SunRail

[HankStrong]

Here I sit just looking for East/West lines

[gibby]

9 hours ago, Naqiy90 said:

One advantage Lakeland has over Deland is it's much bigger and the station is in the heart of downtown, while the Deland station would have been been several miles outside of downtown.

I agree.  Getting it extended to Lakeland would be awesome.  There's a big CSX traffic and r/w width issue near downtown Lakeland.  Hopefully, someone will try to get that resolved.

Allowing CSX to share the new I-4 track from Plant City to Auburndale would be a great solution IMO.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Lakeland is Tampa not Orlando. I suppose that some ppl commute from Lakeland to Orlando, but the majority commute to Tampa. Not to mention politicians from that area fought tooth and nail to reject Sunrail. They very nearly succeeded giving a Death blow.

 

[John Hargrove]

3 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Here I sit just looking for East/West lines

For sure.

East/West transit in Orlando is basically non-existent. Transit from Winter Garden/Ocoee to UCF is 30 minutes by car or 3 hours with connections at LCS, riding buses that will stop 92 times (not an exaggeration, this is the actual number). Demand isn't there, I'm guessing.  Of course, it never will be as long as transit times are that horrible. Demand doesn't exist because the available options are nonstarters.

If you use transit to go from the west to the east side, you will spend 6 hours a day commuting 30 miles.

Edited May 28, 2019 by John Hargrove

[smileguy]

4 hours ago, HankStrong said:

Here I sit just looking for East/West lines

I don't understand what you mean. Sunrail more or less shadows I-4, which we all know has an East/West alignment! 

[HankStrong]

36 minutes ago, smileguy said:

I don't understand what you mean. Sunrail more or less shadows I-4, which we all know has an East/West alignment! 

How dumb of me!!  HAHAHAHAHA  I always forget that.

[Naqiy90]

12 hours ago, John Hargrove said:

For sure.

East/West transit in Orlando is basically non-existent. Transit from Winter Garden/Ocoee to UCF is 30 minutes by car or 3 hours with connections at LCS, riding buses that will stop 92 times (not an exaggeration, this is the actual number). Demand isn't there, I'm guessing.  Of course, it never will be as long as transit times are that horrible. Demand doesn't exist because the available options are nonstarters.

If you use transit to go from the west to the east side, you will spend 6 hours a day commuting 30 miles.

LYNX approved BRT for SR50 in 2015 but don't have the funding currently, but work on the project is progressing slowly. Presumably if the transit tax was passed it would be the first project to develop, Idk how much shorter the travel time will be, but demand is definitely there, there are 6 LYNX routes along 50 which have high ridership and are always crowded. I traveled from Metrowest to UCF for years and the buses were always jammed packed, I started taking an Uber to the Rosen campus and talking the shuttle to avoid the buses. Although with the UCF Downtown campus opening, there will be express shuttles between the two campuses so maybe LYNX won't be as focused as serving UCF with future plans now.

[John Hargrove]

11 hours ago, Naqiy90 said:

LYNX approved BRT for SR50 in 2015 but don't have the funding currently, but work on the project is progressing slowly. Presumably if the transit tax was passed it would be the first project to develop, Idk how much shorter the travel time will be, but demand is definitely there, there are 6 LYNX routes along 50 which have high ridership and are always crowded. I traveled from Metrowest to UCF for years and the buses were always jammed packed, I started taking an Uber to the Rosen campus and talking the shuttle to avoid the buses. Although with the UCF Downtown campus opening, there will be express shuttles between the two campuses so maybe LYNX won't be as focused as serving UCF with future plans now.

I didn't know about this. Sounds like a good idea. Do you know of where I can read more about it? Any route plans or anything like that? 

[codypet]

I tried to pull it up on Metroplans site, but the links appear to have been expired and not renewed.+

I did find this priority list with is on there.  If its truly a priority list in order we're gonna be waiting a while.

Edited May 29, 2019 by codypet

[Naqiy90]

2 hours ago, John Hargrove said:

I didn't know about this. Sounds like a good idea. Do you know of where I can read more about it? Any route plans or anything like that? 

I found a short presentation about it here https://slideplayer.com/slide/4363772/ or you can view the cached expired site http://lynxsr50.com at Wayback Machine. Key details would be 10 minutes peak/15 minute off peak frequency, Transit Signal Priority, off-board ticketing and all door boarding, with the first phase 13 stations between Powers and GoldenRod for initial capital costs of $36M. However it would be in mixed traffic so idk how much of an upgrade it would be, I think bus lanes would be essential for it to be truly effective since 50 is such a congested corridor. I personally don't think projects should be called BRT if it is not in an exclusive Right of Way.  Last I saw it mentioned in board meeting documents is LYNX was scouting out station locations.

