SunRail

[gumpking1]

Totally agree. If a light rail is the only viable option, I'd rather wait to see that happen rather than not wait and see a commuter rail go up with problems. Central florida is spread out and that's a problem for public transit. I see a light rail from int. drive(convention) to downtown, to OIA, to winterpark, and maybe a major hospital as a viable option. All in all, these stops need to be in walking distance from major landmarks.

If buses can close the gap, a link from the train is not a bad idea. It just has to flow really smooth for it to work.

Whats the difference between light and commuter rail?

[uncreativeusername]

Whats the difference between light and commuter rail?

light rail = streetcars, trolleys, electric busses w. overhead power-source with or without dedicated right-of-way. Commuter rail = actual trains on traditional railroad tracks. Correct me anyone if I'm wrong...

[cwetteland]

light rail = streetcars, trolleys, electric busses w. overhead power-source with or without dedicated right-of-way. Commuter rail = actual trains on traditional railroad tracks. Correct me anyone if I'm wrong...

Absolutely regarding Commuter Rail. Often shares tracks with other traditional trains. I believe the Commuter Rail just approved use just CSX tracks. However the light rail that was planned and cancelled was a train that shared some of CSX tracks in Downtown but then branched off on its own tracks to go down I-4 and for the I Drive area. I think. Correct me anyone if I'm wrong ...

[JRS1]

I just realized that the rails to trails campaign really screwed future Commuter Rail links from east to west. THere's the one that borders(ed) Aloma that I completely forgot about.

[mrh3]

I just realized that the rails to trails campaign really screwed future Commuter Rail links from east to west. THere's the one that borders(ed) Aloma that I completely forgot about.

As long as the land is still cleared I am sure that new track can be laid? Right? I think that the long term benefits of an East/West route will out pace those of a nature trail.

[cwetteland]

As long as the land is still cleared I am sure that new track can be laid? Right? I think that the long term benefits of an East/West route will out pace those of a nature trail.

So, you think that in the future there will be a trails to rail movement?

[facilities man]

So, you think that in the future there will be a trails to rail movement?

That would never happen. The people who live along the abandoned rail lines didn't even want the trails built originally. Most have changed their minds after they saw how nice they are and that they increase their property values. Converting back to rail would bring out the NIMBY's. There's no chance. It would have been nice to combine a light rail with a bike trail next to it, but it's too late now.

[gibby]

That would never happen. The people who live along the abandoned rail lines didn't even want the trails built originally. Most have changed their minds after they saw how nice they are and that they increase their property values. Converting back to rail would bring out the NIMBY's. There's no chance. It would have been nice to combine a light rail with a bike trail next to it, but it's too late now.

There is a similar project being designed in Atlanta that utilizes many existing lines around town.

[VistaLakes01]

That would never happen. The people who live along the abandoned rail lines didn't even want the trails built originally. Most have changed their minds after they saw how nice they are and that they increase their property values. Converting back to rail would bring out the NIMBY's. There's no chance. It would have been nice to combine a light rail with a bike trail next to it, but it's too late now.

Unfortunately I believe the political clout of the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority probably will keep an East West rail route from becoming a reality for a long time. The extent that they are rebuilding the 408 and the amazing architechtural design of the project (it really is a really cool Euro-looking expressway) surely means they want as many vehicles using the road as possible. Of course what would really be cool is if they could build their own sleek trains and stations combined with the 408 and have the $$ go to the expressway authority and be an all around transportation authority. That would really be innovative. Has anyone seen a rendering for the new Lake Underhill Orlando gateway bridge? It's supposed to be a false suspension bridge with lights and a welcome to Orlando similar to the Conroy Rd. bridge on I-4. Does anyone think this is a waste of $$? (Personally I think any project like this is extremely cool and gives the city clout.

[neon9]

Unfortunately I believe the political clout of the Orlando Orange County Expressway Authority probably will keep an East West rail route from becoming a reality for a long time. The extent that they are rebuilding the 408 and the amazing architechtural design of the project (it really is a really cool Euro-looking expressway) surely means they want as many vehicles using the road as possible. Of course what would really be cool is if they could build their own sleek trains and stations combined with the 408 and have the $$ go to the expressway authority and be an all around transportation authority. That would really be innovative. Has anyone seen a rendering for the new Lake Underhill Orlando gateway bridge? It's supposed to be a false suspension bridge with lights and a welcome to Orlando similar to the Conroy Rd. bridge on I-4. Does anyone think this is a waste of $$? (Personally I think any project like this is extremely cool and gives the city clout.

I personally would say a false anything is a waste, but really, a small suspension bridge here? Seems like they would do better with landscaping and trim on the bridge as opposed to major fake structural elements. Also, I imagine that although the expansion of the 408 may just keep track with growth now, to make the lanes last any longer than 2-4 years at this rate of growth would require a major alternative...

[Dale]

I remember reading awhile back that rising construction costs will necessitate a simpler design for the decorative bridge on the 408.

[L3ft1isM]

hurry up and build it before someone calls it up for vote again!

