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Building the line isn't necessarily the problem. ROW is. The most feasible option is along the 408 but that brings it's own engineering challenges such as elevated trains, Lake Underhill, navigating huge interchanges(such as 417), connecting to existing line downtown or another central connecting station downtown. I get what you want, and I would love to have unlimited funds to do the same, but I don't think it is feasible. 

I think it makes more sense to connect I-drive to the airport, and then try to get up to UCF from there.  Could do a switching station along the 528 around the area of Innovation Way to connect to Brightline. 

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17 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Building the line isn't necessarily the problem. ROW is. The most feasible option is along the 408 but that brings it's own engineering challenges such as elevated trains, Lake Underhill, navigating huge interchanges(such as 417), connecting to existing line downtown or another central connecting station downtown. I get what you want, and I would love to have unlimited funds to do the same, but I don't think it is feasible. 

I think it makes more sense to connect I-drive to the airport, and then try to get up to UCF from there.  Could do a switching station along the 528 around the area of Innovation Way to connect to Brightline. 

I read a few years ago there are plans to build another east-west road out to UCF.   I am not sure if it's an extension of MCCollough, but something along those lines.  It may even be an enlargement of Valencia College Lane. Does anyone recall hearing about that?  If so, there is the ROW.

I also seem to remember that rail was originally planned immediately adjacent to I-4.  I think it was part of the early Ultimate plans.  If planners could have done that, why couldn't they have done it for the 408?  Did they not envision expanding the transit system?   It's a real lack of planning. 

(As an aside...it really, really bothers me we will never have light rail.  A light rail system will never be funded that duplicates SunRail.  Shame.)

Edited by I am Reality
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Richard Crotty Parkway. 

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/TrafficTransportation/RichardCrottyParkway.aspx

Only exists from Semoran to Dean Road, north of 50.  Also aligns over existing roadways, so would not work for rail because it would take away the car traffic  connectivity.

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/Portals/0/Library/Traffic-Transportation/docs/RICHARD CROTTY NEWSLETTER 2017 FINAL Ver.pdf

 

Edited by dcluley98
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8 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Richard Crotty Parkway. 

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/TrafficTransportation/RichardCrottyParkway.aspx

Only exists from Semoran to Dean Road, north of 50.  Also aligns over existing roadways, so would not work for rail because it would take away the car traffic  connectivity.

http://www.orangecountyfl.net/Portals/0/Library/Traffic-Transportation/docs/RICHARD CROTTY NEWSLETTER 2017 FINAL Ver.pdf

 

Nice work.  That's pretty impressive.  

I kinda like the original name for the road - the East-West Road.

Why did they have to change it?

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44 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

I read a few years ago there are plans to build another east-west road out to UCF.   I am not sure if it's an extension of MCCollough, but something along those lines.  I may even be an enlargement of Valencia College Lane.Does anyone recall hearing about that?  If so, there is the ROW.

I also seem to remember that rail was originally planned immediately adjacent to I-4.  I think it was part of the early Ultimate plans.  If planners could have done that, why couldn't they have done it for the 408?  Did they not envision expanding the transit system?   It's a real lack of planning. 

(As an aside...it really, really bothers me we will never have light rail.  A light rail system will never be funded that duplicates SunRail.  Shame.)

There is a desperate need for another east-west road out to UCF, but my understanding is they could not identify a feasible ROW. My understanding is the approach now being taken it to try to connect existing roads and add a few new east-west roads parallel and close to SR50, but it won't be a continuous path. The idea is that maybe it will at least take a bunch of the local traffic off of SR50 for the shorter trips, and that people can route around traffic during bad times. The main new road will only go from Semoran to Dean. I guess McCulloch could be expanded from there all the way east, but I doubt a route like that makes sense for rail.

