Proposal: Downtown Convention Center

[GvilleSC]

I'm hopeful that the Embassy Suites expansion idea disappears. I think they can do better, and there should absolutely not be a sky bridge connecting across River Street.  

I think their shift in thinking from a standalone facility is a good one for local government finances, but I'm curious about what will come of of the proposed museum components of the original proposal. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by GvilleSC

[vicupstate]

 

I don't understand the article. A hotel has been included in the plans for years now, if not from the very beginning of this idea. Specifically an expansion of the Embassy Suites.

[GvilleSC]

Just now, vicupstate said:

 

I don't understand the article. A hotel has been included in the plans for years now, if not from the very beginning of this idea. Specifically an expansion of the Embassy Suites.

The only new revelation is really the proposed operation of the conference center. Embassy Suites' expansion, up until this point, was publicly known to be in support of the conference center. 

[vicupstate]

Just now, GvilleSC said:

The only new revelation is really the proposed operation of the conference center. Embassy Suites' expansion, up until this point, was publicly known to be in support of the conference center. 

The way the article reads, at least to me is that having a hotel is a new revelation.

[distortedlogic]

46 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

The way the article reads, at least to me is that having a hotel is a new revelation.

I see that too but I wonder if it is alluding to much earlier talks. I think they first started talking about a downtown conference/convention center back in the late 90s and maybe those early ideas were centered around a standalone. This particular vision seems to have always included a hotel component.

On another note, the state and county money has been allocated for years now but I'll bet bet 25MM 5 years ago is equivalent to only like 15-18MM today; in terms of construction power. How long is that money allocated for and can it be increased? Every year we go without building the project the less that money is worth.

[GVLover]

https://www.wral.com/story/387m-in-funding-approved-to-expand-raleigh-convention-center-move-red-hat-amphitheater/21011100/

Raleigh can move forward with a nearly $475m convention center expansion and conference hotel project with little hoopla from the public, and yet Greenville can't seem to build a $100m conference center with city, county, and state funds. If you ask me, Greenville is better positioned to attract large conventions than Downtown Raleigh, and we need to prioritize upgrading this conference center into a full scale convention center. 

[distortedlogic]

24 minutes ago, GVLover said:

https://www.wral.com/story/387m-in-funding-approved-to-expand-raleigh-convention-center-move-red-hat-amphitheater/21011100/

Raleigh can move forward with a nearly $475m convention center expansion and conference hotel project with little hoopla from the public, and yet Greenville can't seem to build a $100m conference center with city, county, and state funds. If you ask me, Greenville is better positioned to attract large conventions than Downtown Raleigh, and we need to prioritize upgrading this conference center into a full scale convention center. 

To be fair, a good bit of that is going to moving an ampitheater and building a sports complex, but I get your point. 

Given inflation over the past few years there is no way Greenville  is going to be able to do what they wanted with the money they were planning on. They will have to get significant additional funds and perhaps that is part if the hold up? 

 

[gman430]

I believe we will hear more about this in 2024 as that’s when the city is supposed to start issuing money ($100 million total over four years) from the hospitality tax towards it. That’s also when the bond for Falls Park matures freeing up more bond financing for this project. You can read more about it where it says FY24-FY28 starting halfway down the page here:

 https://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/10304?fileID=5777

 

Even with inflation and high interest rates, I would think they would be able to still get this project built due to the donated land that’s worth $25 million alone along with all of the money the county and state ($26 million a piece) have given so far. I highly doubt the city is going to let all of that free money go to waste. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by gman430

[motonenterprises]

17 hours ago, GVLover said:

https://www.wral.com/story/387m-in-funding-approved-to-expand-raleigh-convention-center-move-red-hat-amphitheater/21011100/

Raleigh can move forward with a nearly $475m convention center expansion and conference hotel project with little hoopla from the public, and yet Greenville can't seem to build a $100m conference center with city, county, and state funds. If you ask me, Greenville is better positioned to attract large conventions than Downtown Raleigh, and we need to prioritize upgrading this conference center into a full scale convention center. 

Raleigh is much larger than Greenville. Compare Greenville to similar sized places.

