SunRail

[WAJAS]

50 minutes ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

Once this is up and running for sure the next priority is a line that takes u to international drive, Universal Studios, and the convention center.  Anyone with ideas on how this will come to fruition?? Which route will most likely be used?
 

There have been studies in the past on this. It's the kind of thing that would be more certain with a dedicated funding source. Generally, the line would go between OIA and OCCC through Sandlake.

Here's a recent study on the OIA Connector (the corridor along I-Drive and to OIA). It includes the current preferred alternative. You'll notice that they recommended BRT instead of LRT due to costs: arch 2013 (metroplanorlando.org)

Here's the most recent SunRail Phase 3 Study. It includes info on the shuttle service and the preferred alternative: 3515-2018-05 Project Development and Environment Study .pdf (cflroads.com)

Here's an FDOT report circa 2010 on the multiple rail corridors under investigation for Orlando. You'll notice many past projects like the Original LRT proposal from the early 2000s, Florida High Speed Rail, and OBX as well as current ones like SunRail and the OIA Connector: [Attached]

If you want to find the studies and reports on these projects, then use the most used name (like "OIA Connector," "Sunrail Phase 3 Airport") followed by "Study," "Report," "Alternatives Analysis," "Locally Preferred Alternative," "PD&E," "PDF," etc. depending on what you're looking for.

CF_Rail_System_Concept_Plan_Booklet.pdf

[WAJAS]

From that OIA Connector report I just referenced, the following is a map of the viable alternatives. Alternatives 3,4 are LRT. Alternatives 2,6 are BRT. This is a further development of a previous study with more alternatives, which is why the numbers aren't consecutive. 

This further developed alternative is the selected alternative, which is a combo of some of the previous alternatives. Sadly, the selected alternative was BRT due to costs.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Speculation is fun!! I just wanted to see the ideas of others. I was just looking at the spur that connects to the main North-South Sunrail line and I stumbled  at how the 528/ beach line conveniently crosses over. Potential stops at Florida Mall/ SOBT, Darden Hdqtrs at John Young Parkway, Aquatica/Sea World. Afterwards  the new tracks can veer onto International drive northbound with 3 more potential stops at Universal Studios, OCCC, and icon park. The tracks once again can veer westbound onto Sandlake rd towards S Apopka Vineland rd at which it turns northbound terminating at the corner of Conroy Windermere and S Apopka Vineland rd. This would produce potential stops at Dr Phillips and Windermere. That’s a total of 9 stops. It could be 10 stops but Sand lake Station is just north of the 528 unless it is relocated where the tracks and 528 intersect.

[AmIReal]

Not sure if this goes in Sunrail or Brightline topic

Brightline is seeking a rail system partner in Orlando. Per OBJ, the proposal will go before Sunrail in 2/4 meeting and includes "would include a 28-mile shared east/west span from Walt Disney World to Innovation Way in east Orange County, and have additional stations in Hunters Creek and Meadow Woods. As part of the proposal, a SunRail route to the airport would be completed by 2025."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/29/brightline-proposed-corridor-sunrail-orlando.html

I Drive Chamber is opposed to the route. In a letter to Mayor Demings, "We strongly believe that any future transportation system that does not include service from the Orlando International Airport to the International Drive Resort Area within [its] plan, will be setting the stage for [devastating] consequences in future growth, development and success of our entire community."

[codypet]

3 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Not sure if this goes in Sunrail or Brightline topic

Brightline is seeking a rail system partner in Orlando. Per OBJ, the proposal will go before Sunrail in 2/4 meeting and includes "would include a 28-mile shared east/west span from Walt Disney World to Innovation Way in east Orange County, and have additional stations in Hunters Creek and Meadow Woods. As part of the proposal, a SunRail route to the airport would be completed by 2025."

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/01/29/brightline-proposed-corridor-sunrail-orlando.html

I Drive Chamber is opposed to the route. In a letter to Mayor Demings, "We strongly believe that any future transportation system that does not include service from the Orlando International Airport to the International Drive Resort Area within [its] plan, will be setting the stage for [devastating] consequences in future growth, development and success of our entire community."