If the area is serious about rail, the airport-sunrail-tourist corridor is really easy, and really obvious. And we probably don't even need real tax dollars to make happen. Even if we can't find someone to cover the full cost, there's a few easy tricks to get it paid for even in the event AMT/Globalvia or others don't step forward: make Universal build it between their existing park, the new park site, with a station at I-Drive/Universal Blvd on their property their as well. It shouldn't be that hard to convince Universal to do it, offer impact fee credits or property tax credits to cover the cost, and Universal needs a transport system between their properties anyways. And if you keep it from traveling along I-Drive until you're past Universal's new south park before heading to the convention center, they should be happy with that route. Extend that south to the convention center, and see if Sea World is willing to pay to extend it to their property. From Universal's north property, connect it to Sunrail's Sand Lake station and then to the airport. Offer tax credits to Tavistock for paying for the extension from the airport to Lake Nona, and perhaps Sunbridge, and I bet they'll do it. From there, in the future, you can try to extend it along "Innovation Way" to UCF as a future phase. At that point, you surely will have some build/operator partner interested when that much of the line is funded for them already.

If Disney wants in, they can either extend from SeaWorld down I-Drive (ideal, but I'm sure Disney won't do that), or they can have it go west from Lake Nona along the new Osceola Parkway route. Then their route won't pass by Universal or I-Drive.

And even if we can't get a private party to fund it, if it is taken as a replacement for the Sunrail extension to the airport, which probably will require a transfer anyways, and is at an insane cost, thats fine by me too, this is a better option. Just don't do something stupid like streetcars, we need an elevated system.... maglev, monorail, elevated light rail, etc

Edited by aent
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Pretty much what I was thinking, Aent, but with Meadow Woods instead of Sand Lake as connector station. Existing corridor agreement for MagLev/Light Rail was along 528 from the airport to convention center. That makes sense to use. Would relocate Sand Lake Station to south and connect to the 528 ROW with a bridge over the North Side of 528. 

Also, if we get Universal and SeaWorld and Tavistock, etc. on board, it would make Disney really think hard about connecting to it eventually. Competition is a real driver for these theme park companies. 

Edited by dcluley98
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1 minute ago, dcluley98 said:

Pretty much what I was thinking, Aent, but with Meadow Woods instead of Sand Lake as connector station. Also, if we get Universal and SeaWorld and Tavistock, etc. on board, it would make Disney really think hard about connecting to it eventually. Competition is a real driver for these theme park companies. 

Don't forget, it actually worked for the high speed rail. (I'm still sour over that and hope it comes up in Scott's Senate bid...)

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38 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Pretty much what I was thinking, Aent, but with Meadow Woods instead of Sand Lake as connector station. Existing corridor agreement for MagLev/Light Rail was along 528 from the airport to convention center. That makes sense to use. Would relocate Sand Lake Station to south and connect to the 528 ROW with a bridge over the North Side of 528. 

Also, if we get Universal and SeaWorld and Tavistock, etc. on board, it would make Disney really think hard about connecting to it eventually. Competition is a real driver for these theme park companies. 

I figured Sand Lake made sense as Florida Mall wanted a stop as well.

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Yeah, that makes sense. Only problem is intermodal is south terminal so have to get around runways and existing infrastructure at the airport itself. I was thinking this route, which is a bit crazier and longer, but easier on ROW.  This went south to 417 to be planned for extension along the 417 ROW to Disney as well. Also don't know about Shingle Creek wetlands ROW and DEP issues, just throwing stuff out there. If you could get through and take Central Florida parkway over instead, that would be more of a straight shot, but seems like it would be a lot harder. 

Potential SunRail MCO.jpg

Edited by dcluley98
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12 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Yeah, that makes sense. Only problem is intermodal is south terminal so have to get around runways and existing infrastructure at the airport itself. I was thinking this route, which is a bit crazier and longer, but easier on ROW.  This went south to 417 to be planned for extension along the 417 ROW to Disney as well. Also don't know about Shingle Creek wetlands ROW and DEP issues, just throwing stuff out there. If you could get through and take Central Florida parkway over instead, that would be more of a straight shot, but seems like it would be a lot harder. 

My understanding is there is room under the existing runway bridges and that was the planned route for the maglev train, to follow the airport road up to 528, at ground level, before becoming elevated for the rest of the system.

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You definitely know more about the existing plan than I do. That would be ideal. It is much easier to go down 528 ROW and closer connection to downtown as well.  Additionally, connects to 528 east for Brightline corridor and possible extension up to UCF. 

I still thought that south route made some sense if trying to connect to Disney. It runs along an existing track, although not sure who owns rights and then some less dense areas to get to 417 ROW. 

