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Republican National Convention in Charlotte


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^ Given that none of the revenue is likely to materialize anywhere, its starting to look like this worked out as well as it possibly could have for Charlotte. We got a bunch of publicity (pre Cov

Think I can speak for Charlotte when I say  

"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson to William Hamilton, April 22, 1800 I live by this

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1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

 The previous comment from @Crucial_Infra was suggesting that the only reason the hostility exists today is a response to just Trump and that when Trump is gone this hostility will go away.  That's pretty naive I feel.  

I'd be glad to revisit this in 2022 which will be when the city pitches go out for the 2024 conventions. To my knowledge this has never been an issue before and polarization has been quite bad for many years. (Note: I do remember people being opposed to the GOP Convention being held in NYC in 2004 being that it seemed to take advantage of 9/11. Even then, it was mostly fringe partisans and plenty of other cities wanted it).

Never have we seen so many cities just flat out drop out of the running for this type of an event. And the reason is that DJT is a pariah and a troublemaker and a cancer and the most divisive national politician the country has seen since George Wallace. This is not a left-right issue. Polarization will continue of course but unless the GOP goes full on Trumpism in the future, this is a one-off occurrence. 

Edited by Crucial_Infra
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57 minutes ago, kermit said:

Geee whizz, I am so sorry that I interpreted this:

to not mean: " What I am saying is the political divide exists because there are a-holes on both sides. "  I just don't know what I could have been thinking.

Honestly it was this well-endowed strawman that triggered this snowflake:

Your implication that the left is out of bounds for protesting kids in cages because the government is "just enforcing immigration policies" was a bit much for me -- I am not going to be "non-agressive" in the face of fascism.  But by all means, feel free to blame me for all of the current problems in the country.

4

First off, many of the images that melt snowflakes like you are from 2014 when Barry was in office.  Is Barry a fascist as well?   I'll understand if you can't do the mental gymnastics needed to excuse the actions of the previous administration but hold the current accountable.    The full picture doesn't matter to people like you.  At best, you like to make the quip.  At worst, you like the excuse to be an intolerant a-hole.   But those are issues you need to work out.   

This doesn't excuse the actions of the current administration.  Rather, it just shows that people are too stupid and too focused on validating their feelings to seek the truth.   It shouldn't happen.  Full Stop.  So while I don't think the far left is out of bounds in protesting these actions...I do take their outrage and your outrage with a grain of salt because it's manufactured, ignorant and has the depth of a puddle.

 

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1 hour ago, Crucial_Infra said:

Never have we seen so many cities just flat out drop out of the running for this type of an event. And the reason is that DJT is a pariah and a troublemaker and a cancer and the most divisive national politician the country has seen since George Wallace. This is not a left-right issue. Polarization will continue of course but unless the GOP goes full on Trumpism in the future, this is a one-off occurrence. 

2

Cities dropped out of hosting the event because they didn't want the violent protests that happen in places like Portland and Seattle but would have the risk of being 10X for the convention.   What I am saying is the people who do protest are not going to go away.    The polarization is here to stay because to the fringe a-holes anything to the left or right of them is wrong...even if those people are in the middle.  

 

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4 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I wish I could agree but, sadly, I think that the vitriol against Trump is not going to go away once Trump exits stage left.    While he makes it very, very easy to hate him a lot of his policies or views are shared by many on the right.   

For example, anyone that suggests the US should enforce our immigration policies, allow for legal immigration and the use of ICE to deport illegal immigrants is going to be called a racist, nazi or whatever term is being used now.  Or anyone that supports police is somehow racist and a nazi for supporting terrorists.    

For what you think to happen actually be possible would require all the voices on the left to be rational, sensible and non-aggressive.  Since that's not a reality....the hate and vitriol that exists is here to stay I fear.  

I know that's the FOX news/ Hannity line. I hope you come to realize the fringes on each side are grossly over reported right now especially by FOX. Maybe watching PBS news, BBC or some other credible & independent source would help you. 

Oh - I don't think you, of all people, should get all offended and call someone a jerk and make hyper aggressive posts while at the same time trying to pretend you have an open mind. 

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24 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^I think what cjd is pointing out though is that it's hypocritical to be morally outraged about something only when it's politically popular to do so.  Yes no one can change the sins of the past, but to hand waive over them when they occur when ones preferred political party is in power while expressing righteous indignation over some of the same sins when the opposing political party is in power is disingenuous.  

And while I am not a Trump fan, can we please stop haphazardly referring to his administration as fascist.  It is patently false to say/imply that Trump is running anything even remotely close to a fascist regime.  If you don't believe me, I suggest you go take a walk through the National Holocaust Museum in DC.  That will give you a true sense of the horror that is fascism.

