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Orlando to Tampa is supposed to be true "high speed" because it is going to be completely new and isolated from street traffic in the I-4 corridor easement. The Brightline can't do that because they are using existing tracks and have to deal with crossings and other issues on the local street level. That has hindered it from being actual high speed and is the reason why it will take 3 hours to get to Miami. 

The original feasibility studies for the Tampa-Orlando route in the early 2000s called for top speed of 168 miles an hour with minimal stops at Tampa, Lakeland, Disney area, and OIA Intermodal.  The easement of the I-4 corridor was widened specifically for this in the late 2000s construction work in preparation for the HSR phase that was to be funded by the federal government and was eventually turned down by Rick Scott. 

The studies have been done, and the corridor is in place. They are just taking bids now from private companies to build it. The companies would also need to secure funding to do so. This is a major hurdle. expected costs for the Tampa-Orlando route was over $2 Billion a decade ago. Brightline is currently trying to secure bonds for their project, and has faced opposition from the Florida legislature to get approval to use tax-exempt bonds and cannot secure the money privately. No private equity will step up to fund that amount of risk for the first phase, and with the company already leveraged to complete that project, it is highly unlikely they will get the financing for the Tampa-Orlando phase. Honestly, the best thing that can happen is for a differnt private entity to step up to try to compete with Brightline for the Tampa-Orlando phase and separate the risk from them. Somebody like Virgin or Hyperloop or another would be more feasible. If Brightline "wins" the bid, we will not see this constructed for years. 

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26 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Orlando to Tampa is supposed to be true "high speed" because it is going to be completely new and isolated from street traffic in the I-4 corridor easement. The Brightline can't do that because they are using existing tracks and have to deal with crossings and other issues on the local street level. That has hindered it from being actual high speed and is the reason why it will take 3 hours to get to Miami. 

The original feasibility studies for the Tampa-Orlando route in the early 2000s called for top speed of 168 miles an hour with minimal stops at Tampa, Lakeland, Disney area, and OIA Intermodal.  The easement of the I-4 corridor was widened specifically for this in the late 2000s construction work in preparation for the HSR phase that was to be funded by the federal government and was eventually turned down by Rick Scott. 

The studies have been done, and the corridor is in place. They are just taking bids now from private companies to build it. The companies would also need to secure funding to do so. This is a major hurdle. expected costs for the Tampa-Orlando route was over $2 Billion a decade ago. Brightline is currently trying to secure bonds for their project, and has faced opposition from the Florida legislature to get approval to use tax-exempt bonds and cannot secure the money privately. No private equity will step up to fund that amount of risk for the first phase, and with the company already leveraged to complete that project, it is highly unlikely they will get the financing for the Tampa-Orlando phase. Honestly, the best thing that can happen is for a differnt private entity to step up to try to compete with Brightline for the Tampa-Orlando phase and separate the risk from them. Somebody like Virgin or Hyperloop or another would be more feasible. If Brightline "wins" the bid, we will not see this constructed for years. 

Once Brightline is operational between Orlando and Miami, if the ridership numbers are where they say, they won't have problems financing it. If Brightline's ridership numbers are way too low, I'm not sure anybody is going to want to build the Tampa to Orlando route, at least with train as the technology. Thus far, Brightline has claimed their expectations for ridership on the first let that opened, were over 300% what was expected for West Palm Beach to Ft Lauderdale, and when Miami opened a few weeks ago, my understanding is most trains were sold out, and Brightline even added additional trains already increasing the frequency, allegedly permanently, due to the demand. Obviously Orlando is the real question on what ridership will be, they expect a lot more people to use it for longer distances and tourists to use it.

Having the Tampa to Orlando route be separately operated from Orlando to Miami would heavily reduce the usefulness, as transfers would become necessary, and it would need an extra terminal in the Orlando airport, so that'd likely mean we're losing hope of one of our other transit stations in there. While I'm sure construction won't start until at least 2021 on the Tampa leg, it seems preferably to have it be one continuous route. Of course, based on what Brightline has done so far in South Florida, there also is the possibility they try to get some pieces open faster, possibly extending to Disney as a much quicker first phase to try to get ridership numbers way up, and show a return on investment more quickly. If they can strike a deal with Disney to bring people from the airport and South Florida to their property, with Disney possibly subsidizing it (they already do this, just through Mears with buses), that segment could become very profitable very quickly.

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17 minutes ago, aent said:

Having the Tampa to Orlando route be separately operated from Orlando to Miami would heavily reduce the usefulness, as transfers would become necessary, and it would need an extra terminal in the Orlando airport, so that'd likely mean we're losing hope of one of our other transit stations in there. While I'm sure construction won't start until at least 2021 on the Tampa leg, it seems preferably to have it be one continuous route. 

I don't think the Brightline's trains are capable of full High Speed. They would have to change the system anyway.  There is additional space built into the Intermodal Terminal for 2 other rail lines. One was specifically for SunRail and the other was for light rail and/or monorail that they said they could use to connect to I-drive/convention center originally. I believe those are on the other floor. Maybe they could use one of those for potential HSR to Tampa if we aren't going to ever see a commuter/I-drive line. 