[Urban25]

If only Daytona was smart enough to realize what kind of economic impact it would bring there if the sun rail extended to the beach. 

[Naqiy90]

2 hours ago, codypet said:

I tried to pull it up on Metroplans site, but the links appear to have been expired and not renewed.+

I did find this priority list with is on there.  If its truly a priority list in order we're gonna be waiting a while.

That's MetroPlans priority list, not necessarily LYNX's priority list . If Orange County passed the transit sales tax next year, presumably they could start working on BRT on 50, Semoran,  OIA to Convention Center, and expanding LYMMO immediately. My issue is all these projects are mostly frequent buses in mixed traffic with amenity upgrades ; I wish the region had the foresight for bus lanes on all major corridors, that's the only way these BRT-lite projects would be true Rapid Transit. I've ridden on real BRT in LA and it works as well as Light Rail, but what gets passed off as BRT here in Florida like the Metro Rapid in Tampa or the First Coast Flyer in Jacksonville are barely an upgrade on regular bus service.

[jrs2]

On 5/28/2019 at 11:58 AM, smileguy said:

I don't understand what you mean. Sunrail more or less shadows I-4, which we all know has an East/West alignment! 

I knew a couple of non-map people in the early 2000's that thought OIA was east of Altamonte because SR 436's alignment going E/W from I-4.  They didn't realize it curved due south after Casselberry.  Similar to the I-4 directional labeling.  I spoke to another person last week that thought Daytona was due east of Orlando and didn't realize it more so north and a little bit east.

[John Hargrove]

That plan is disappointing. Orlando might, if politics allow, plan to begin work on a small stretch (phase 1) of a new bus route that does not improve over existing buses because it's just going to be stuck in traffic on SR50 like everyone else. Nevermind that it's covering a stretch of SR50 that is likely substantially better serviced by existing bus routes.

I'll be shocked if the east-west transit situation has materially improved by 2025.

Edited May 31, 2019 by John Hargrove

[cwetteland]

I would think that if they were to  build a BRT down colonial, the lights would  be linked to give the BRT right of way through intersections, and there won't be anyone in their lane to slow them down.   I don't see them as getting stuck in traffic. at all.

[aent]

12 hours ago, cwetteland said:

I would think that if they were to  build a BRT down colonial, the lights would  be linked to give the BRT right of way through intersections, and there won't be anyone in their lane to slow them down.   I don't see them as getting stuck in traffic. at all.

But I don't think they're proposing building dedicated bus lanes. They just rebuilt much of SR 50 east of downtown a few years ago, and it took many, many years, and had no provisions for a bus lane. Given just how insanely badly that corridor needed the 3rd lane. The proposal appears to be to install a queue jump at 4 traffic signals in all of phase 1, and 8 in the total line between Oakland/Winter Garden and UCF. Every other intersection the bus will be sharing the roadway, and the signals would just be configured to extend green times to try to allow the bus to make it.

[WAJAS]

21 minutes ago, aent said:

But I don't think they're proposing building dedicated bus lanes. They just rebuilt much of SR 50 east of downtown a few years ago, and it took many, many years, and had no provisions for a bus lane. Given just how insanely badly that corridor needed the 3rd lane. The proposal appears to be to install a queue jump at 4 traffic signals in all of phase 1, and 8 in the total line between Oakland/Winter Garden and UCF. Every other intersection the bus will be sharing the roadway, and the signals would just be configured to extend green times to try to allow the bus to make it.

I have a question. Why don’t they just do that for all of the Lynx busses on the route? 

[aent]

16 minutes ago, WAJAS98 said:

I have a question. Why don’t they just do that for all of the Lynx busses on the route? 

If you're asking on this particular route, I don't know if they plan to discontinue some bus routes this route will make redundant, or let some of them do that (through downtown, this route is proposed to leave SR 50 and utilize existing Lymmo lanes)

If you're asking in general, its because Orlando is really, really bad at traffic signal coordination and control. My understanding is each traffic signal coordination project was just tackled independently for a small corridor, often using completely independent systems, and impossible to integrate with each other, and super difficult to update to changing conditions.

If you put me in charge of Orlando transportation, that would literally be among the first changes I'd try to make: getting all the traffic signals hooked up to a single system to attempt to coordinate them with each other, and allow buses throughout to get priority throughout the service area. And properly repairing failed signals, instead of our current method of leaving clearly rushed temporary fixes as permanent ones. I honestly don't remember seeing that in any other area I've ever lived.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

https://www.news-journalonline.com/news/20190715/with-federal-funds-in-sight-volusia-county-council-reconsiders-sunrail-to-deland

hopefully this time it happens!!! 

