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SunRail [Phase 1 Completed]

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Lunican,  I don't know what information you have, but Orlando is not negotiating with CSX, the state/feds are, and ALL indications point towards buying out of the rights of the CSX tracks for passenger service, with limited frieght operations.  CSX has other opportunities to move south through the peninsula (like the linke through Ocala to Lakeland).  The only thing rediculous are your posts. ---  See railroad map:Rail Map Here

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This is a perfect example of taking a simplistic view of the situation. Yes there is an alternate route south through the state for them to operate on, but what about the customers they serve along this route? Not to mention Taft Yard, the CSX intermodal terminal, a UPS terminal, and a CSX Transflow terminal that are all served by this route with no alternative.

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But if Lunican's right, Crotty's role is insignificant, seeing as how CSX is going to squash the whole deal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice diversion Dale! I love running in circles with you!

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Nice diversion Dale!  I love running in circles with you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We were already running in circles, weren't we ?

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This is a perfect example of taking a simplistic view of the situation. Yes there is an alternate route south through the state for them to operate on, but what about the customers they serve along this route? Not to mention Taft Yard, the CSX intermodal terminal, a UPS terminal, and a CSX Transflow terminal that are all served by this route with no alternative.

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Do you work for CSX ?

And what about the substance of Jaybee's post ?

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praha -

Let's you and I join hands and spearhead a trails-to-rails program. You know, get those mangy backpackers and liberal cyclists off the trails and get those manly locomotives going again ! B)

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Do you work for CSX ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey now you're on to something...

Just to aggravate everyone a little further with another angle:

Lets say tomorrow a deal is struck and the tracks are sold to whoever for commuter rail. All the freight that was previously moved by rail to local businesses will have to move by truck over the roads. So after adding thousands of trucks to the roadways, you better hope the commuter train can get some high ridership numbers and take tens of thousands of cars off the highways.

I'm all for commuter rail, we just need to think it through carefully.

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Hey now you're on to something...

Just to aggravate everyone a little further with another angle:

Lets say tomorrow a deal is struck and the tracks are sold to whoever for commuter rail. All the freight that was previously moved by rail to local businesses will have to move by truck over the roads. So after adding thousands of trucks to the roadways, you better hope the commuter train can get some high ridership numbers and take tens of thousands of cars off the highways.

I'm all for commuter rail, we just need to think it through carefully.

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Did anyone say that the deal would have CSX taken off the tracks altogether ? Did anyone suggest that the deal would make necessary thousands of trucks dumped on roadways ?

If you are somehow privy to discussions between the state and CSX, by all means, tell me how they're proceeding. Otherwise, get all threatened over this. Or are you afraid that you'll lose your job (in which case I could appreciate your passion) ?

Edited by Dale

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Volusia County seems onboard with the idea, according to this article:

Volusia needs commuter rail funds fast

By BOB KOSLOW

Staff Writer

DEBARY -- Volusia County's share to build a $473.5 million commuter rail system between here and downtown Orlando is $11.7 million.

Volusia County Chairman Frank Bruno said paying up is the "right and responsible thing."

However, should the County Council agree this summer, $1.5 million is due by December and $10.2 million is due in September 2006.

"We are a bit shocked at the quick timing," County Manager Cindy Coto said last week. "We have the $1.5 million budgeted in next year's budget and have started evaluating short term loans and other ways to raise the balance and spread the costs over several years."

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJour...AST01061305.htm

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Volusia County seems onboard with the idea, according to this article:

Volusia needs commuter rail funds fast

By BOB KOSLOW

Staff Writer

DEBARY -- Volusia County's share to build a $473.5 million commuter rail system between here and downtown Orlando is $11.7 million.

Volusia County Chairman Frank Bruno said paying up is the "right and responsible thing."

However, should the County Council agree this summer, $1.5 million is due by December and $10.2 million is due in September 2006.

"We are a bit shocked at the quick timing," County Manager Cindy Coto said last week. "We have the $1.5 million budgeted in next year's budget and have started evaluating short term loans and other ways to raise the balance and spread the costs over several years."

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJour...AST01061305.htm

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Okay, see here ? Volusia County is asking some of the same questions Crotty asked. So tell me again why Crotty's the bad guy ?

Edited by Dale

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I'm all for commuter rail, we just need to think it through carefully.

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It sounds as though you are implying the only way CSX would agree to commuter rail is if it had its own tracks?

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It sounds as though you are implying the only way CSX would agree to commuter rail is if it had its own tracks?

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It is possible that a deal has been struck, or is close to being struck, that has the state purchasing the right-of-way, and allowing CSX to use the tracks. Hence, CSX's capacity is not impaired, and, at the same time, it alleviates the liability issues which previously led CSX to balk at sharing its line with commuters.

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Okay, an Orlando Sentinel reporter has graciously emailed me and this is what he said, in so many words:

The state is optimistic that it can either purchase the tracks outright, then lease back to CSX as necessary to facilitate freight transit, or purchase right-of-way at certain times of the day.

Now, he allows that he is not privy to state/CSX discussions (and the possibility that CSX could balk). Nonetheless, the state expects to reach an agreement with CSX by late summer or early fall. With the pessimistic view being a year or more to secure a deal.

Edited by Dale

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Okay, an Orlando Sentinel reporter has graciously emailed me and this is what he said, in so many words:

The state is optimistic that it can either purchase the tracks outright, then lease back to CSX as necessary to facilitate freight transit, or purchase right-of-way at certain times of the day.