[GvilleSC]

As stated numerous times before, this is a VERY complicated project with a lot of stakeholders to wrangle together.

A lot of the complaining and comparisons on here are based on some obscure idea that things just happen slower in Greenville. That is not true. Simply seeing construction in other places still ignores the fact that it took time (years) and delays for those projects to reach that point. This project in Raleigh took time to conduct studies, time for ideas to be floated, time to lobby the governing bodies for their support, time for plans to be drawn, etc. Let us not forget the reality of the situation simply because we want to see construction. 

[GVLover]

17 hours ago, distortedlogic said:

To be fair, a good bit of that is going to moving an ampitheater and building a sports complex, but I get your point. 

Given inflation over the past few years there is no way Greenville  is going to be able to do what they wanted with the money they were planning on. They will have to get significant additional funds and perhaps that is part if the hold up? 

 

Additional funds will absolutely required, I wouldn't surprised if it's nearing 150-200m at this point excluding the Embassy Suites expansion and that's with conference center configuration as opposed to a full-scale convention center that is needed. This may be a silly question, but what enables NC to be able to take on bold projects with much more ease than SC? Highways, airports, convention centers, and so on are constantly being built and expanded there with relative ease and yet to get anything done here is a miracle. 

[gman430]

Don’t forget that Covid, inflation, and high interest rates have all happened since this project was first announced. Those have no doubt thrown a wrench into things moving forward in a timely manner. 

[Exile]

18 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

As stated numerous times before, this is a VERY complicated project with a lot of stakeholders to wrangle together.

A lot of the complaining and comparisons on here are based on some obscure idea that things just happen slower in Greenville. That is not true. Simply seeing construction in other places still ignores the fact that it took time (years) and delays for those projects to reach that point. This project in Raleigh took time to conduct studies, time for ideas to be floated, time to lobby the governing bodies for their support, time for plans to be drawn, etc. Let us not forget the reality of the situation simply because we want to see construction. 

Yes. And it's not at all unlikely that there are people in smaller nearby cities who are envying the way Greenville gets things done---Camperdown, One, numerous apt. buildings, etc.--that they want but can't get done.

[motonenterprises]

6 hours ago, Exile said:

Yes. And it's not at all unlikely that there are people in smaller nearby cities who are envying the way Greenville gets things done---Camperdown, One, numerous apt. buildings, etc.--that they want but can't get done.

And peer cities. Which a handful of these folks in here never compare Greenville to. It's always the much larger Charlotte. It just isn't smart to compare cities that don't match in size.

[gman430]

On 8/22/2023 at 3:55 PM, GVLover said:

Additional funds will absolutely required, I wouldn't surprised if it's nearing 150-200m at this point excluding the Embassy Suites expansion and that's with conference center configuration as opposed to a full-scale convention center that is needed. This may be a silly question, but what enables NC to be able to take on bold projects with much more ease than SC? Highways, airports, convention centers, and so on are constantly being built and expanded there with relative ease and yet to get anything done here is a miracle. 

Because the City of Greenville has too much damn red tape to go through now a days for anything to get built. Everything from master plans to zoning regulations to neighborhood meetings to city meetings to DRB to PC to BZA to sign regulations to height regulations to setback/step-back regulations to landscape regulations…it’s becoming too much. @ausrutherfordAnd since when is the DRB in control of looking at landscaping projects? Their sole job is architecture of buildings NOT landscaping. 
 

And what is the point of this crap when there are already neighborhood meetings and DRB/PC/BZA meetings: https://greenvillejournal.com/community/city-of-greenville-announces-monthly-project-preview-meetings/

Edited August 24, 2023 by gman430

[NewlyUpstate]

11 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Because the City of Greenville has too much damn red tape to go through now a days for anything to get built. Everything from master plans to zoning regulations to neighborhood meetings to city meetings to DRB to PC to BZA to sign regulations to height regulations to setback/step-back regulations to landscape regulations…it’s becoming too much. @ausrutherfordAnd since when is the DRB in control of looking at landscaping projects? Their sole job is architecture of buildings NOT landscaping. 
 

