether. It's not about whether the buildings is 13 or 17 stories tall - it's about them being built PERIOD. Which again, strikes me as totally BS because where was the pushback when Port RVA II was in the pipeline? That I'm aware of, we didn't hear one peep out of these clowns.

Guys - we need to organize and fight back in support of this project. It's all well and good to sit on the sidelines with our popcorn and do nothing - but damnit, we need to make our position known, make our voices heard, push back, and push back HARD against this RAMPANT, POINTLESS, NIMBYism/BANANAism. It's bull$h!+ what they are arguing. We need to counter that - AND make our opinions known to the planning/pemit office and City Council as well as in the public square. The voices with the most weight will come from those of you who live IN Manchester, followed by those who live in the city/metro - and finally all of us, even those (like yours truly here) who live out of town. We need to rally, organize and fight. Frankly, I'm tired of this crap happening over and over and over in Richmond and personally, I can't stand by and watch it happen without pushing back.

Let's do this, guys.

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Icetera]

2 hours ago, Jawless said:

Going to the Legend website now brings up a campaign to stop the building. I think Legend knows the only thing they really offer is their view. You can drink a lot better beer at Basic City or Benchtop and there are better food options in Manchester now. 

Then that is the end of my support for Legend's.  I already have a hard time getting people there due to the mediocre food and service.

[I miss RVA]

21 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Then that is the end of my support for Legend's.  I already have a hard time getting people there due to the mediocre food and service.

What really irks me is that -- to date -- there have been NO OFFICIAL RENDERINGS from Avery Hall or their architects. We don't yet know HOW these buildings will be aligned. The 17-story tower might be slightly "thinner" along the narrow profile, and the L-shaped 13-story tower might not be as "wide" ("long?") along the NW to SE axis (6th street axis)...  Yes, the view will be obstructed, but it MIGHT NOT be completely OBLITERATED.

This campaign is totally bogus. We need to push back against this, both with the city and in the public square.

[123fakestreet]

49 minutes ago, Icetera said:

Then that is the end of my support for Legend's.  I already have a hard time getting people there due to the mediocre food and service.

This kinda makes me wish the new development would fill in that gap. 

[I miss RVA]

All of this makes me wonder: WHY didn't they start squawking about losing their view when River's Edge II was proposed? Admittedly the towers were placed differently - but they were 11 stories tall each. (PROOF POSITIVE that there's NO ISSUE WITH a 13-story and a 17-story height - it's all about bulk, location and positioning) ... so why yell and scream now and not then?

Edited August 2, 2022 by I miss RVA

[Icetera]

7 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

All of this makes me wonder: WHY didn't they start squawking about losing their view when Port RVA II was proposed? Admittedly the towers were placed differently - but they were 11 stories tall each. (PROOF POSITIVE that there's NO ISSUE WITH a 13-story and a 17-story height - it's all about bulk, location and positioning) ... so why yell and scream now and not then?

I believe you mean River's Edge II.  I imagine it is because they can now say "New York" developer.

[I miss RVA]

40 minutes ago, Icetera said:

I believe you mean River's Edge II.  I imagine it is because they can now say "New York" developer.

WHOOPS!! Yes - River's Edge II, 

To your point: I wouldn't be at all surprised if that's a BIG part of it. Wow - what utter mamzerim (Legend's, not the developers)... 

Edited August 2, 2022 by I miss RVA