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Doesnt the Central Flórida Highway Authority own most of the toll roads in metro Orlando? In other words 408, 417, 429, 528 & Osceola parkway are roads that rail could be built on because Metro Orlando owns the ROW.  Owning the ROW makes building easier and lowers cost. I assume that CFHA , Sunrail and perhaps Lynx would have to be merged.

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1 hour ago, aent said:

Maglev-route-map.jpg?v=1 

was the proposed route, with the north half being built as phase 1. likely to get disney on board, they needed it to be the opposite direction from the airport as i-drive/universal

Well, no offense, 

But that is one of the worst thought out and articulated maps I have ever seen. I assume it's a sidebar on a Sentinel article. 

But Seriously, can we just track this out via existing corridors to make it easier or should we overlay our ideal routes upon the existing construct and try to throw money at making it work? 

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12 hours ago, aent said:

My understanding is there is room under the existing runway bridges and that was the planned route for the maglev train, to follow the airport road up to 528, at ground level, before becoming elevated for the rest of the system.

Yes if you look at the new tunnels built for Terminal C, you'll see 3 of them.  One for the tram to the main terminal, one presumably for Brightline and one for LRT/Maglev.

 

13 hours ago, klstorey said:

Don't forget, it actually worked for the high speed rail. (I'm still sour over that and hope it comes up in Scott's Senate bid...)

Taft Vineland was the corridor of 2010 HSR.   My understanding is another rail company looked at using that alignment but opted against it because of the development that's happened since.

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So is the Intermodel at the airport is the new transportation hub for the entire region?  It is at least 10 miles out of downtown.  I've said it before...it takes me 3 toll roads to get from downtown to the airport.

To get to UCF by train, we are proposing riding 10+ miles south to the airport; transfer at the Intermodel; and ride north 10+ miles to UCF.

That will never work.

That is the problem with using the Intermodal as the regional hub.  It is on one edge of town, to the exclusion of the rest of the area.  Everyone wants more centalization and development downtown.  The Intermodal is the antithesis of centralization.

And again, we are ignoring local-resident needs. It's all about the tourists. Everytime.

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20 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

I am not saying that is ideal. I agree with you that it is not ideal. That is what we got built and paid for by the DOT. 

Good luck getting somebody to pay for what you (and we all) want. 

I agree it will take a lot of political courage to find the money. 

The Orlando transit system is being built completely piecemeal.  I have a serious question...what is the overall plan?  Do local leaders even want transit on the east side, where a large population lives?  Cities typically have transit lines running north-south and east-west.  Where ANY plans made for an east-west line?  If not, why?  

How are all of these competing plans going to work together?  We will have SunRail, Brightline, the Hyperloop (maybe) and an International Drive tram/people-mover someday.  Do all of these systems compete with each other?  They seem to duplicate routes.  Do the different systems tie in somehow to make a more complete regional system?

 As far as I understand, the SunRail leg to the airport hadn't even been approved yet.  Once it is built, every system and SunRail line will run through the Intermodel.  Was that a conscious decision or was it not planned through completely?  It is a worst-case outcome for a truly regional transportation system. 

Edited by I am Reality
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1 hour ago, Jernigan said:

Check out Lynxforward.com for the plan 

it is hard to do good long term planning without a dedicated source of funding in the region for transit!

Funding is a big issue.  That should have been addressed already.  

Transit should drive growth (not the other way around).  Once an area is already developed, it's too late.   It becomes more expensive to put transit there.  Transit should be part of comprehensive growth planning, the same way roads, schools and sewage lines are planned.  The city and county planners should have planned for growth corridors to funnel development. They should have taken transit easements.  

Ad hoc planning has never worked anywhere.  Why was UCF developed without any plans to connect it to the rest of the city?  Same for Lockheed East.  Or Waterford Lakes. Or Avalon Park. 

If the city/country planners failed to do their jobs, they lose the right to complain about costs to remediate the problem.  And they don't get to half-ass things and give us a second-rate system.

Other cities have dealt with these problems before.  It's not impossible or even particularly difficult.  Luckily, property in Orlando is much cheaper than in other cities. If city/county planners prioritize transit, it will get done.  

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2 minutes ago, I am Reality said:

Funding is a big issue.  That should have been addressed already.  