And what is the point of this crap when there are already neighborhood meetings and DRB/PC/BZA meetings: https://greenvillejournal.com/community/city-of-greenville-announces-monthly-project-preview-meetings/

The monthly project preview meeting satisfies the requirement for a public meeting for projects requiring one., so should actually simplify the process.  The requirements for all those things you list in the first paragraph are much more transparent now with the new development code, there should be no reason why a competent developer would not be able to read and satisfy the requirements outlined.

Edited August 24, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[gman430]

3 minutes ago, NewlyUpstate said:

The monthly project preview meeting satisfies the requirement for a public meeting for projects requiring one.  The requirements for all those things you list in the first paragraph are much more transparent now with the new development code, there should be no reason why a competent developer would not be able to read and satisfy the requirements outlined.

But why does there need to be a neighborhood public meeting or whatever you want to call it when these same developers have to go through the DRB, PC, BZA, or City Council anyways? Aren’t those also public meetings? Just seems like an excuse to satisfy the NIMBY’s and let them complain more than anything else. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by gman430

[NewlyUpstate]

26 minutes ago, gman430 said:

But why does there need to be a neighborhood public meeting or whatever you want to call it when these same developers have to go through the DRB, PC, BZA, or City Council anyways? Aren’t those also public meetings? Just seems like an excuse to satisfy the NIMBY’s and let them complain more than anything else. 

Those aren't true community meetings, just meetings where the public can attend and comment if they want.  They are way too formal for the kind of back and forth discussion that needs to be able to happen at an actual one.

There's plenty of resources on the importance of public/community meetings in city planning alongside tips on how to make them more effective.  Solid community meetings are a foundation of a successfully developing city.

https://www.planning.org/planning/2019/mar/6tipspublicmeetings/

https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/8/27/who-is-the-public-at-public-meetings

https://tcf.org/content/commentary/better-community-meeting-possible/

I think one of the reasons for centralizing and consolidating the meetings at Unity Park is because a ton of the community is there on a daily basis.  Projects are more likely to get a good cross section of the general public instead of the angry voices that want to show up at a random strip mall office or church on a weekday night to air their grievances 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[vicupstate]

Gman430, what you are calling 'red tape' is pretty much universal in any city of more than a couple thousand people. 

[gman]

Stalled downtown Greenville conference center plans may happen with smaller price tag

 

https://www.postandcourier.com/greenville/news/stalled-downtown-greenville-conference-center-plans-may-happen-with-smaller-price-tag/article_ee639502-40fe-11ee-a0e1-fb1bd42cba44.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

[distortedlogic]

1 hour ago, gman said:

Stalled downtown Greenville conference center plans may happen with smaller price tag

 

https://www.postandcourier.com/greenville/news/stalled-downtown-greenville-conference-center-plans-may-happen-with-smaller-price-tag/article_ee639502-40fe-11ee-a0e1-fb1bd42cba44.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

The headline is a bit misleading IMO. It would be a smaller price tag but only because of how it is funded, but it sounds like they are looking at an overall larger project; a larger ballroom, an attached hotel, and the museums in a separate building. It could result in an overall better project as well. But I am a bit confused... I  thought a hotel was part of the concept all along... the Embassy suites? 

 

At any rate, it seems that anything happening with this is likely years away.

Edited August 28, 2023 by distortedlogic

[vicupstate]

I thought a hotel (or an expansion of the existing Embassy Suites Hotel) was always a part of this.  It is interesting that the county may end up buying the existing Convention Center. Kind of surprising that they have an interest in it particularly since they have effectively replaced a vast majority of their existing office needs.  

[GvilleSC]

I'm not sure about their phrasing of the hotel component. MAYBE the nuance hinges on the previous proposal had a hotel (Embassy Suites or otherwise) adjacent to the development. It would support the conference center development, but be somewhat unrelated. If the hotel component now HOSTS the ball room, then I see the hotel as being a part of the conference center development (an integral component versus a supporting one). Happy to hear that they're very much still working through details.

[gman430]

https://gsabusiness.com/news/government/83957/

[gman430]

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/10495?fileID=65713