Jump to content

New County Courthouse


westsider28

Recommended Posts

I saw that article as well, and it left me with several thoughts.  

A combined city-county government complex - a "Government Center" or "Government Square" concept is not an unreasonable thought, and worth investigating.  But it begs several questions:  

What are the possible elements of a Government Center?  

-A Judicial Center (that is, the courthouse), with facilities for circuit court, family court, magistrate's court, probate court, the Clerk of Court, Solicitor, and probably other things like probation services.)  

-A County Administrative building (County Council and County Administrative functions, Codes, Planning, etc) as well as Treasurer, Auditor, Coroner... 

-A City Hall for the City of Spartanburg - with all city departments under one roof (there are 3 or 4 places where city employees hang their hats, not counting fire stations.)  

-A place for the remaining agencies that are state agencies but the county is responsible for housing - Elections (which is in the North Church building), DSS, Clemson Extension, and whatever else is at the old Sky City on Whitney Road.  

-Anything else?  Probably a parking garage would be necessary to serve all of these entities.  

A single building with all of that in it would be huge.  And also probably unwieldy and labyrinthine. If we were to put it all together, I'd be more interested in a complex of buildings, where one is clearly City Hall, one is clearly the Judicial Center, and one is clearly the administrative building.  Perhaps there's a shared small auditorium/large meeting room for council meetings, legislative delegation meetings, etc that all would have access to.  Another advantage is the different levels of security required of different buildings.  When I went to the courthouse a few years ago to file my notary commission with the clerk of court, they would not let me into the building with my briefcase.  I can see that level of security around the judicial center, but not to go to the planning office.  

Some further questions - do the city police and county sheriff's office also move to this facility?  

As to location - I agree with Westsider that the current City Hall space is not ideal for such a facility- in fact, that to me is the best option for mixed-use redevelopment, with its proximity to Morgan Square, its frontage on Church for office and retail, and perhaps the Spring Street side for residential that would connect Morgan Square to Hampton Heights.  

The advantage of the current Courthouse site is that you could build modules on site in phases - you've got to build a new judicial center before you can tear down the current one, and then you could build a new city hall or administration building, or both, on Magnolia Street.  Or perhaps you have to jump across Daniel Morgan to the west to get enough real estate to get everything in one area.  

I don't see the courthouse site as being as primed for mixed-use redevelopment - and also, so many of the lawyers are already there, that moving the courthouse a few blocks south would possibly start a migration of the lawyers nearer to the new place, and I don't really think there's a lot of space for new lawyer offices around City Hall.  

OK, this got kind of long...   If not one of those two sites, where would this behemoth go?  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites


I don't think a single building would be that unwieldy. There are plenty of local governments our there that are much larger than Spartanburg that have single buildings. That said, I would personally rather see several small/medium sized buildings too.

IMO, logistically it makes more sense to me for police/fire to be in their own building. Aside from having a more visible presence to the public, they have a unique set of needs that normal government workers don't (namely cars, communications technology, etc). Other government employees are just like any other professional office workers from that standpoint.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Preliminary report is in: total cost for a city-county complex would be about $217 million.  That is a lot of money.  A final report will be given to County Council May 22.  Here's the preliminary cost breakdown:

$116 million for a new 309,057-square-foot judicial center in 2020

$10.8 million for a 600-space judicial center parking garage

$3.6 million for a new 12,000-square-foot emergency operations center

$52 million for a 188,165-square-foot joint city-county government center in 2022

$10.8 million for another 600-space parking garage

$15.5 million for a new municipal court-police building in 2023

And this, ladies & gentlemen, is the result of deferred maintenance/building.  You get hit with this massive, multi-facility need all at once.  I have to say, I wasn't expecting it to be quite this expensive.  However, there are more facilities included in this study than I thought.  I'm not exactly sure why 2 parking decks of that size are needed when the combined number of spaces between the current courthouse, city hall, and county admin buildings is probably equal to about 1 of those planned decks.  Interesting that the courthouse would be built first, and that it would potentially be in a different location than the city-county complex.  A lot to think about here...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow that is a lot of money. It is interesting that the Admin building is $52mm.  Greenville is trying to get a new admin building (and a 1,000 space garage) as a trade for the 30+ acres at County Square. At similar pricing it would seem that would be insufficient money as the Gville building will be 250k SF.  The County Square land would have to be 'worth' over $2mm an acre.  

Edit: They are factoring in a good bit of inflation considering some of these buildings won't be build for several years. Given where interest rates are NOW, they probably should bond the sales tax revenue, and build everything ASAP in today's dollars.   The admin building is $276 a SF, which seems really high to me. Undoubtedly 7 years of inflation is a reason why. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funding method has yet to be decided.  Sales tax increase is one option that has been mentioned several times (primarily by David Britt).  But yes, any funding method would need to be approved by voters in a referendum.  But we're still in the early stages of this whole process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It would most likely be sales tax increase to fund bonds to pay for it.

The only way it wouldn't go before voters in a referendum is if they are able to fund it within the existing tax revenue. However, given that Spartanburg County never seems to have enough money I'm guessing that a temporary tax increase is the only plausible way to do it.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, roads-scholar said:

Just curious, does anyone know how the 1959 courthouse and 1961 city hall were financed?

