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Doubtful but heard directly from them today that they will have the southern leg running by the end of the year.  We need to hope it goes really well so that the public rally's for its expansion.  Right now, elected officials are only hearing from opposition 

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6 hours ago, aent said:

hasn't it been "shovel ready" for a little while now? if and when the legal and funding issues are worked out, they're supposed to be able to get right to construction

God I hope so.  we can't have that intermodal terminal sitting empty, and the Brightline operating should spurn more interest to get the Sunrail connection built, or built quicker.

 

2 hours ago, Jernigan said:

Doubtful but heard directly from them today that they will have the southern leg running by the end of the year.  We need to hope it goes really well so that the public rally's for its expansion.  Right now, elected officials are only hearing from opposition 

Have you heard any chatter about FRA compliance being an issue?

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Okay, I was just looking at the photos just posted in the Colonial overpass thread and noticed the aerial views or overhead views of the CSX crossing at Colonial.

When Sunrail first opened, the crossing at Central had not yet been improved (like Washington St.) with new  concrete panels in between the tracks and roadway which make for a smooth ride over.  They recently did the one at Central. It's great.  It looks like they just did Colonial as well; I didn't remember Colonial being smooth when driving over before.

I guess the $$$ to do them wasn't available at first?  Or does the City pay for that?

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  • 2 months later...
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The biggest issue that Sunrail has is money! The sooner funding is  coordinated, the sooner :

1. Doubt is removed from the doubters.

2. Silence the haters.

3. Expand service hours.

4. Add more lines and spurs.

5. Gain confidence from potential businesses (Amazon) and investors.

6. Fulfill the pledge of expanding to Deland.

I don't understand why the issue of funding is avoided or put off until later. Especially if it's already known that we the Greater Orlando Metro area will take ownership in the near future. 

As I see it we have 4 options of funding. We can:

1. Merge Lynx , Sunrail and the Central Florida Expressway Authority. 

2. We can tap existing tourism taxes.

3. Implement new taxes.

4. Issue Bonds.

May I suggest 2sources of funding. One for day to day operations and the other for adding new lines and spurs.  Indecisiveness can be very damaging to any plan or enterprise. 

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I'm hesitant to lump all forms of transit into one bucket and say, "We need more!"

Sticking to SunRail for a moment...which are "heavy trains" and is made for regional connectivity, 9-5ers and park and riders....is it fair to say that it has, so far, failed?  I'm not suggesting to cut the cord, but if the arguments are that our workforce's transit alternative needs to run 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, and needs to go to a myriad of destinations....is SunRail the wrong investment to make that happen?  Or is a "commuter rail" hopeless from the start?

Other arguments about leisure passengers, density around stations and live/work/play - I ask again, is SunRail the right transit for that?  When you go to NYC, Chicago or San Franisco to visit, do you move to and fro on the Long Island Railroad, the METRA or Caltrain?  Or do you use the "L,", the NYC subway and MUNI?   I don't know if any of those cities would be as desirable with loud and heavy trains moving everywhere within them...nor would they be able to maintain the frequencies that the other forms of transit run too.

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I still don't understand how it could possibly cost $250 million to make a connection to the airport.  Isn't the new station at the airport already going to include the infrastructure for Sunrail at the station itself?  The Brightline service yard will be located pretty far to the southwest, adjacent to the existing OUC spur line.  It does not appear to be very complicated.

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2 hours ago, Jernigan said:

I'm hesitant to lump all forms of transit into one bucket and say, "We need more!"

Sticking to SunRail for a moment...which are "heavy trains" and is made for regional connectivity, 9-5ers and park and riders....is it fair to say that it has, so far, failed?  I'm not suggesting to cut the cord, but if the arguments are that our workforce's transit alternative needs to run 18 hours a day, 7 days a week, and needs to go to a myriad of destinations....is SunRail the wrong investment to make that happen?  Or is a "commuter rail" hopeless from the start?

Other arguments about leisure passengers, density around stations and live/work/play - I ask again, is SunRail the right transit for that?  When you go to NYC, Chicago or San Franisco to visit, do you move to and fro on the Long Island Railroad, the METRA or Caltrain?  Or do you use the "L,", the NYC subway and MUNI?   I don't know if any of those cities would be as desirable with loud and heavy trains moving everywhere within them...nor would they be able to maintain the frequencies that the other forms of transit run too.

