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Proposal: Downtown Convention Center


vicupstate

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Its not specifically mentioned in the RFP but this thread got me to thinking.  For the purposes, events, clients/customers that we are interested in courting, how critical is it for a sucessful downtown convention center to have an attached hotel/restaurant/banquet service?  Are there sucessful models that are detached and what kind of added infrastructure is needed to support a convention center when those services arent attached? I would think if not attached it would have to be really, really, I mean really close.  I suppose if it had a large parking structure it could be a vehicle destination for folks within a certain mile radius and food could be catered in.  I have it in my mind that we would be looking to pull in people that would be flying in and then would basically be pedistrians while here.

Edited by gvegascple
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Its not specifically mentioned in the RFP but this thread got me to thinking.  For the purposes, events, clients/customers that we are interested in courting, how critical is it for a sucessful downtown convention center to have an attached hotel/restaurant/banquet service?  Are there sucessful models that are detached and what kind of added infrastructure is needed to support a convention center when those services arent attached? I would think if not attached it would have to be really, really, I mean really close.  I suppose if it had a large parking structure it could be a vehicle destination for folks within a certain mile radius and food could be catered in.  I have it in my mind that we would be looking to pull in people that would be flying in and then would basically pedistrians while here.

You would never build a Convention Center these days that did not already have or would include new, a hotel of several hundred rooms. Jacksonville did so in the late '80's and it has been an abysmal failure. It was not only without a hotel, it is in a sea of parking lots and vacant lots.

 

A significant CC can support a good size hotel in it's own right in most cities, so it isn't out of the question that a new one would be built next to a new CC. However, that would probably not be ideal. Having a handful of hotel options within very short walking distance, is a better situation.

 

I think the River-Camperdown-Academy site that Hughes owns makes a lot of sense. It could be combined with the site of the proposed Visitor's Center. It would be across from the new Embassy Suites, pleasant walking distance from the Hampton Inn, be on the river and SRT, and would probably still have room for a new hotel rising up from the center's footprint.  The Visitor's Center could be incorporated into the center, if that is still alive. Frankly, the visitor's center is probably dead.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the funds set aside from that be use for the CC instead.      

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The arena site seems most logical, if pedestrian access to/from the CBD is addressed. A pedestrian bridge or tunnel crossing Church Street would be essential, in my opinion. That site would capitalize on easy access to/from I-385, US-29, and US-123. A convention center could also be a catalyst for redevelopment of the long-vacant Gateway to Greenville site.

 

 

As I look at the Earth's-eye view of the Arena area, it strikes me that the stretch between the Arena and the Hyatt would make for a great convention/large-scale entertainment district. That is, but for the County Courthouse. If only the courthouse could be incorporated into some kind of retro-themed convention center (I assume it has historical significance), with something complementary on the gateway site, and connectors constructed all the way from the Hyatt to the arena. I haven't been in the Courthouse building in decades, so I freely admit that I really don't know what I'm talking about--just musing.

 

On the other hand, given the likely impossible scenario I just outlined, how about this: I get more convinced as time goes on that the only way to rescue that orphaned gateway site is to reverse the way it was orphaned in the first place: the construction of Beattie Place back in the mid-70's. As far as I can tell, the only way to do that is to span Beattie with a large building, turning that portion of Beattie that separates the site from the Arena into a tunnel. Truck and auto access would then be via the arena side; tunnels or footbridges from the courthouse side. Any unused acreage (fronting EN Street) could be landscaped.

 

Assuming that the convention center studies determine that Greenville can support a relatively large building, then maybe a convention center/hotel combo spanning Beattie is an answer.

 

I understand the attraction of the Falls or West End. But I wonder if putting a convention center over there might overly tip the balance that downtown has achieved, especially given the News site development.

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I think the River-Camperdown-Academy site that Hughes owns makes a lot of sense. It could be combined with the site of the proposed Visitor's Center. It would be across from the new Embassy Suites, pleasant walking distance from the Hampton Inn, be on the river and SRT, and would probably still have room for a new hotel rising up from the center's footprint. The Visitor's Center could be incorporated into the center, if that is still alive. Frankly, the visitor's center is probably dead. I wouldn't be surprised to see the funds set aside from that be use for the CC instead.