[codypet]

It was not easy to watch that Volusia County meeting.  They're pretty upset and it seemed like that board doesn't have the stomach to keep going but basically are saying we're stuck to a contract whether we like it or not.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

It was interesting to hear some of them say that Sunrail is losing money. As if they don’t understand the concept of Public transportation a SERVICE.  They expect SUNRAIL to make a profit when it will never do that. Public transportation makes dividends by guiding and encouraging new growth in sustainable clusters such as Longwood, Tupperware, Adventhealth, Maitland, Orlando Health. Otherwise we will continue to have unorganized sprawl. Public transportation is also an asset by bringing pedestrian traffic to an established economic hot zone such as Downtown Deland or Downtown Sanford, Winter Park, or Kissimmee. These commissioners seemed ignorant and without vision. I realize that they are upset for not getting the Deland station built, but they do not realize that because of their predecessors hesitations it wasn’t built in the first place. They hesitated because they couldn’t see themselves paying for it after 7 years. Now in 2019 full circle this new commission complains about paying for a hemorrhaging system.

[Naqiy90]

1 hour ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

It was interesting to hear some of them say that Sunrail is losing money. As if they don’t understand the concept of Public transportation a SERVICE.  They expect SUNRAIL to make a profit when it will never do that. Public transportation makes dividends by guiding and encouraging new growth in sustainable clusters such as Longwood, Tupperware, Adventhealth, Maitland, Orlando Health. Otherwise we will continue to have unorganized sprawl. Public transportation is also an asset by bringing pedestrian traffic to an established economic hot zone such as Downtown Deland or Downtown Sanford, Winter Park, or Kissimmee. These commissioners seemed ignorant and without vision. I realize that they are upset for not getting the Deland station built, but they do not realize that because of their predecessors hesitations it wasn’t built in the first place. They hesitated because they couldn’t see themselves paying for it after 7 years. Now in 2019 full circle this new commission complains about paying for a hemorrhaging system.

Yeah I don't understand why someone who is so anti-transit is on the SunRail board of commissioners. The economic activity increasing tax revenues will likely make up for any money spent on extending and operating the system. The Debary station has significant Transit Oriented Development planned around it I believe, I'm sure developers would love to build around the stations in Deland and Orange City if built. I wonder if they realize how much money I-4 and other roads lose; the belief that transit needs to pay for itself but roads do not is very short sighted and I hope they realize the error of their beliefs. SunRail isn't perfect and needs better service, but it's not going anywhere and Volusia county will miss a great opportunity if they don't extend it to Deland.

[HankStrong]

I've posted similar statements here before, but basically I've had this conversation in person a dozen times.  The funny part is that the most vocal complainer in my life is now retired and uses the SunRail quite a bit now.  He goes to lunch in Winter Park and goes antiquing in Sanford & DeBary.  A few weeks ago he took his grandchildren on a full trip up and back from Kissimmee to DeBary to Poinciana and back to Kissimmee to be a fun grandpa.  He love SunRail and always has a monthly pass.

The argument boils down to this: how many dollars profit does ________ (insert non-toll road) make our government?  How many dollars profit do the street lights on your street make our government?  How many dollars does the retention pond in your neighborhood make our government?  The answer is that they aren't profit centers, they are for the good of all.  We pay taxes for services that we all don't use, but we as a collective all need to make life better.

Finding ways to decrease the impact of paying for these things is a great idea!  Waste is bad.  Charging a fee for busses or trains is understandable (although the current system for SunRail needs some tweaking) but it's not to make a profit.  It is to help offset some costs and sometimes for other reasons like keeping it from becoming a transient wagon.  Let's face it, the Siegels don't need SunRail, but the Johnson, Smith, and Gonzalez families might.  It's not a system for the rich, it's a system for working people.  Although, rich & famous people apparently ride the subway in NYC, so you never know.

The weird thing here is that DeLand is exactly the type of town that would use the crap out of SunRail and it would impact them with great growth.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I believe that the rest of Volusia doesn’t care for Sunrail, but the towns in Southwest Volusia are very much on board. Orange city has been begging for a station. Deland is fighting to keep its station. Debary is one of the stops with higher ridership. Good solution is to have Southwest Volusia ceded to Seminole county lol.

[codypet]

I've always been of the opinion that Deland would benefit with a Sanford style trolley to downtown, and would benefit even more if they could get that station closer to downtown by using that industrial spur into town.  (That's probably not realistic though).  The other half of that coin would be to add the Orange City stop to take some of the load off of the Debary station.  That would be another suburban stop and would keep commuter traffic from flooding rural Deland.