I think the argument for merging the alternative transportation agencies together would be that a harmonious short and long term transit plan could be developed and implemented for the region.  The problem is,  not a single leader is stepping forward with vision to propose and implement a plan. 

Any serious metro system in Orlando must include the light rail link from I-Drive / Universal to Downtown (and points north) and another eastward light rail that connects UCF and downtown, a street car network downtown (and the immediate neighborhoods surrounding it), expansion of SunRail (OIA spur, OBX). I would also throw in that Orlando's wide roads make it easier than most cities to build dedicated bus ways (like those in Mexico City, for instance), that could get people at long distances to points more quickly. 

Edited by prahaboheme
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Because SunRail was conceived primarily as a sweetener for a sweetheart deal for CSX and as a consolation prize for the light rail project that Republicans on the Orange County Commission along with Harris Rosen, John Morgan and other lack-of-vision sorts on International Drive torpedoed (sending several hundred million federal dollars to Charlotte instead), it should be no surprise it hasn't really worked. The only hope was that the I4 Ultimate project would so clog traffic that people would flock to SunRail. They might have if it went places more people needed to get to when they wanted to go.

Until our time comes around again for federal dollars, we should probably get serious about getting Lynx up to speed. Essentially, if it takes more than an hour to get to work or classes, most folks are going to get a car as soon as they can afford it.

Fortunately, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer has  noted transit is a priority, as have some of the candidates in the race for OC Mayor. The place to start is dedicated funding for Lynx. After that happens, then we can talk about rail.

I also believe consolidating CFEA and Lynx has to happen so that the bureaucracy thinks about roads and transit together. For that not to just put transit on a back burner will require legislation for a requisite amount of funding to go to transit. It will also require more of our elected officials locally, regionally and in Tallahassee and DC to change their current allegiances. 

At the moment, our job at UP is to elect more transit-friendly candidates, especially in Orange and Seminole county governments and to the FL Legislature. 

 

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4 hours ago, spenser1058 said:

Because SunRail was conceived primarily as a sweetener for a sweetheart deal for CSX and as a consolation prize for the light rail project that Republicans on the Orange County Commission along with Harris Rosen, John Morgan and other lack-of-vision sorts on International Drive torpedoed (sending several hundred million federal dollars to Charlotte instead), it should be no surprise it hasn't really worked. The only hope was that the I4 Ultimate project would so clog traffic that people would flock to SunRail. They might have if it went places more people needed to get to when they wanted to go.

Until our time comes around again for federal dollars, we should probably get serious about getting Lynx up to speed. Essentially, if it takes more than an hour to get to work or classes, most folks are going to get a car as soon as they can afford it.

Fortunately, Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer has  noted transit is a priority, as have some of the candidates in the race for OC Mayor. The place to start is dedicated funding for Lynx. After that happens, then we can talk about rail.

I also believe consolidating CFEA and Lynx has to happen so that the bureaucracy thinks about roads and transit together. For that not to just put transit on a back burner will require legislation for a requisite amount of funding to go to transit. It will also require more of our elected officials locally, regionally and in Tallahassee and DC to change their current allegiances. 

At the moment, our job at UP is to elect more transit-friendly candidates, especially in Orange and Seminole county governments and to the FL Legislature. 

 

To me, both Lynx and Sunrail seem like such a disaster, and even the operating budget of them makes no sense -- I believe I read that Sunrail loses money on JUST THE TICKET COLLECTION portion of their service. If they literally got rid of the ticket machines and ticket checkers and made it free, it would be in financially better shape.

I don't know if the Orlando Maglev thing would have succeeded, but the fact that after we had an offer for a fully privately funded, no tax dollars transit system from the airport to I-Drive, that would connect to a Sunrail station as well, and the builder even agreed to post a bond for the removal of said system if it doesn't work, and STILL got turned down so the city can consider spending $250 million or more, maybe $500 million to build it themselves (Sunrail extension to airport + light rail to I-Drive) is literally insane. Again, I had my doubts on Orlando Maglev like we all did, but for it to fail because the airport refused to allow it is ridiculous IMO. I don't want to give them more money until they can manage what they got better. If that means cutting out less used routes on the outskirts of the county, so be it. At this point, I'm fine waiting for Brightline to arrive at the airport and seeing if they want to extend their line to Tampa with stops similar to the old HSR route, and seeing what happens with SunRail South. I know part of the problem is nationwide, transit usage is down because Uber and Lyft are just so much more convienient, and not THAT much more expensive. Outside of downtown and the tourist area, it just seems like the money is better spent focusing on those areas. And the tourist areas should be able to develop a transit system that is self sustaining, or really, really close to it.

