SunRail

[Jernigan]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

Well I didn't see that coming...

SunRail leaders narrowly agree to build controversial DeLand extension

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-future-operations-decisions-20201029-tz372nkfq5gmlia5jqaofchkmm-story.html

"The SunRail commission of local leaders agreed Thursday in a surprising 3-2 vote to begin work on extending the commuter-rail system farther into Volusia County to DeLand."

Also didn't expect this- "The surprising no vote was by Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings, who sided with Ed Kelley, chairman of the Volusia County Council."

I believe this was more about politics than the extension.  Kelly doesn’t want it in principal.  Dyer, Janier and Dallari don’t want it but because they know it’s not going to happen because FDOT is reallocating all the money, they want to have the record show that Deland didnt happen due to FDOT and NOT because the locals failed to build the original 61 mile system that they promised the Feds that they would.   
 

I think Demings was just caught off guard.

[WAJAS]

This is probably a simplistic view, but I think this whole situation is a bit ridiculous.

All the local partners and FDOT claim that they can't build Phase 2 North because of lack of federal funds. Then, they get the federal funds. Then, they begin worrying about whether its even worth the cost to the local partners.

It's not like the cost and ridership projections were unknown when they submitted the federal grant application. The past few years would have been better spent figuring out how the local partners will actually pay for Sunrail once its their responsibility and developing Phase 3.

[jgardnerucf]

I would rather swoop around underneath to airport connection.   F that bologna up there. Dumb.         "My poorage is getting cold waitin' on the 'ol locomotive!"   ...Petticoat junction....   stupid.

[prahaboheme]

11 hours ago, WAJAS98 said:

This is probably a simplistic view, but I think this whole situation is a bit ridiculous.

All the local partners and FDOT claim that they can't build Phase 2 North because of lack of federal funds. Then, they get the federal funds. Then, they begin worrying about whether its even worth the cost to the local partners.

It's not like the cost and ridership projections were unknown when they submitted the federal grant application. The past few years would have been better spent figuring out how the local partners will actually pay for Sunrail once its their responsibility and developing Phase 3.

It’s politics.

in the 14 years I lived in Boston, the Green Line extension north was debated. It’s only now under construction.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/local/volusia/2021/01/19/volusia-county-council-chooses-42-million-sunrail-station-deland/4210478001/

Disappointed that it will be built in the middle of nowhere, however I recognize it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the MCO connection comes to fruition...

[WAJAS]

9 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

https://www.news-journalonline.com/story/news/local/volusia/2021/01/19/volusia-county-council-chooses-42-million-sunrail-station-deland/4210478001/

Disappointed that it will be built in the middle of nowhere, however I recognize it’s a step in the right direction. Hopefully the MCO connection comes to fruition...

While this doesn't go to downtown Deland, this is good that a decision has finally been made that the county is okay with.

On the possibility of a downtown Deland station: The track spur that leads to downtown Deland is actually just short of the current station on the mainline. In the future, the extension to downtown can be completed with the only sunk cost being the station itself, which is downsized in this proposal. Only a small section of track would become unused. Also, the most likely scenario is the original station stays to serve those that drive to the station because the downtown Deland station would likely have limited parking due to lack of available land.

[Jernigan]

It’s still commuter rail.   Deland is an origin station, not a destination.   I-4 doesn’t lie.  
 

That doesn’t mean there isn’t a possibility of great TOD around the station though!

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Deland has a lovely downtown, I believe that it rivals Downtown Sanford and Downtown Kissimmee. Unlike those other cities  it even has a picturesque  college campus. A downtown station would probably bring more students thus more business. Difference being that Kissimmee and Sanford have better leadership.

[spenser1058]

43 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Deland has a lovely downtown, I believe that it rivals Downtown Sanford and Downtown Kissimmee. Unlike those other cities  it even has a picturesque  college campus. A downtown station would probably bring more students thus more business. Difference being that Kissimmee and Sanford have better leadership.

DeLand is DeLightful! It won best small town in the Sentinel the last time they had a contest. Unlike Sanford (which moved most of its county stuff out of downtown), they still have a lot of government workers (although Volusia splits functions with the beachside) and Stetson makes a huge difference. 

Their biggest downside from a commuter perspective is they’re the furthest from downtown Orlando at 40 miles out.

[codypet]

FDOT's District Headquarters is very close to downtown there too.

[spenser1058]

(DeLightful!) DeLand officials are high on the idea of SunRail extension but OC Mayor Jerry Demings remains a skeptic:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-demings-doubts-deland-link-20210125-fauhkwwp5zdb7g7nvohersnqsy-story.html

From The Sentinel 

 

 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

I don’t understand why Demings  is such a skeptic. Once Sunrail connects to MCO and Disney, ppl from all over the Orlando Metro area will use the system more frequently. That includes the North of Orlando area.