Originally, the Brightline platform was reserved for HSR trains. If Brightline is incapable of reaching high speed, then they would have to transfer anyway. I agree that it would be ideal to have Brightline be high speed and run continuously, but that just isn't possible with their current route. Financing-wise, it will take a LONG time to happen and as you said will be dependent upon them finishing the first phase (and probably paying for it). This is YEARS away. Currently All Aboard Florida can't even sell the $1 Billion in bonds for phase one. They just asked for a 7 month extension until the end of the year to try to sell those. Even if they sell the bonds, they then have to build it out, make a profit, and likely pay some of the debt down before they can try at securing financing for the Tampa Route. 

A more likely alternative is that they cave in to the Brevard County folks, give them a local station and lower speeds of the line that runs on existing trackage along the coast, and then transfer to HSR system to Orlando and Tampa. The Brevard to Orlando route will be all new trackage and also along a dedicated corridor, so they can up the speed to true HSR levels. This may be what they are planning long-term. I am pretty sure if they can make the rail lines for Orlando to Brevard route capable for future HSR and also capable for the existing trains, and then retro-fit to make it High Speed in the future if they get another transfer station in Brevard and/or upgrade the east coast corridor. 

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So my wife and I are moving downtown (South Eola). She will be working at Osceola Regional Medical Center. It looks like the Tupperware station is a little ways from the hospital. Does anyone know if they are planning bus routes, etc to facilitate hospital employees using the Sunrail? Seems like it would be a smart move since the hospital houses the UCF residency programs.

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18 minutes ago, opivys85 said:

So my wife and I are moving downtown (South Eola). She will be working at Osceola Regional Medical Center. It looks like the Tupperware station is a little ways from the hospital. Does anyone know if they are planning bus routes, etc to facilitate hospital employees using the Sunrail? Seems like it would be a smart move since the hospital houses the UCF residency programs.

I personally do not know, but I would contact Lynx.  They should have lines that connect the heavy traffic nodes such as the hospitals; and, Osceola Regional is in a major developed part of town with other medical offices adjacent or nearby. 

There would have to be a line.  But, maybe not at Tupperware; rather, downtown Kissimmee Station, b/c Oak Street is where it's at, which is very close to Kissimmee Station.

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3 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

I personally do not know, but I would contact Lynx.  They should have lines that connect the heavy traffic nodes such as the hospitals; and, Osceola Regional is in a major developed part of town with other medical offices adjacent or nearby. 

There would have to be a line.  But, maybe not at Tupperware; rather, downtown Kissimmee Station, b/c Oak Street is where it's at, which is very close to Kissimmee Station.

Its a 13 min walk from the Kissimmee station per google.  It's a 4 min bike ride (faster than the cars).

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Downtown Kissimmee for sure.   Florida Hospital is a toss up but ORMC is in DTK.

I wouldn’t call it unwalkable, but it’s definitely not something I’d be excited to do on July 30!   Bring a bike on the train, split an Uber and most importantly, ask your HR or parking guy what’s their plan to leverage the train.   Orlando Health runs golf carts from their station around their campus and Florida Hospital has provided different shuttles to their Winter Park and Altamonte or Maitland facilities.

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15 minutes ago, codypet said:

Its a 13 min walk from the Kissimmee station per google.  It's a 4 min bike ride (faster than the cars).

you know I never thought about it before; Kissimmee Station serves Osceola Regional.  So you have ORMC and FH South directly served by Sunrail.  Then, probably equidistant from a Sunrail station at about a half mile are Osceola Regional,  FH Altamonte, and South Seminole Hospital.   And, CFLA Regional in Sanford is a little more than half a mile from the Sanford Sunrail station.  FH Kissimmee is a little more than a mile from Kissimmee Station.  That's not bad. 

Oddly enough, Winter park memorial is around 1 1/2 miles from WP Sunrail Station, which is ironic...

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6 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

I don't think the Brightline's trains are capable of full High Speed. They would have to change the system anyway.  There is additional space built into the Intermodal Terminal for 2 other rail lines. One was specifically for SunRail and the other was for light rail and/or monorail that they said they could use to connect to I-drive/convention center originally. I believe those are on the other floor. Maybe they could use one of those for potential HSR to Tampa if we aren't going to ever see a commuter/I-drive line. 

Originally, the Brightline platform was reserved for HSR trains. If Brightline is incapable of reaching high speed, then they would have to transfer anyway. I agree that it would be ideal to have Brightline be high speed and run continuously, but that just isn't possible with their current route. Financing-wise, it will take a LONG time to happen and as you said will be dependent upon them finishing the first phase (and probably paying for it). This is YEARS away. Currently All Aboard Florida can't even sell the $1 Billion in bonds for phase one. They just asked for a 7 month extension until the end of the year to try to sell those. Even if they sell the bonds, they then have to build it out, make a profit, and likely pay some of the debt down before they can try at securing financing for the Tampa Route. 