To me, this alignment is the single most interesting and important link for Orlando's Transportation infrastructure.  Straight Down Sand Lake?  Straight down 528? the old HSR alignment down Taft Vineland? Brightlines proposed 417 route which links up Hunter's Creek?  They all have their advantages and cost benefits.

Edited January 29, 2021 by codypet

[prahaboheme]

7 hours ago, codypet said:

To me, this alignment is the single most interesting and important link for Orlando's Transportation infrastructure.  Straight Down Sand Lake?  Straight down 528? the old HSR alignment down Taft Vineland? Brightlines proposed 417 route which links up Hunter's Creek?  They all have their advantages and cost benefits.

The Sand Lake alignment brings this so much closer to the critical mass around I-Drive and Universal. 

Also, what is up with Innovation Way as a stop?

A convention center stop should always prioritize IMO.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

3 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

The Sand Lake alignment brings this so much closer to the critical mass around I-Drive and Universal. 

Also, what is up with Innovation Way as a stop?

A convention center stop should always prioritize IMO.

What will probably happen is that Sunrail will take them up on their offer to use SR 528 on then veer off onto 417 and go north towardS UCF. This route will have potential stops for Avalon park, VALENCIA East campus, ALAFAYA and most importantly UCF. In the opposite direction potential stops will probably be Hunters creek, DISNEY Springs and 4 Corners.. Thus our E/W LINEwill probably go from SW to NE

[Uncommon]

12 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

The Sand Lake alignment brings this so much closer to the critical mass around I-Drive and Universal. 

Also, what is up with Innovation Way as a stop?

A convention center stop should always prioritize IMO.

I have no idea why Innovation Way is a stop. Maybe because of Avalon Park?

9 hours ago, Urban Mail Carrier said:

What will probably happen is that Sunrail will take them up on their offer to use SR 528 on then veer off onto 417 and go north towardS UCF. This route will have potential stops for Avalon park, VALENCIA East campus, ALAFAYA and most importantly UCF. In the opposite direction potential stops will probably be Hunters creek, DISNEY Springs and 4 Corners.. Thus our E/W LINEwill probably go from SW to NE

Sounds like a pipe dream to be honest.

[Alleri459]

Well, an entire transit network does not happen overnight. Maybe this public and private partnership can jumpstart a much needed network.

[WAJAS]

 

4 hours ago, aleonrivera said:

Well, an entire transit network does not happen overnight. Maybe this public and private partnership can jumpstart a much needed network.

Let's get down to brass tax. If you all want a proper transit system, then you are not going to get it from Brightline's proposal and the generosity of the Florida/Federal governments alone.

In almost every successful modern area with transit, the region has a dedicated funding source that is above the current cost to operate the transit system.  This allows the excess funds to be used to study and (overtime) pay the capital necessary to expand and improve the system, and it also allows the transit provider to make decisions guided by yet not forced from a city or county government. This leads to smarter route selection that is not guided by politics.

If you want Orlando to have a proper transit system, then you need a dedicated funding source. I'll be sure to advocate when it comes up again in 2022 or 2024, but this is the reality of the "pipe dream" that many of us have.

8 hours ago, Uncommon said:

I have no idea why Innovation Way is a stop. Maybe because of Avalon Park?

Innovation Way is  a stop because its one of the only areas with residential anywhere along that portion of the route. It's also because the OCCC really likes the idea of Innovation Way becoming a thing, so its a better pitch. Also, none of the current stops (beside the obvious) are anywhere close to final.

It's also important to point out that a route like this makes no sense for commuter rail. It honestly should be light rail.

Edited January 30, 2021 by WAJAS

[WAJAS]

An update on the Brightline proposal from the Biz Journal: Miami passenger train Brightline wants to share airport Orlando SunRail corridor - Orlando Business Journal (bizjournals.com)

"The proposal is slated to go before SunRail's Central Florida Commuter Rail Commission on Feb. 4"

"The International Drive Resort Area Chamber of Commerce in November 2020 sent a letter to commuter rail commission member and Orange County Mayor Jerry Demings, requesting the proposed east/west alignment include a connection to Orlando's International Drive tourism and entertainment district."