[WAJAS]

24 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I don’t understand why Demings  is such a skeptic. Once Sunrail connects to MCO and Disney, ppl from all over the Orlando Metro area will use the system more frequently. That includes the North of Orlando area.

I think he thought the funds would have been better spent on the OIA extension, which I agree with based on the ridership projections. On the bright side, once this is over they'll be able to focus on future projects.

[codypet]

11 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

I don’t understand why Demings  is such a skeptic. Once Sunrail connects to MCO and Disney, ppl from all over the Orlando Metro area will use the system more frequently. That includes the North of Orlando area.

Once Sunrail connects to the airport I bet the biggest complaint is the trains don't run frequently enough. 

[gibby]

I'm still pretty lost on what's being proposed.  What is the current proposal for Sunrail to connect to the airport?

[uncreativeusername]

2 hours ago, gibby said:

I'm still pretty lost on what's being proposed.  What is the current proposal for Sunrail to connect to the airport?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Brightrail is proposing a track-sharing agreement with SunRail between OIA and Meadow Woods at least, or even potentially between Innovation Way and Disney Springs, if SunRail were to opt for a new East-West line.  The tracks would head southwest out of the airport, and meet the current SunRail line at Meadow Woods.  Brightline would go directly from OIA to Disney Springs (en route to Tampa), without a stop at Meadow Woods.  There has been some confusion in the conversation on these boards about the track sharing proposal, since it has been stated in the past that SunRail and and Brightline can't share a platform at OIA; while the two systems do have different platform requirements (Brightline platforms are raised for direct entry, SunRail is not, with steps on the train cars themselves), the tracks are the same. 

Unless I've missed it, we haven't yet seen any information on how the line would actually operate.  I'm not sure if we're more likely to see a new East/West line from Disney Springs to Innovation Way, or more of a SunRail shuttle service between Meadow Woods and OIA.  I don't know how redundant an OIA to Disney SunRail line would be with the Brightline route also existing; I suppose that depends on Brightline frequency (I have wondered if they would run an OIA/Disney shuttle for increased frequency beyond their full Miami to Orlando runs). Personally, I hope SunRail makes it to Disney not just for local tourists, but for the sake of employees. It would be very significant for Orlando's commuter rail to finally connect to the area's biggest employer. 

Edited January 26, 2021 by uncreativeusername

[WAJAS]

7 hours ago, uncreativeusername said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that Brightrail is proposing a track-sharing agreement with SunRail between OIA and Meadow Woods at least, or even potentially between Innovation Way and Disney Springs, if SunRail were to opt for a new East-West line.  The tracks would head southwest out of the airport, and meet the current SunRail line at Meadow Woods.  Brightline would go directly from OIA to Disney Springs (en route to Tampa), without a stop at Meadow Woods.  There has been some confusion in the conversation on these boards about the track sharing proposal, since it has been stated in the past that SunRail and and Brightline can't share a platform at OIA; while the two systems do have different platform requirements (Brightline platforms are raised for direct entry, SunRail is not, with steps on the train cars themselves), the tracks are the same. 

Unless I've missed it, we haven't yet seen any information on how the line would actually operate.  I'm not sure if we're more likely to see a new East/West line from Disney Springs to Innovation Way, or more of a SunRail shuttle service between Meadow Woods and OIA.  I don't know how redundant an OIA to Disney SunRail line would be with the Brightline route also existing; I suppose that depends on Brightline frequency (I have wondered if they would run an OIA/Disney shuttle for increased frequency beyond their full Miami to Orlando runs). Personally, I hope SunRail makes it to Disney not just for local tourists, but for the sake of employees. It would be very significant for Orlando's commuter rail to finally connect to the area's biggest employer. 

This confusion stems from differing proposals from CFRC (Sunrail Commision), FDOT, Orange County, and Brightline. It seems the most recent and most likely proposal is from Brightline and will be formally presented to the CFRC during their meeting on February 4th.

We'll know more then.

Edited January 27, 2021 by WAJAS

[gibby]

Thank you.  So, the goofy shuttle service is still an option?  If someone lives in downtown Kissimmee and wants to go to downtown Orlando or to the airport, what would those two options look like?

[WAJAS]

17 minutes ago, gibby said:

Thank you.  So, the goofy shuttle service is still an option?  If someone lives in downtown Kissimmee and wants to go to downtown Orlando or to the airport, what would those two options look like?