A more likely alternative is that they cave in to the Brevard County folks, give them a local station and lower speeds of the line that runs on existing trackage along the coast, and then transfer to HSR system to Orlando and Tampa. The Brevard to Orlando route will be all new trackage and also along a dedicated corridor, so they can up the speed to true HSR levels. This may be what they are planning long-term. I am pretty sure if they can make the rail lines for Orlando to Brevard route capable for future HSR and also capable for the existing trains, and then retro-fit to make it High Speed in the future if they get another transfer station in Brevard and/or upgrade the east coast corridor. 

They're capable of 125mph... the definition of "full High Speed" and whatnot varies depending on who you ask, but 125mph is generally the start of it. I'd expect the Tampa to Orlando route to be running at 125mph, my understanding is that speed was selected for the new Cocoa to MCO tracks and where possible on the other track upgrades as going above that speed has much stricter FRA safety regulations. Hopefully they will design tracks for faster speeds, but above that speed, they need a different standard of cars that are more expensive, and I believe are not allowed to share the tracks with anything else.

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Also LYNX from Kissimmee station to ORMC will be about a 15 min ride.   Same as walking.   This really seems like an easy thing for the hospital to handle with existing shuttles they use to get patients to and from their parking lots 

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7 hours ago, jrs2 said:

you know I never thought about it before; Kissimmee Station serves Osceola Regional.  So you have ORMC and FH South directly served by Sunrail.  Then, probably equidistant from a Sunrail station at about a half mile are Osceola Regional,  FH Altamonte, and South Seminole Hospital.   And, CFLA Regional in Sanford is a little more than half a mile from the Sanford Sunrail station.  FH Kissimmee is a little more than a mile from Kissimmee Station.  That's not bad. 

Oddly enough, Winter park memorial is around 1 1/2 miles from WP Sunrail Station, which is ironic...

I see more free standing ER's turned into Small medical campuses coming up around the other SuNRail Stations! I said that a few months ago how many medical facilities in general are within 1 to 1/12 miles of all sunrail stations.

18 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Also LYNX from Kissimmee station to ORMC will be about a 15 min ride.   Same as walking.   This really seems like an easy thing for the hospital to handle with existing shuttles they use to get patients to and from their parking lots 

From Downtown Kissimmee to ORMC is like a 30 minute bus ride with transfers? But why not just catch the SunRail to Orlando health??

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10 hours ago, codypet said:

Its a 13 min walk from the Kissimmee station per google.  It's a 4 min bike ride (faster than the cars).

If I were walking it I would probably head down W Dakin Street to N Central. Keeps you on side streets and in the shade for the most part. It’s a pretty direct route from Kissimmee station.

Edited by prahaboheme
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2 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:



Does OBX Ever happen?

Do we get rail to go west to Clermont/Groveland?

Why is there not a rail connection from Orlando to the coast? Or Lakeland?

Does Orlando EVER see any other rail transit happen for public use?

Amtrak? How long does it take between Orlando and Lakeland?

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Amtrak is a great connection to Lakeland as it is to Tampa and is only limited by 2 things, IMO - it only runs 1-2 times a day, and it’s a small segment of a huge Miami to Maine route that can lead to delays.

I believe OBX happens next after the airport link and DeLand.   No plans for south Lake or the coast (unless you count Brightline potentially adding a stop in Brevard)

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34 minutes ago, Jernigan said:

Amtrak is a great connection to Lakeland as it is to Tampa and is only limited by 2 things, IMO - it only runs 1-2 times a day, and it’s a small segment of a huge Miami to Maine route that can lead to delays.

I believe OBX happens next after the airport link and DeLand.   No plans for south Lake or the coast (unless you count Brightline potentially adding a stop in Brevard)

Brightline could also solve the Lakeland connection problem by having a midway stop there.  I think they should operate two different routes once the Tampa leg is complete. An express route that stops at Miami (maybe Lauderdale too), Orlando, and Tampa would allow for most people tog at where they need to go at the fastest speed possible. A local route with the former plus Melbourne, Lakeland, Lauderdale and West Palm would serve everyone else. For every three normal trips one would be a local route.  Brightline is supposed to be fairly frequent, so that ratio should work.

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5 hours ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:



Does OBX Ever happen?

Do we get rail to go west to Clermont/Groveland?

Why is there not a rail connection from Orlando to the coast? Or Lakeland?

Does Orlando EVER see any other rail transit happen for public use?

I think it eventually does, but after we get a change in the local leadership. One thing I remember Mica saying was that OBX would be cheaper per mile and per passenger then Sunrail, and he felt it should happen even before Sunrail or at the same time.

I also think if Sunrail does improve its performance drastically, add weekend service, etc, Daytona will manage to get an extension to try to encourage more beach trips and whatnot and be more of Orlando's beach.

Of course, as soon as the airport leadership/board changes, I think our very next one will still be someone trying to get the I-Drive/OCCC/airport route going again... hopefully throwing Universal and their new park in the mix. It seems like with the amount of tourists we have, and the fact universal's new parks are going to encourage more staying on property and reduce the need for a rental vehicle, it should be a lucrative and profitable route. It can also solve the Sunrail/airport link at the same time, which the cost of that just doesn't seem to make any sense to build as a standalone system.

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