Looks like I-Drive Chamber is trying to force this to become a larger project. I'm all for it! Hopefully, this also forces the conversion to light rail for faster and more frequent service along the east-west route. The Sunrail mainline would stay commuter rail of course for a variety or reasons, like ROW limitations and the longer distance.

Edited January 30, 2021 by WAJAS

[Alleri459]

41 minutes ago, WAJAS said:

 

Let's get down to brass tax. If you all want a proper transit system, then you are not going to get it from Brightline's proposal and the generosity of the Florida/Federal governments alone.

In almost every successful modern area with transit, the region has a dedicated funding source that is above the current cost to operate the transit system.  This allows the excess funds to be used to study and (overtime) pay the capital necessary to expand and improve the system, and it also allows the transit provider to make decisions guided by yet not forced from a city or county government. This leads to smarter route selection that is not guided by politics.

If you want Orlando to have a proper transit system, then you need a dedicated funding source. I'll be sure to advocate when it comes up again in 2022 or 2024, but this is the reality of the "pipe dream" that many of us have.

Innovation Way is  a stop because its one of the only areas with residential anywhere along that portion of the route. It's also because the OCCC really likes the idea of Innovation Way becoming a thing, so its a better pitch. Also, none of the current stops (beside the obvious) are anywhere close to final.

It's also important to point out that a route like this makes no sense for commuter rail. It honestly should be light rail.

I 100% agree with you. We absolutely need the dedicated funding source to fund and operate a transit system. If, and/or when, Brightline builds the route, it can be sold to Lynx or a future regional transit agency, leading to  the creation of this dedicated funding source we desperately need. 

[Urban Mail Carrier]

Well I agree with Uncommon that speculation on potential routes are only pipe dreams only until we know for certain how much money a dedicated fund will generate. Like shopping for a house without knowing how much the bank will lend u.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Urban Mail Carrier

[Jerry95]

21 hours ago, WAJAS said:

Hopefully, this also forces the conversion to light rail for faster and more frequent service along the east-west route.

Point of clarity, a light rail system could not operate on the Brightline tracks, it has to be heavy rail, which is why it’s coined as “commuter rail”. Calling it commuter rail doesn’t mean the frequency won’t be optimized for the demand. 

[WAJAS]

7 minutes ago, Jerry95 said:

Point of clarity, a light rail system could not operate on the Brightline tracks, it has to be heavy rail, which is why it’s coined as “commuter rail”. Calling it commuter rail doesn’t mean the frequency won’t be optimized for the demand. 

You're right that they couldn't operate on the same tracks, but it's currently unclear if Brightline will allow shared use of the tracks or simplify offer the ROW. The early designs for the shared corridor from the OUC interchange to the 417 included exclusive trackage for each. Also, with the addition of the I-Drive Chamber's comments, the likelihood that light rail is used for the whole route increases.

Commuter rail is meant to carry more people over longer distances with lower frequencies. Light rail has lower capacity trains with lower amenities that is counteracted by higher frequencies. Generally, the optimized frequency for demand for commuter rail is lower than for light rail.

Edited January 31, 2021 by WAJAS

[codypet]

@WAJASDoes Brightline own any R/W that's not the FEC line?  I think everything is leased from another agency.  

[AmIReal]

Up for consideration this Thursday, "the SunRail commission, with mayors and commissioners from Orlando and Orange, Osceola, Seminole, Volusia counties, is a resolution that would establish a study on how to build, share and pay for a corridor between the airport and SunRail’s Meadow Woods station."

From OS, "The longstanding expectation for a link to Orlando’s airport is to use tracks operated by Orlando Utilities Commission for coal trains that pass the airport on the way to a power plant in east Orange County."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-brightline-airport-20210201-wfznpdlv4vguzgrrb52w7uixyy-story.html

[WAJAS]

10 hours ago, codypet said:

@WAJASDoes Brightline own any R/W that's not the FEC line?  I think everything is leased from another agency.  