Trump may like to play the strongman, but fascist he is not.  And any reference to our current administration as fascist only belittles the horrors of the people who have suffered under truly fascist regimes.  Outside of fringe groups such as Neo-nazis and the KKK, the only thing we have in this country that wreaks of fascism is, ironically, Antifa.  Some of their tactics bear an eerie  resembleblance to tactics of the SA.

Note: I am well aware of the irony of this post since I used to repeatedly refer to  Republicans in the NCGA as "Reichpublicans."  That was haphazard as well, and I have gotten away from such references.

I hear you, what DJT is doing today is not literally what the horrors of fascist states' actions were.

...But it is indeed literally exactly what happened in those fascist states during the rise toward those horrific fascist policies.

There are also countless articles, statements, and opinion pieces from those various societies where citizens and leaders discounted the problems of their leaders because they weren't yet at the worst apex of oppression, so surely they were alarmist.

Edited by SgtCampsalot
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^^ It's utter BS that people are outraged now who would not have been outraged during the Obama admin if the same mistakes were made. Sure there are some partisans but if you cannot admit what is happening now, both internationally and domestically, is completely abnormal and not befitting our great country I don't know what to say. People see that enough and sure they might drill in  / be more picky than they would with a more honest, normal president. Completely correct response. Just as a cop looks first at the two time loser vs. the guy with no record after a bar fight.

No president is in charge of everything his administration does. In this case though I think we have some good people who're keeping in check a president, and his close allies, who DO have fascist or at least deeply prejudicial views: craphole countries have brown people. Nazis and counter protesters are both good people. Duarte is a good man. Kim Jong's people love him. Putin is to be trusted. On and on. There is an obvious belief system exposed here. Heaven help us if the responsible republican's in his admin and the "deep state" ;-) stop fighting back. I agree we should not throw around the term fascist though against a president who so carefully chooses his terminology when addressing "enemies". ;-)

Please don't consider this an attack on you since I appreciate your trying to bridge the gap. I just think us privileged white southerners are blind as bats sometimes (by accident). 

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4 minutes ago, SgtCampsalot said:

I hear you, what DJT is doing is not literally what the horrors of fascist states' actions were. But it is literally exactly what happened in those fascist states leading up to the rise of true utter fascism. There are also countless writings where people discounted their problems of the he hose leaders because they weren't yet at the worst apex of oppression.

I am not sure I agree.  There are only a handful of examples of fascism in the history of the world, most (if not all) rose to power in the 1920s and 1930s and what went on then, aside from a few parallels, is nothing like what we see today.  The thing that gave rise to fascism was a rare mix of political and economic forces wholly unlike what we have experienced in this country.  Take the worst day of the Great Recession and mix it with the most tumultuous political time today and you still would not have the powder keg that exploded into fascism.  Taking Germany for instance, they lost WWI and because of it they had a mound of debts they owed the allies that they could not pay.  As a result, a few of the allies (France and Belgium I believe) decided to occupy the industrial areas of the Rhine-Ruhr region which took a significant bite out of Germany's economic output.  These things among other factors led to the hyperinflation of the early 1920s which literally rendered the German currency worthless.  Then as they started to crawl out of those holes in the latter part of the 1920s the Great Depression hit the US which then demanded repayment on much of the war debt outstanding.  Germany was hit probably harder than any other country in the worldwide economic collapse-perhaps even harder than the US.  German unemployment  rose to approximately 33%.  All this time they had a supremely weak government in the Weimar Republic.  

Meanwhile there was a fringe party called the National Socialist party which had predicted the whole collapse (and went basically overnight from fringe group to prophet status).  They promised to fix the economy and restore Germany to her former glory.  With their country collapsing all around them, the German people turned to the Nazis out of desparation.

So conditions that led to fascism's rise in Germany:

1. Lost a World War and with it millions of soldiers.

2.  Suffered repeated humiliation on an international stage.

3.  Were downright castrated by the Treaty of Versailles 

4.  Garnered so much War debt they couldn't possibly repay it.

5.  Had a substantial portion of their country occupied by foreign soldiers and lost  a significant portion of their economic and industrial output (The Rhine-Ruhr accounted for about 10% of their GDP at the time I believe)

6.  Saw their currency collapse.  

7.  Suffered several epic economic crises, one of which ushered in 33% unemployment.  

8.  Had an extraordinarily weak government in the Weimar Republic.

Also failed to mention this earlier but there was massive civil turmoil in Germany around this time as well.  I see almost no parallel between what is happening today in the US and what happened in Germany that ushered fascism into existence there.

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^Nice post & I know words matter but I think you're too focused on the specifics vs. peoples modern intent when saying fascist.   

I hope we have enough checks in place to prevent any of the above happening to us. But it appears we need to rely on the opposition and judiciary since the president's party is willing to turn their backs on their most basic tenants in order to not get called out on twitter. Who knows what they would do in a real emergency. I mean really, I have no frickin idea.