I don't have specific knowledge of that, but it would almost certainly would have been a property tax increase or they were just paid by General Obligation Bonds, paid for under the existing millage at that time.  It could not have been with a sales tax, because that was not an option in those days.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The way our county works I am sure the specified period of time would be indefinite for the sales tax increase. You never see those things go away. I love that the folks of district 7 (some of the more conservative around) will now have to endure 2 tax increases in about 3 years because the city/county/school district have no idea how to manage money.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Sparkleman said:

The way our county works I am sure the specified period of time would be indefinite for the sales tax increase. You never see those things go away. I love that the folks of district 7 (some of the more conservative around) will now have to endure 2 tax increases in about 3 years because the city/county/school district have no idea how to manage money.

By law, the sales tax expires when the list of projects have been paid for by the revenue received OR a maximum of 7 years, whichever occurs first. It is possible for a NEW referendum to extend the tax for ANOTHER 7 years, but there would have to be a new list of projects attached to that referendum.      

Florence County has approved such a sales tax twice, and York County at least three times. Each time the YES vote increased, because residents saw what there money actually paid for.    

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Selling the taxpayers on a "temporary" sales tax increase in very conservative Spartanburg County is going to be tough.  It is difficult for school districts in the county to sell a millage increase for new school even when the need is obvious.  A government building, to a lot of taxpayers, is a boondoggle. 

I'll vote in favor only because our present facilities, especially city hall, are a disgrace.  I hope other taxpayers will look at it that way.  And, if done right, these buildings should last for decades.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/12/2017 at 4:27 PM, roads-scholar said:

Just curious, does anyone know how the 1959 courthouse and 1961 city hall were financed?

While I don't know the answer specifically, I can say that prior to 1972 or 1973 (when Home Rule was adopted), all local government ran through the state. Cities and counties didn't really serve a purpose other than for organizational needs (effectively). Counties received special funding allotments each year, and any local government facilities like the courthouse would have likely been funded by state.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

County Council discussed the building plan at their meeting today.  The report addresses building space needs for the next 75 years.  Most members support the project and realize that it's overdue and won't get any cheaper in the future.  A joint city-county meeting will be held (at some point, they didn't say when) to discuss the final cost.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

The joint city-county meeting is tomorrow (Tuesday, May 9) at 5:30 PM at the SCC downtown campus (Evans Building) auditorium.  It is open to the public.  Justice Planning Associates will present information and budget estimates at the meeting.

This H-J article says the courthouse would likely be 7-stories, behind the existing courthouse.  Since courthouse floor-heights are quite tall, that could be ~120 feet tall.  And at 309K sq ft, it would be the largest building in downtown by a large margin (no others are above 200K sq ft).  This would certainly be a massive structure.  Architecture and placement on the site are key, IMO.  City Hall site is still favored for the city/county admin building.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The City has 30 days to decide whether they want to be a part of a city/county admin building.  The rapid timeline is so everything can be finalized in time to be on the November ballot. (if the City doesn't participate, I presume the County would need to rethink size/cost/location for an admin building).  This will likely be discussed at the May 22 City Council meeting, if you want to attend and express your opinion on the matter.  Several City Council members are publicly in favor of a joint facility.  The County will put the Courthouse on the ballot, regardless of whether or not the City is involved with the admin building.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, vicupstate said:

If the city joins in, where would the City Hall offices located during the demolition/construction phase of the joint building? 

I would also like to see some more things in writing.  I am betting, though, that the new city-county building on the current city hall site would be built somewhere else on that block... in the parking lot, perhaps even on Broad Street, but that's just a guess.  The City has control of that entire block bounded by Church, Spring, Broad, and Kennedy except for 3 parcels - the main one being the Nautilus Fitness Center, but also the corner lot where A Arrangement Florist was located.  The third one is a small parcel on Kennedy Street that is vacant.  

So if they wanted to eminent domain those parcels on Church Street, they could have it front there and face the library...  but even if not, there's a lot of land on that block. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Spartan (and everyone), I e-mail Roger Nutt about the availability of the report, and he directed me here: http://www.spartanburgcounty.org/169/Administration

There you can see all the reports at each stage of the process.  Here's a direct link to the Final Report Executive Summary (PDF).  I haven't read through it all yet.  But these documents should contain most of the details and such that we would want to know about.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the site locations being discussed, there's this excerpt from the end of the document:

Quote

 

Siting It is recommended that the new Judicial Center be located on the same site as the existing Judicial Center. This site has been a traditional location for courthouses in Spartanburg. The 1892 Courthouse faced Magnolia Street, as does the current 1958 facility. In addition, the Federal Courthouse across the street fronts Magnolia. There will be some cost premium to constructing a new facility near an operating courthouse, but those additional costs have been factored into the budget estimate.

It is not recommended that the new Consolidated Government Center be located on the same site as the Judicial Center. It is believed that the volume of vehicular and pedestrian traffic would overwhelm the area. It is also believed to be prudent to reserve a portion of the site, either on the same block or on an adjacent block, for other judicial-related uses, such as a Municipal Court/Police facility or a future Centralized Magistrate Court.

The Consultant was asked to consider a site on Church Street adjacent to the existing City Hall as a potential location for a new Consolidated Government Center. It is believed that the location across from the Public Library would be suitable. The collocation of the Library, existing City Hall, and new Government Center would serve to create a civic district. The number of staff and visitors accessing these facilities would also help support the downtown business district. However, there may be other potential sites to consider as the project moves forward.

 

 

So in short, the Courthouse stuff would stay on the same block where it exists today. The City/County government center would not be on the same site as City Hall, but it could potentially be near the Library on Church St.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.