Transit should drive growth (not the other way around).  Once an area is already developed, it's too late.   It becomes more expensive to put transit there.  Transit should be part of comprehensive growth planning, the same way roads, schools and sewage lines are planned.  The city and county planners should have planned for growth corridors to funnel development. They should have taken transit easements.  

Ad hoc planning has never worked anywhere.  Why was UCF developed without any plans to connect it to the rest of the city?  Same for Lockheed East.  Or Waterford Lakes. Or Avalon Park. 

If the city/country planners failed to do their jobs, they lose the right to complain about costs to remediate the problem.  And they don't get to half-ass things and give us a second-rate system.

Other cities have dealt with these problems before.  It's not impossible or even particularly difficult.  Luckily, property in Orlando is much cheaper than in other cities. If city/county planners prioritize transit, it will get done.  

I've complained on here before, our leadership simply doesn't understand how to design for transportation  in general. Its not just mass transit in that we have terrible connectivity. Having only one real east-west road through town, without even getting ROW for another as part of the project approvals is insane, which they likely could get the land for free, thats what the governments do in other areas, we need this right of way for you to be able to add so many trips. But they repeatedly make the same mistake here. And funds in transportation are misdirected all the time. As an example, "Innovation Way" was clearly a project to nowhere from day one. Then to make up for that, they build dedicated transit lanes and a new road from the road to nowhere to the failed ICP corporate park? And then build a replacement interchange for this development to nowhere? We really don't have better funding priorities then a project designed solely to promote sprawl? And these roads are now getting old, 10+ years I believe from this failed effort.

From where we are, as far as mass transit, it just makes sense to focus on getting that area done first. The locals who work there, along with our visitors are likely to use it, and we probably can charge enough for tickets on that particular route that it actually will be revenue neutral or positive (especially after accounting for the reduced wear and tear on our other roads from the tourists). I've really been hoping our new mayors (city and county) are someone who has some experience in transportation and can actually lead us forward on that. As I've said before, the current administration has no idea what they're doing at all, its not even just a lack of funding, its a lack of management of the existing funds. May I mention again that SUNRAIL LOSES MONEY ON THE PROCESS OF SELLING TICKETS, even if the trains were free to operate. If Sunrail stopped collecting fares and made it free, it would literally be in better financial shape. Thats how terrible they are at running the system.

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5 hours ago, I am Reality said:

Transit should drive growth (not the other way around).  Once an area is already developed, it's too late.   It becomes more expensive to put transit there.  Transit should be part of comprehensive growth planning, the same way roads, schools and sewage lines are planned.  The city and county planners should have planned for growth corridors to funnel development. They should have taken transit easements.  

 

Completely agree with you on this. Central Florida leaders in the old days failed us. The entire region was built around the "car-centric" ideas of the 70's and toll roads. And they did not even do that right as we are STILL trying to piecemeal together a true beltway. The transportation system encouraged sprawl and suburban living and did not emphasize mass transit and did not encourage density. 

Now we are stuck with what we have and need to "fix" things instead of having planned them right in the first place, unfortunately. That said there are plans now, but it isn't going to make things any easier. 

Metro Orlando LRTP can be found Here: https://metroplanorlando.org/plans/long-range-transportation-plan/

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1 hour ago, dcluley98 said:

 

Completely agree with you on this. Central Florida leaders in the old days failed us. The entire region was built around the "car-centric" ideas of the 70's and toll roads. And they did not even do that right as we are STILL trying to piecemeal together a true beltway. The transportation system encouraged sprawl and suburban living and did not emphasize mass transit and did not encourage density. 

Now we are stuck with what we have and need to "fix" things instead of having planned them right in the first place, unfortunately. That said there are plans now, but it isn't going to make things any easier. 

Metro Orlando LRTP can be found Here: https://metroplanorlando.org/plans/long-range-transportation-plan/

This MetroPlan report is a treasure trove of great info.  I'm going to have to really take a closer look at it.  I glanced at it for minute.  

From the small bit I saw, it looks like the I-4 Ultimate will be extended past Longwood well into Volusia Co. (the Lake Helen/Cassadaga exit)   FDOT has even started buying ROW for that extension (actually two extensions done in different phases).

 

 

 

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