[Dale]

I don't think this can be rescinded. However, I think we might have to white-knuckle it a bit on gettint the cooperation from all the communities (ahem, Winter Park) along the line.

And I suppose I can understand Winter Park's reservations. Evidentally, they still don't know how much money they're going to have to cough up.

Edited August 21, 2006 by Dale

[mrh3]

I don't think this can be rescinded. However, I think we might have to white-knuckle it a bit on gettint the cooperation from all the communities (ahem, Winter Park) along the line.

And I suppose I can understand Winter Park's reservations. Evidentally, they still don't know how much money they're going to have to cough up.

It's ironic to me that WP would make such a big deal about the commuter rail line. It's not like anyone is asking to open a Greyhound transfer station for Central Florida on Park Avenue! In Philadelphia/Chicago/San Francisco the most prestigious cities then and today are those located along their commuter rail lines-down to the fact that Philly's "Main Line" suburbs were and still are the most desirable. Someone give them a dose of reality and getovayaselves.

[bic]

Sounds like Miami Beach's negative attitude towards rail in their attempt to thwart the "undesirables" from having easy access to their town.

[neon9]

The report by the DOE referenced predicts 'Peak Oil', or maximum followed by falling world oil production, in 10 to 20 years. Along with the possibility that it may come much sooner.

As written by Alan Drake on www.theoildrum.com:

The recent Peak Oil mitigation study, Economic Impacts of U.S. Liquid Fuel Mitigation Options prepared by Hirsch, Bezdek and Wendling for the Department of Energy overlooked the "best" solution (link to summary with link to report). This overlooked approach can have a quicker and larger impact than any one of the proposed mitigations; and quite possibly more than all production orientated approachs together. In extremis, it is technically and socially possible (see historical precedents below) for this one solution plus declining US domestic production to provide all of our transportation needs without resorting to coal-to-liquids, oil shale or accelerated enhanced oil recovery. And do so in an environmentally positive way without any significant environmental obstacles to slow implementation.

The first of the two linked, and overlooked, approaches is to electrify our inter-city freight railroads (with some enhancements) and promote inter-modal transfers with free market and other incentives (such as Interstate Highway tolls). The DoE study states "...trains... simply have no ready alternative to liquid fuels". This is clearly untrue for this particular mode for the time scales of the study. The only existing capital good affected, diesel-electric locomotives, can be easily rebuilt or replaced with cheaper electric locomotives for a "trivial" expenditure.

The other overlooked approach is to build Urban Rail on a scale at least comparable to (or more intensely than) the Interstate Highway system.

A conservative estimate, based on a major but not a crash effort, is that these two approaches can save 10% of US Oil use in ten to twelve years. (See attached paper). A crash effort could do more today than the "Peak Streetcar" building era from 1897 to 1916. As a nation of less than 100 million people, a majority still rural, with a GNP (inflation adjusted) of just ~3% of today and quite primitive technology, the United States built 500 streetcar systems. Most towns of 25,000 and larger got electrified transportation. Clearly the United States has the technology and resources to do much more today than a century ago.

In addition, electric trolley buses and enhanced transportation bicycling can provide vital links in a non-oil transportation system. Electric assisted "tricycles" can service a broad spectrum of the population with a non-oil alternative for local travel, such as to the closest electric rail stop or neighborhood grocery.

The changes in the urban form brought about by an abundance of electrified Urban Rail and a paucity of liquid transportation fuels would be of the magnitude of the changes brought about by deliberate federal policy from 1950 to 1970; when almost all downtown shopping and business districts died, most established neighborhoods declined and suburbia and shopping malls boomed.

We did it once, we can do it again !

Oil, or "Liquid Transportation Fuels", are not required to support an advanced Western industrial society with a vibrant democracy and a decent quality of life. A premier example is Switzerland of WW II. Due to strategic decisions made in the 1920s, and subsequent investments, they were able to function with 1/400th of current US per capita oil use in 1945. Three years later, they were still at 7% of current US oil use, a level that would allow the United States of today to join OPEC as the 3rd or 4th largest oil exporter.

In a more recent strategic decision, Swiss voters approved in 1998 a twenty year, 31 billion Swiss franc program to improve their already excellent electric rail system. Adjusted for population and currency, this is equivalent to the United States voting $1 trillion ! The dominant goal, of several goals, is to move all heavy freight by electric rail and not truck. Semi-high speed passenger service, improved rural access and quieter rail cars are other Swiss goals.

The Swiss are not alone in taking strongly pro-active actions to get off oil today. The Thais have budgeted 550 billion baht (~US$14 billion) for mass transit, are building a 95% renewable electricity grid and developing small scale rural bio-gas. All from a Third World economy of 60 million people ! And the French are in the midst of adding one tram line to every town of 150,000 and two tram lines to every city of 250,000 as well as finishing their renowned TGV system. Sweden and Finland are setting goals and deadlines for an oil-less society. Even Russia is rapidly electrifying their railroads. All of the above are working towards solutions that significantly reduce Global Warming emissions as well as significantly reducing oil dependence.