I have concerns about vehicular accessibility to that site, unless it would be a small convention center. The distance from I-385 and US-29 could create a significant traffic burden on downtown roads during a major convention.

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I am curious to see what kind of conventions and money could actually be brought in by a new convention center and if its even worth doing in the first place.  I kind of got caught up with the architecture and presence of new buildings , picturing what they would look like, etc..  Do we really need one? Do they really bring in money? Is the convention center business growing or declining?  What do we do with the old one? I think having a convention center is not going to land us on any more top ten lists than we currently get on.  Do business travelers spend a lot of money with companies tightening budgets?  

 

Marybe there are other areas that are already working well that we should focus on, provide additional support and expand on instead. I think the new movie theater is going to bring a lot of people downtown and add to local retail and restaurants in a major way but not do much for hotel business. Our festivals like fall for greenville and euphoria, the fireworks on the fourth of July, and artisphere bring in a lot of people and good publicity for the city. Maybe we should be courting more high profile events like golf tournaments, rodeo, motocross, white water, cycling events, fishing, or basketball tournaments.  Focusing on expanding the area around the BSWC to create an entertainment district along with courting more big name events there should be considered as an alternative to a convention center.   Building a world class culinary arts center would compliment our local chefs well and could be milked to bring in tourists, students, high profile chefs, more food festivals, etc.  One thing that is a gaping hole in our city's makeup is a very minimal music scene which would really compliement our arts/food atmosphmere well, Just thinking out loud and wanted to throw that last one in( slow day at work).  

Edited by gvegascple
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Still think the best place would be the Memorial site. It has proximity to BSWA, Hyatt and most other hotels (planned and already completed).

 

The site would not allow residential like the current owners want. A new hotel and convention center on that site would be the perfect solution.

 

Mayor White already says that he wants a taller building for that site for any development. Due to the size of the lot, a convention center would insure a hotel on it would have to be many stories tall. That will allow for views of the city and the mountains to be an added factor to attracting conventions.

 

I think they could possibly connect the new convention center with a new bridge building crossing the road where the pedestrian one stands now.

 

Traffic? Well when it comes to any downtown, automobiles will be the one that gets screwed...fact of life. Ideally, most people who will use the convention center won't use cars and will just stay in nearby hotels. 

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I agree with a convention center on the northern side of downtown.  While the West End is currently the trendy area, something of this magnitude (convention center plus hotel) needs plenty of space and easy accessibility from major roads and the airport.  Having to drive through downtown's roads to get from I-385 to the West End sounds like a nightmare for bigger events.  Let's utilize some vacant or underused land near North Main/Beattie/the arena and do something great there.  It would give that side a nice boost, and we wouldn't lose the great things going on in the West End.

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Good points have been made about traffic/accessibility to West End and the fact the old Memorial Auditorium site is very unlikely to be developed as a residential development. I guess I would lean more to the Memorial site now.

 

I don't think the city is seeking development of a convention center similar to the TD Center. I think the city likely wants a large corporate meeting space attached to a vibrant hotel that is within walking distance to the downtown restaurants and amenities. Think large hotel with huge spaces for corporate meetings, weddings, and other business events. I've attended large business conventions with 1,000s of business attendees at these similar sites around the country (Washington, Chicago, New Orleans, and Vegas). A friend states that her company wants to hold a corporate event in Greenville, but none of our hotels downtown have the convention space big enough to host, and they don't want people shuttling between downtown and the TD Center. 

 

If this development goes to the Memorial site then the city could sell TD, use a new convention center/hotel public/private development for business & corporate events, and utilize the St. Francis arena ("The Well") for the gun, boat, and car shows. The Memorial site keeps visitor and convention traffic mostly out of downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. That site would also be close enough to walk to most city amenities (google maps indicates it's about a 15 minute walk from "The Well" to Falls Park). The only issue in my mind is how to make the walk from the Memorial site to Downtown a safe and enjoyable experience. 

Edited by FUgrad02
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Any of the sites have challenges that is for sure.  The Arena site has some advantages but the isolation of it has held it back for years.  The Federal courthouse won't add any connectivity to Main St. either.  