 BTW, I think #2 on your list is about over with. ;-(  We also have to hope the irresponsible tax cuts, along with the inevitable recession we are due after so many years of growth, don't check off #4.

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You're just quoting what the next leader of the republican house said 6 or so months ago.  I can't decide if he is compromised or just evil in a secular sense. I think we should stop this though and start a trump stinks thread or something so our republican friends can ignore the issue. I've never started one, let me try.

 

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16 hours ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^I think what cjd is pointing out though is that it's hypocritical to be morally outraged about something only when it's politically popular to do so.  Yes no one can change the sins of the past, but to hand waive over them when they occur when ones preferred political party is in power while expressing righteous indignation over some of the same sins when the opposing political party is in power is disingenuous.  

And while I am not a Trump fan, can we please stop haphazardly referring to his administration as fascist.  It is patently false to say/imply that Trump is running anything even remotely close to a fascist regime.  If you don't believe me, I suggest you go take a walk through the National Holocaust Museum in DC.  That will give you a true sense of the horror that is fascism.

Trump may like to play the strongman, but fascist he is not.  And any reference to our current administration as fascist only belittles the horrors of the people who have suffered under truly fascist regimes.  Outside of fringe groups such as Neo-nazis and the KKK, the closest thing we have to fascism in this country Is, ironically, Antifa.  Some of their tactics do bear an eerie resemblance to tactics of the early SA.

Note: I am well aware of the irony of this post since I used to repeatedly refer to  Republicans in the NCGA as "Reichpublicans."  That was foolish and haphazard as well.  

I appreciate your perspective on this and it did make me pause. But, after giving it some thought, I disagree. Fascism is not a binary (on or off) thing. The Third Reich could be characterized as end-stage fascism, but there are certainly other, less extreme forms. I might characterize our current administration as Stage 2 fascism based on their actions (jailing people who have not committed crimes, declaring the press the 'enemy of the people,' voter suppression in multiple forms, etc.). If we dismiss these actions because they are 'not remotely close' to what went on in pre-war Germany then we risk allowing this starter-fascism to metastasize into a full blown destruction of democracy and human rights. We don't tell people with Stage 1 cancer that they don't have cancer for a reason -- we want them to get treatment.  I may be overreacting, but I would much rather err on the side of caution than allow full-blown fascism to emerge because millions of us decided to accept current events as 'not that bad' yet.

You are absolutely correct about your charge of hypocrisy. However, it has become clear that this sort of whataboutism has become just another method the right uses to distract the public. As long as the contemporary right is unbothered by their blatant hypocrisy it seems foolish to hamstring myself with an expectation of  logical consistency in the political context.  I know this lacks maturity, but I choose to play by their rules.

Edited by kermit
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Apologies for talking politics here but again this is not a partisan issue anymore. Trump is manifestly unfit to be president. He's dangerous to us all every minute he remains in office. There’s ample justification for removing him, and that case only grows stronger and stronger—usually every day. I don’t know what more can be said. I pray he is not the nominee when the RNC comes to town.

 

Edited by Crucial_Infra
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On 7/20/2018 at 5:59 PM, kermit said:

You invoke sins of the past an awful lot. Regardless of what may or may not have happened back in the day I cannot travel back in time to change any of it.

What I can do is get pissed off and fight the fascism I see today.  I am going to be an intolerant a-hole about kids in cages and the other sins of the present.  If you have a problem with that then I guess I'll need to take 'people like you' off my Christmas card list. 

So, in other words, you don't care about the issue as long as it's someone who agrees with you politically.   You may be too arrogant to understand this but that's exactly what you're saying.  It's pathetic.  

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On 7/20/2018 at 5:03 PM, elrodvt said:

I know that's the FOX news/ Hannity line. I hope you come to realize the fringes on each side are grossly over reported right now especially by FOX. Maybe watching PBS news, BBC or some other credible & independent source would help you.  Oh - I don't think you, of all people, should get all offended and call someone a jerk and make hyper aggressive posts while at the same time trying to pretend you have an open mind. 

1

I don't watch FOX.  I don't subscribe to cable.   I also don't like to be spoon fed my news by broadcasters regardless of lean.  Maybe that's your cup of coffee.  

You really should think of a better hand than 'what you're saying is on Fox so I can dismiss it'....but I don't expect much more from you.

 

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23 hours ago, southslider said:

I avoid labels like Fascist. I just know being anti-immigrants is simply un-American. We are THE nation of immigrants. It is our strength. A welcoming place of opportunity for all has and shall forever be what makes our nation unique in the world.

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration.    It takes 5 to 10 years to legally gain a visa to the US on average.  We have people all around the globe currently in line and waiting their turn.  

How is it un-American to fully support, want to expand and even streamline the process of legal immigration, while at the same time, not be in favor of illegal immigration?   Why should someone from Latin America get preferential treatment than someone from Asia or Africa?  

 

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