Electric rail and associated changes in development have, unlike the production alternatives studied in the report, a negative feedback relationship with tight oil supplies and an ability to scale up very quickly. The more expensive oil becomes, the more effective Urban Rail and electrified freight railroad will become; thereby dampening the social and economic impact of Peak Oil. Of the approaches studied, this is true of only increased vehicle efficiency. And in a sudden oil supply interruption, both Urban Rail and electrified freight can be scaled up by 50% to 100% in a week if prior preparations have been made. This is not true of any other alternative proposed.

Coal-to-Liquids and Canadian tar sands use similar, and scarce, speciality industrial products and scarce personnel. Several key industrial products and personnel are bottlenecks today in the limited expansion of Canadian tar sands production. These existing shortages, with associated cost over-runs and delays, call into question the extremely aggressive schedule in the DoE paper. Enhanced Oil Recovery likewise competes with conventional oil and natural gas production for critically scarce resources.

By contrast, there is a large and robust international industrial base supporting the very large installed base of electrified rail. This international support can easily supplement any domestic shortfalls and allow massive implementation quickly.

Electric rail, Urban & Inter-city, vehicle efficiency, electric trolley buses and transportation bicycling are the best alternatives available and can, by themselves, potentially deal with the consequences of Peak Oil. All of these approaches are better environmentally, economically, socially and for strategic security; they can be scaled up faster and will not suffer as much from industrial and personnel shortages. There is no technological risk with electrified rail, unlike the extreme risks associated with oil shale and substantial technological risks with large scale CTL and EOR.

By every reasonable metric, the first alternatives listed are "better" than CTL and oil shale production.

The DoE study has one very large, unrealistic and unstated assumption; "More than doubling US transportation carbon emissions will have minimal political opposition and will not slow implementation". One reading of the political tea leaves is that CTL and Oil Shales will only be pursued if they are carbon neutral. One political strategy is to balance carbon positive CTL & Oil Shale recovery with carbon negative Urban Rail and railroad electrification (both with ~20 to 1 energy efficiency gains) in a carbon neutral program. This may be the only politically possible program that involves CTL and Oil Shales.

The crisis of Peak Oil may require that all alternatives, the best and the sub-optimal, be aggressively pursued. But the best alternatives should be pursued first, most aggressively and most completely.

[uptownliving]

So has this system been submitted to the FTA for Prelim Engineering? Is so when did it happen...if not, when do they plan to submit it for Preliminary Engineering review?

[JRS1]

is there any update on this project or what the next step is at this point?

[neon9]

is there any update on this project or what the next step is at this point?

Wish I knew.

Check out this commercial, by Chevron of all people, in the meantime (the one with the yellow dunes)

http://www.willyoujoinus.com/advertising/television/

[JRS1]

Wish I knew.

Check out this commercial, by Chevron of all people, in the meantime (the one with the yellow dunes)

http://www.willyoujoinus.com/advertising/television/

we should build as dedicated baby stroller system instead!

[JRS1]

Maybe a developer at the former Pizzuti block should consider a major retail component that could directly benefit from the commuter rail traffic. kinda like up north where there's deli's and other eateries at Union Sta. chitown and in NYC and DC. they could really move light-years forward by doing something like that. I don't want the DT station at Lynx to be an open-air canopy-type deal.

I also wonder what they'll do at Church St. for that particular stop, not to mention the ORMC Amtrak stop.

[VistaLakes01]

Maybe a developer at the former Pizzuti block should consider a major retail component that could directly benefit from the commuter rail traffic. kinda like up north where there's deli's and other eateries at Union Sta. chitown and in NYC and DC. they could really move light-years forward by doing something like that. I don't want the DT station at Lynx to be an open-air canopy-type deal.

I also wonder what they'll do at Church St. for that particular stop, not to mention the ORMC Amtrak stop.

Great idea! Is there any one in these forums that has the clout to suggest these things or is there anybody to contact with these ideas? If someone were to take the train DT to the new PAC or Arena, if there were that type of atmosphere as you suggest I believe ridership would be much higher!

[JRS1]

Great idea! Is there any one in these forums that has the clout to suggest these things or is there anybody to contact with these ideas? If someone were to take the train DT to the new PAC or Arena, if there were that type of atmosphere as you suggest I believe ridership would be much higher!

I'm a firm believer in the "novelty" in doing most anything. It's like the PTP-- people will go see a movie there just b/c its there; it's cool. If they built a transit village or whatever, ...

tell you what, I live in WP. You might just see me parking at my buddy's condo off of NY and Carolina just to take the CRail into DT; just for giggles... b/c it would be so cool.

[monsoon]

If other cities are an indication, I predict the land within walking distance of the stations will become very valuable for development.

[neon9]

If other cities are an indication, I predict the land within walking distance of the stations will become very valuable for development.

Absolutely. Although it helps if the line runs later-you can get off work DT, ride to Sanford for happy hour at some place on Lake Monroe (is there such a place now?) then ride home to DeBary. Or just live near one of the closer stops :-)

metrowester It's just a matter of money I think. Money and the willingness to take a risk-I mean is the rail line even a go yet?

I'd bet a few million on a TOD development if I had a few to throw around. Or at least a million on some land speculation.

Edited October 8, 2006 by neon9