Keep in mind we also supposedly paid for the improvements on the tracks for the OBX line, and supposedly they were built, but no train stations were built and that plan is all but dead, so we wasted more "transit" money there too. And that route was supposedly much cheaper per mile to build.

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3 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Weren't the OBX improvements freight related?

My understanding is it was supposed to allow better freight traffic and permit commuter rail to operate on the line, which is why it was funded by tax dollars and not charged entirely to the freight companies if I remember right.

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Maglev was floated by a guy who has been scamming for 40 years going back to his days in Oak Hill, FL (a wide spot in the road that makes Mims look like a big city by comparison). He has yet to pull off a successful project. It was as likely to happen as a 7-star resort on I-Drive.

Brightline, btw, has received all sorts of government largesse to make this supposedly work (even though it would have been much cheaper to improve the current Amtrak route that could actually go downtown.) Why? Because the purpose has NEVER been primarily to move passengers - it's to leverage FECRR real estate holdings in South Florida. If it was such a great idea before, why did FECRR prohibit use of its tracks for the last 40 years for passenger service?

For that matter, why was Amtrak created in the first place when private companies (Pennsylvania and New York Central railroads) went bankrupt and decided not to bother with passenger rail, leaving the Northeast corridor in a colossal mess? 

Eugene Garfield made all sorts of noise about how the private sector could run AutoTrain so much better right up until the day he went bankrupt and handed it back over to Amtrak.

With the current mentality in Tallahassee, we have to pray this works. But just like with the Lexus Lanes on I4 and I95 that require all sorts of extra investment and ridiculous tolls so investors can charge up to $40 to travel 22 miles like happened last week on I66, let's not pretend that any of it is for the commonweal. It's to line the pockets of billionaires.

Edited by spenser1058
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5 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Maglev was floated by a guy who has been scamming for 40 years going back to his days in Oak Hill, FL (a wide spot in the road that makes Mims look like a big city by comparison). He has yet to pull off a successful project. It was as likely to happen as a 7-star resort on I-Drive.

Brightline, btw, has received all sorts of government largesse to make this supposedly work (even though it would have been much cheaper to improve the current Amtrak route that could actually go downtown.) Why? Because the purpose has NEVER been primarily to move passengers - it's to leverage FECRR real estate holdings in South Florida. If it was such a great idea before, why did FECRR prohibit use of its tracks for the last 40 years for passenger service?

What was the Maglev guy's scam? He was asking for no public money at all from everything I've read... and was willing to post a bond to fund the removal of his system if it didn't work. Just because someone has failed before is not a reason not to give them another shot if you make sure you're save if they fail again. Thats part of the American dream. Maybe it wouldn't have worked, but if he was gonna post a bond to cover its removal if it failed, why not let him try when its only his money (or his investors money) at risk? At worst, we just get a bunch of construction and demo jobs, maybe we end up with an elevated structure we can decide what to do with if his floating trains don't work, or perhaps they would have worked this time.

And Brightline doesn't seem to have gotten much from the government, the only thing I believe they've gotten (which is complicated, so I'm not even sure they actually did) was the tax exempt private activity bonds. Tax dollars wouldn't have to pay them back, and the government does give tax exemption to businesses all the time, that unfortunately is the basis of our tax system. I'm sure they plan to use the new routes for freight as well, but it can be a win-win situation. We know it would have cost far more if the government tried to do it without Brightline using it to subsidize freight costs and gain governmental approvals...

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9 hours ago, aent said:

And Brightline doesn't seem to have gotten much from the government, the only thing I believe they've gotten (which is complicated, so I'm not even sure they actually did) was the tax exempt private activity bonds. Tax dollars wouldn't have to pay them back, and the government does give tax exemption to businesses all the time, that unfortunately is the basis of our tax system. I'm sure they plan to use the new routes for freight as well, but it can be a win-win situation. We know it would have cost far more if the government tried to do it without Brightline using it to subsidize freight costs and gain governmental approvals...

They're getting government help.   That's about all I can say about that.

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Sunrail should consider letting ppl ride for free. That gets rid of the cost of collecting the fares, and gets  rid of maintenance head aches with those antiquated machines. In return we will probably get ridership back to between 8000-12000 a day. Sunrail need only to guide that growth and perhaps use the new savings into improving the system. In the future we can revisit implementing a fare incrementaly. 

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