 

I think the city/county should discuss with JHM to move their new 300 room hotel from Spring St. to wherever the CC ends up.  Perhaps the Broad/Falls/Camperdown/Church St. bridge block that includes the old PO facility could work.  It could have the new JHM hotel and yet still be close to the new hotel that Trammel Crow/Centennial is building.  And the Courtyard by Marriott is close by too. It would be essentially across the street from the Wyche firm entrance to Falls Park. It would already have a ramp off of Church St. too.  I could see the CC, the hotel and an office building as part of a large mixed use project.  Perhaps the office component could be the replacement county offices from County Square.         

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Any of the sites have challenges that is for sure.  The Arena site has some advantages but the isolation of it has held it back for years.  The Federal courthouse won't add any connectivity to Main St. either.  

 

I think the city/county should discuss with JHM to move their new 300 room hotel from Spring St. to wherever the CC ends up.  Perhaps the Broad/Falls/Camperdown/Church St. bridge block that includes the old PO facility could work.  It could have the new JHM hotel and yet still be close to the new hotel that Trammel Crow/Centennial is building.  And the Courtyard by Marriott is close by too. It would be essentially across the street from the Wyche firm entrance to Falls Park. It would already have a ramp off of Church St. too.  I could see the CC, the hotel and an office building as part of a large mixed use project.  Perhaps the office component could be the replacement county offices from County Square.         

Rumor is that JHM is now targeting their AC hotel for the Greenville News Site and doing a combination Residence and some other concept on Spring St.

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Any of the sites have challenges that is for sure. The Arena site has some advantages but the isolation of it has held it back for years. The Federal courthouse won't add any connectivity to Main St. either.

I think the city/county should discuss with JHM to move their new 300 room hotel from Spring St. to wherever the CC ends up. Perhaps the Broad/Falls/Camperdown/Church St. bridge block that includes the old PO facility could work. It could have the new JHM hotel and yet still be close to the new hotel that Trammel Crow/Centennial is building. And the Courtyard by Marriott is close by too. It would be essentially across the street from the Wyche firm entrance to Falls Park. It would already have a ramp off of Church St. too. I could see the CC, the hotel and an office building as part of a large mixed use project. Perhaps the office component could be the replacement county offices from County Square.

I was thinking the same thing. There is plenty of room in that area to do all of that. With the added plus of the county being more of a partner in development plans with the city. This could be a great opportunity for them to build a new long sought after building.

Rumor is that JHM is now targeting their AC hotel for the Greenville News Site and doing a combination Residence and some other concept on Spring St.

This wouldn't surprise me. And the residence inn combo is something I've been seeing in other cities. Most recently Charlotte.

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This wouldn't surprise me. And the residence inn combo is something I've been seeing in other cities. Most recently Charlotte.

 

Yes - The model is what they would follow... one lobby with courtyard or something between the two. I think it drives down costs for staff, sqft, etc. while still giving customers two options... sometimes at different prices, styles/finishes), etc. Interesting concept.

 

That could mean JHM ends up with 4x hotels downtown.

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I like the BSW or Auditorium site as a location for a convention center too.  Good highway access and it keeps auto traffic from the Main Street or West End areas.  It also helps create multiple zones of activity for downtown. Everything doesn't have to be shoehorned into the same area.   And it would create an incentive for a high rise hotel on the Auditorium site. 

 

People worry about pedestrian access from that spot but I don't see why it is a problem.  Church Street isn't an interstate highway. It has traffic lights and pedestrian crossings.  I went to many events at the Auditorium and never had any problems crossing the street. 

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People worry about pedestrian access from that spot but I don't see why it is a problem.  Church Street isn't an interstate highway. It has traffic lights and pedestrian crossings.  I went to many events at the Auditorium and never had any problems crossing the street. 

If it wasn't an issue, it would have been developed a long time ago. Crossing Church St. intimidates a lot of people and is forbidding. Some sort of catwalk/tunnel would be a must. Church St. isn't an interstate but the speeds and volume of traffic is quite high and pretty much all day and night.