The current version (pre-Brightline proposal) was a shuttle service between OIA and a new transfer station just north of the Y-interchange with the mainline. This was done b/c the desired frequency (15 mins) would have required triple tracking to Meadow Woods or Sandlake, which would have increased the cost significantly.

To get to OIA from wherever on Sunrail, you'd take the train to the OIA transfer station, then take the shuttle train to OIA.

Brightline's proposal seems to abandon the transfer station and shuttle service. A single east-west Sunrail line from Innovation Way to Disney would replace it. Intermediate stops are proposed to be at OIA, Meadow Woods (Mainline transfer) and Hunter's Creek. This is just a proposal that hasn't been through any studies as far as we know, so it is very likely to change.

Edited January 27, 2021 by WAJAS

[uncreativeusername]

1 hour ago, gibby said:

Thank you.  So, the goofy shuttle service is still an option?  If someone lives in downtown Kissimmee and wants to go to downtown Orlando or to the airport, what would those two options look like?

I used the term "shuttle" in my description not to indicate a bus, but just a train that goes back and forth from the two stations, like Amtrak from Hartford to New Haven, or the "S" train between Grand Central and Penn Station. 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Once this is up and running for sure the next priority is a line that takes u to international drive, Universal Studios, and the convention center.  Anyone with ideas on how this will come to fruition?? Which route will most likely be used?
 

[codypet]

55 minutes ago, uncreativeusername said:

I used the term "shuttle" in my description not to indicate a bus, but just a train that goes back and forth from the two stations, like Amtrak from Hartford to New Haven, or the "S" train between Grand Central and Penn Station. 

Yep.  That's my understanding of your term.

2 hours ago, WAJAS said:

The current version (pre-Brightline proposal) was a shuttle service between OIA and a new transfer station just north of the Y-interchange with the mainline. This was done b/c the desired frequency (15 mins) would have required triple tracking to Meadow Woods or Sandlake, which would have increased the cost significantly.

To get to OIA from wherever on Sunrail, you'd take the train to the OIA transfer station, then take the shuttle train to OIA.

Brightline's proposal seems to abandon the transfer station and shuttle service. A single east-west Sunrail line from Innovation Way to Disney would replace it. Intermediate stops are proposed to be at OIA, Meadow Woods (Mainline transfer) and Hunter's Creek. This is just a proposal that hasn't been through any studies as far as we know, so it is very likely to change.

This is correct.

41 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Once this is up and running for sure the next priority is a line that takes u to international drive, Universal Studios, and the convention center.  Anyone with ideas on how this will come to fruition?? Which route will most likely be used?
 

Now I wish the  rail line between Kissimmee and Winter Garden still existed.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

2 minutes ago, codypet said:

Now I wish the  rail line between Kissimmee and Winter Garden still existed.

Where was this rail line located?

[WAJAS]

1 hour ago, uncreativeusername said:

I used the term "shuttle" in my description not to indicate a bus, but just a train that goes back and forth from the two stations, like Amtrak from Hartford to New Haven, or the "S" train between Grand Central and Penn Station. 

The S goes between Times Square and Grand Central, but yeah. It's also not the only S train in the MTA. The S just describes the shuttle services, which there are about 3 of depending on when you look.

[codypet]

23 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Where was this rail line located?

Best I can describe based on hours of research and historical aerials until my eyes bled, Is it spurred off the current CSX/Sunrail line in Kissimmee went north and west along an alignment roughly where MLK is now. 

Then by Kissimmee airport ran roughly on the alignment of the Kissimmee Bike trail.  Crossed shingle creek and 192 and continued NW along Old Vineland Road (behind the old Publix) and then basically along APV (Apopka Vineland) , crossing APV by the Winn Dixie, and continuing north into Dr. Phillips.  (Remember the Rinker plant in DP next to Bay Meadows Elementary? It would have been able to access this line) This is would have also been the line the Oranges would have traveled on.   

Continuing north toward SLR (the aerial scar becomes more prominent starting at Cypress Point and continuing north), the line would cross SLR (Sand Lake Road) and then, from the best I can determine from my research crossed through what is now Bay Hill and Isleworth between Lake Blanche and Lake Chase into Windermere. 

 The old system is pretty obvious along Main St. in Windermere and appeared to follow Park Ridge Gotha Rd, continuing where the 408/TPK interchange currently sits, ran east of Lake Pearl and Lake Lily and along the Old Old Winter Garden Road/Bluford alignment.

   

Crossed Geneva St @ Cumberland Ave and then followed Kissimmee Ave until it met the line at Oakland Ave.

Edited January 27, 2021 by codypet