Now, he allows that he is not privy to state/CSX discussions (and the possibility that CSX could balk). Nonetheless, the state expects to reach an agreement with CSX by late summer or early fall. With the pessimistic view being a year or more to secure a deal.

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I don't think the state has any idea how these negotiations are going to proceed.

Did anyone say that the deal would have CSX taken off the tracks altogether ? Did anyone suggest that the deal would make necessary thousands of trucks dumped on roadways ?

Yes, the mayor of Winter Park is quoted as saying that he wants to see freight trains taken off the CSX tracks. The fact that no one suggested the need for more trucks without trains is a problem. No one has thought about it. OUC burns several train loads of coal a day at their Stanton Energy Plant, each train the equivalent of 200-300 trucks. What do you suggest as an alternative to shipping by rail other than truck?

article here

And no this won't have any impact on my job.

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I don't think the state has any idea how these negotiations are going to proceed.

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Well it sounds like CSX doesn't want negotiations. At least thats what I'm getting from this thread. I find it unlikely that they would be able to kill the project because its inconvenient for their own interests. Now, Orange County, thats a different story. They already killed it once.

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I don't think the state has any idea how these negotiations are going to proceed.

Yes, the mayor of Winter Park is quoted as saying that he wants to see freight trains taken off the CSX tracks. The fact that no one suggested the need for more trucks without trains is a problem. No one has thought about it. OUC burns several train loads of coal a day at their Stanton Energy Plant, each train the equivalent of 200-300 trucks. What do you suggest as an alternative to shipping by rail other than truck?

article here

And no this won't have any impact on my job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Will you be bitterly disappointed if it turns out that the state was not acting in a self-delusionary manner, that it had a good handle on the impact (to freight) of its proposal, and especially if the state and CSX strike an agreement ?

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Will you be bitterly disappointed if it turns out that the state was not acting in a self-delusionary manner, that it had a good handle on the impact (to freight) of its proposal, and especially if the state and CSX strike an agreement ?

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No not at all, in fact I will feel just the opposite (but who cares what I feel). I hope I'm proven wrong. I just thought I could add some insight to this issue, even though I know it's not what anyone here wants to hear. Consider yourselves more informed than most on the issue.

Edited by Lunican

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No not at all, in fact I will feel just the opposite (but who cares what I feel). I hope I'm proven wrong. I just thought I could add some insight to this issue, even though I know it's not what anyone here wants to hear. Consider yourselves more informed than most on the issue.

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Thanks for all your contributions. And please understand that the only thing I object to is the attribution of ignorance of self-delusion to the state. Again, it's hard for me to believe that the proposal could have made it this far (and it's pretty far down the road) without some indications from CSX that some sort of arrangement is possible.

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I don't think the state has any idea how these negotiations are going to proceed.

Yes, the mayor of Winter Park is quoted as saying that he wants to see freight trains taken off the CSX tracks. The fact that no one suggested the need for more trucks without trains is a problem. No one has thought about it. OUC burns several train loads of coal a day at their Stanton Energy Plant, each train the equivalent of 200-300 trucks. What do you suggest as an alternative to shipping by rail other than truck?

article here

And no this won't have any impact on my job.

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Doesn't CSX only move coal through town late at night. So the lease back of track time during these hours should not interfer at all with commuter operations.

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Doesn't CSX only move coal through town late at night.  So the lease back of track time during these hours should not interfer at all with commuter operations.

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They move through at any time.

Here is a little trip back in time to 1998 when the same thing played out with LYNX.

Optimistic LYNX in negotiations

Deal falls through

maybe someone learned something from that and they can try another approach this time around.

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They move through at any time.

Here is a little trip back in time to 1998 when the same thing played out with LYNX.

Optimistic LYNX in negotiations

Deal falls through

maybe someone learned something from that and they can try another approach this time around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'd like to think you're right. Surely the state went in knowing the precise sticking points, based on past dealings with CSX.

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Its not the state's first commuter rail so I'm confident they (and their lawyers) understand this process. Its funny CSX hasn't been mentioned at all in the media.

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Local commuter rail: Is it full steam ahead?

Noelle C. Haner

Senior Staff Writer

ORLANDO -- After more than two decades of discussion, commuter rail in Central Florida finally may be heading down the right track. And it may happen by 2009.

"The stars are sort of aligning," says Tawny Olore, the Florida Department of Transportation's commuter rail project manager.

In March, U.S. Rep. John Mica, R-Winter Park, secured $8.9 million in federal funding for rail stations and supporting infrastructure for the 62-mile, 15-stop system. The state also has agreed to pick up the tab for the first four years of the system's operations and for the use of CSX Transportation's A-line tracks from DeLand to Kissimmee for the line -- a commitment that could cost the state as much as $450 million.

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Put commuter rail on the right track

If you're a resident of western Volusia County, how would it feel if during your daily commute you could sip your coffee, listen to Vivaldi on your iPod, thumb through the newspaper and arrive at your Orlando office in 45 minutes?

Better yet, how would you feel if you never had to get behind the wheel of your car?

Just imagine: Your coffee would have more of a jolt than you'd get from a close encounter with those night-glow construction barrels along I-4. And when you reach your desk, your nerves would still be intact, not frayed by the madness of discourteous, careless -- and often lawless -- drivers.

Such workday trips could become a reality before too long if there is enough political will -- and long-term vision -- available to address what is arguably one of Central Florida's most perplexing problems: mass transit.

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