I don't know to be honest. They either lease, purchased, or have a ROW share agreement with FDOT, CFXA, and GOAA (Greater Orlando Aviation Authority) throughout the route.

32 minutes ago, AmIReal said:

Up for consideration this Thursday, "the SunRail commission, with mayors and commissioners from Orlando and Orange, Osceola, Seminole, Volusia counties, is a resolution that would establish a study on how to build, share and pay for a corridor between the airport and SunRail’s Meadow Woods station."

From OS, "The longstanding expectation for a link to Orlando’s airport is to use tracks operated by Orlando Utilities Commission for coal trains that pass the airport on the way to a power plant in east Orange County."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-brightline-airport-20210201-wfznpdlv4vguzgrrb52w7uixyy-story.html

Hopefully, Brightline's reps have more information at the meeting that we can base our speculation off of. Otherwise, we will need to wait for that study to be finished to have a good idea of what's likely to occur.

[WAJAS]

I recommend taking a read at the approved minutes from the October Central Florida Commuter Rail Commission meeting (CRFC). I have many opinions on what occurred, including the perceived inconsistency in FDOT's comments from earlier and their current position. Not to mention, the Volusia County representative seemed to not immediately understand that the funds, if not used for Phase 2 North, would not necessarily be used for SunRail, and that FDOT would not commit to where the funds would be moved to.

Agenda 02-04-2021 FINAL (sunrail.com)

Edited February 4, 2021 by WAJAS

[codypet]

Road guy Rob does a video on TOD and I just keep thinking about the potential for Sunrail and the development around the tracks.  Specifically Meadow Woods since that concept had a really aggressive development plan for the parking lot around the station.

 

[AmIReal]

A nice surprise at the Thursday meeting. FDOT said they "will continue to be responsible for running the commuter system of 49 miles and 16 stations during that period, before transferring control and costs to Central Florida governments..." during the next 36 months while the Deland connection is being built.

Also, "The estimated $44 million price is reduced by nearly half from earlier estimates, meaning the $11 million portion for Volusia County also is scaled back significantly from earlier estimates." That connection was previously priced at $75 million. The new price tag is due to there will no longer be a full station there, but a platform.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-brightline-deland-decisions-20210204-kao36htlqva6pbvvxondrnjhdq-story.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/02/04/brightline-sunrail-orlando-airport-connection.html

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by AmIReal

[AndyPok1]

5 hours ago, codypet said:

Road guy Rob does a video on TOD and I just keep thinking about the potential for Sunrail and the development around the tracks.  Specifically Meadow Woods since that concept had a really aggressive development plan for the parking lot around the station.

I came across this guy a few months ago on my YouTube recs and he does great videos.

[Urban Mail Carrier]

1 hour ago, AmIReal said:

A nice surprise at the Thursday meeting. FDOT said they "will continue to be responsible for running the commuter system of 49 miles and 16 stations during that period, before transferring control and costs to Central Florida governments..." during the next 36 months while the Deland connection is being built.

That’s excellent news. Gives Demings more time to identify a funding source. The only negative that I can see is that the MCO train station and connection will be completed before those 3 years. FDOT didn’t exactly want to fund extended hours, increased frequency and weekend service, something a connection to MCO will need.

[WAJAS]

4 hours ago, AmIReal said:

A nice surprise at the Thursday meeting. FDOT said they "will continue to be responsible for running the commuter system of 49 miles and 16 stations during that period, before transferring control and costs to Central Florida governments..." during the next 36 months while the Deland connection is being built.

Also, "The estimated $44 million price is reduced by nearly half from earlier estimates, meaning the $11 million portion for Volusia County also is scaled back significantly from earlier estimates." That connection was previously priced at $75 million. The new price tag is due to there will no longer be a full station there, but a platform.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/transportation/os-ne-sunrail-brightline-deland-decisions-20210204-kao36htlqva6pbvvxondrnjhdq-story.html

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/02/04/brightline-sunrail-orlando-airport-connection.html

 

What does a not-full station mean? Is there still parking, bus depots, and digital signage?

[orange87]

Is this where the new DeLand Sunrail Station will be?

Edited February 5, 2021 by orange87