 

Another issue would be that the parking cannibalized for the new building would have to be made up elsewhere and there aren't a lot of options.  Plus the same lack of options would exist for the 'spin off' development. You can't replace/eliminate the Liberty Square building, the cemetery or the courthouse. Academy has significant traffic too, so  jumping that street that isn't a great option either.

 

The more i think about it, the worse it sounds.  

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People worry about pedestrian access from that spot but I don't see why it is a problem.  Church Street isn't an interstate highway. It has traffic lights and pedestrian crossings.  I went to many events at the Auditorium and never had any problems crossing the street. 

 

Large quantity and regular pedestrian crossing is an issue on Church Street.   At many events, an officer is stationed at the pedestrian crossing to ensure pedestrian safety.  And today, a lone pedestrian takes their life into their hands to cross against 2 lanes of turning traffic, and that's assuming that they can walk fast enough to avoid and watch for the sleepy, careless, or out of town driver who doesn't know that the crossing requires double care to watch for pedestrians.

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If it wasn't an issue, it would have been developed a long time ago. Crossing Church St. intimidates a lot of people and is forbidding. Some sort of catwalk/tunnel would be a must. Church St. isn't an interstate but the speeds and volume of traffic is quite high and pretty much all day and night.

 

Another issue would be that the parking cannibalized for the new building would have to be made up elsewhere and there aren't a lot of options.  Plus the same lack of options would exist for the 'spin off' development. You can't replace/eliminate the Liberty Square building, the cemetery or the courthouse. Academy has significant traffic too, so  jumping that street that isn't a great option either.

 

I agree that parking could be an issue.  The Church St garage often fills just for The Well events, so the other nearby garages would need to fill in for some of the extra parking.  

 

Other than parking, I like the old auditorium site.  A  pedestrian bridge spanning Church St would solve the connectivity to downtown.

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If it wasn't an issue, it would have been developed a long time ago. Crossing Church St. intimidates a lot of people and is forbidding. Some sort of catwalk/tunnel would be a must. Church St. isn't an interstate but the speeds and volume of traffic is quite high and pretty much all day and night.

 

Another issue would be that the parking cannibalized for the new building would have to be made up elsewhere and there aren't a lot of options.  Plus the same lack of options would exist for the 'spin off' development. You can't replace/eliminate the Liberty Square building, the cemetery or the courthouse. Academy has significant traffic too, so  jumping that street that isn't a great option either.

 

The more i think about it, the worse it sounds.  

 

Many of the Pedestrian issues can be solved by having a larger crosswalk and wider sidewalks across Church St to the courthouse. Using the Road [] buffer area (trees, bushes, etc [] sidewalk model would be best to make the sidewalks along Church and E.North feel safe for pedestrians.

 

As for parking, thats easy. BSWA has a big surface parking lot behind it, so just build a parking garage on part or all of that lot. 

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To make the Arena site work, I think you would have to have the Hughes office property and the entire Gateway site as well at the small office building on Church St. and the law office at Academy and Church included.  The hotel would go at Gateway, the Hughes property could perhaps become an addition to the existing garage.  The CC itself would go on the other two lots and the surface parking lot.

 

I don't think any amount of sidewalk widening will compensate for the traffic volume and speed. I think a catwalk or tunnel will be mandatory but would also look very awkward.       

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To make the Arena site work, I think you would have to have the Hughes office property and the entire Gateway site as well at the small office building on Church St. and the law office at Academy and Church included.  The hotel would go at Gateway, the Hughes property could perhaps become an addition to the existing garage.  The CC itself would go on the other two lots and the surface parking lot.

 

I don't think any amount of sidewalk widening will compensate for the traffic volume and speed. I think a catwalk or tunnel will be mandatory but would also look very awkward.       

 

Pedestrian bridges or tunnels should be discouraged downtown in this area due to lack of pedestrian traffic at night. It could become a breeding area of crime. Not to mention the city doesn't want visitors to the site to be welcomed to the CC by a cement underground wall. They are not the way to go. 

 

The bridge is a hinderance for ADA compliance, not to mention it separates people from the street. 

 

In either case, its not smart to separate pedestrian and auto traffic in an urban environment. All it will do is speed the auto traffic even more and promote the bypassing of automobiles from downtown.

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