SunRail

[bulldogger]

I am a registered Democrat. That being said... Republican John Mica of Winter Park realistically got us the commuter rail. Buddy Dyer - Dem. Crotty - Rep. Gov Bush - Rep.

3 out of 4 major players getting the commuter rail in place are Republicans. I know it also involves 3 other counties and commissions therein, but those are the majors.

And the Democrats may have just made a major swing in the vote, but they aren't taking over until January.

And the Florida thing... Flor Idiots?

[Boomer136]

At the danger of going off topic of the off topic topic. Who picks our state suffixes? When I lived in Michigan, what was popular was the 'Michigander', five or so years later I heard of Michiginian. Floridian could have been Floridaster, Floridaman in the pre-women's lib days, or even Floridese.

And what then should a person from Orlando call themselves? Orlandoid?

Edited November 17, 2006 by Boomer136

[bulldogger]

Floridese Nuts

Edited November 17, 2006 by bulldogger

[bic]

Floridese Nuts

Post of the year.

[Whipp]

At the danger of going off topic of the off topic topic. Who picks our state suffixes? When I lived in Michigan, what was popular was the 'Michigander', five or so years later I heard of Michiginian. Floridian could have been Floridaster, Floridaman in the pre-women's lib days, or even Floridese.

And what then should a person from Orlando call themselves? Orlandoid?

michiginagain?

[neon9]

I am a registered Democrat. That being said... Republican John Mica of Winter Park realistically got us the commuter rail. Buddy Dyer - Dem. Crotty - Rep. Gov Bush - Rep.

3 out of 4 major players getting the commuter rail in place are Republicans. I know it also involves 3 other counties and commissions therein, but those are the majors.

And the Democrats may have just made a major swing in the vote, but they aren't taking over until January.

And the Florida thing... Flor Idiots?

Gov Bush wants commuter and high speed rail? You could have fooled me. He fought both, and mostly mentioned moving CSX traffic when he showed up here to 'introduce' commuter rail. I know he's been quoted as saying that high speed rail is a waste of money, a 'boondoggle'.

In general, I think it's safe to say most republicans do not want or like mass transit. If this is not the case then it's news to me. Of course, some are far sighted enough to realize we can't ever build enough highways to move all our sprawled populace quickly, or that the lower classes actually need public or in fact subsidized transportation to get to their jobs.

Hell, if you consider how much taxpayer money is poured into the state DOT's and the FHA and all the other road pavers and maintainers, personal vehicle transportation has got to be the most subsidized of them all, except perhaps air travel-per passenger anyway. Every mile of 2 lane roadway costs about a million these days, including land, and at least 50k a year to maintain (esp. if you include a resurfacing every 10 years or so).

Mica is the former I think, since he's also proposed toll lanes on I-4, a reasonable idea for those who need to get somewhere quickly. As far as democrats being much better, well perhaps their ideas on the subject are but locally they've been pretty silent. You don't hear Dyer talking up commuter rail. Corrine Brown-Waite or whomever doesn't mention high speed rail that I know of. And that would be her issue, since her district stretches from Orlando to near Jacksonville. I haven't seen much improvement in the local or statewide mass transit situation (except perhaps Miami and they are struggling also-but at least they have a plan and are moving forward), and what I have heard has been mostly talk. Where is the money for these projects? Where is the R-O-W? Why isn't the city demanding it now? Or are we all going to live densely along existing CSX tracks?

[spenser1058]

Although I'm proud to be a Democrat and generally agree the Republicans tend to be clueless on urban issues, I do have to give credit where credit is due. As already mentioned, John Mica stands head and shoulders above the rest hereabouts on transit (I hate his stance on social issues, but thanks to his efforts on transportation he is probably one of the few Republicans I could ever vote for).

Serious talk on transit actually got going in the 80s with Orange County Commissioner Lou Treadway, another Republican who was one of the few with the county back then who got it. Ironically, Mayor Bill Frederick, then a Democrat and generally considered the father of modern Orlando, sabotaged Treadway's efforts to get transit going by going whole-hog for parking garage construction downtown (it is generally considered wise to jump-start rail to not have enough parking at the destination).

And, of course, Republican Mayor Glenda Hood tried to keep the light rail that Mica managed to steer toward Orlando with the help of lots of $$$ from the Clinton administration even after the know-nothing class on the county commission (Clarence Hoenstine, Ted Edwards, a milquetoast Mel Martinez - all Republicans, and Bob Sindler - a true DINO), let it die due to whining from the Harris Rosen crowd down south and the Winter Park elitists to the north. Also, mega-Dem fundraiser John Morgan did his best to shoot it down because he didn't want "those people" who would ride rail down on I-Drive, although one wonders who he thinks makes the beds and washes the dishes down there.

[neon9]

Mel Martinez

I forgot about him. I think I had just moved here when they killed that deal. I wish I could go back and find some old quotes of him from the time.

[bulldogger]

Gov Bush wants commuter and high speed rail? You could have fooled me. He fought both, and mostly mentioned moving CSX traffic when he showed up here to 'introduce' commuter rail. I know he's been quoted as saying that high speed rail is a waste of money, a 'boondoggle'.

Who mentioned HSR? You can say that he didn't back the commuter rail in Central Florida, but he did. Moving CSX traffic so that commuter trains could use the tracks during peak hours is the only way that it could be done with the amount of funds being allocated at this time. This area is also a post-car era growth city and is not fond nor used to the idea of using trains. Even though this is going to cost a lot of money, you have to look at this first stretch of commuter rail as a test for us. When Bush first attacked the HSR which the voters asked for, I felt like this was one of the worst things that could happen in Florida's future growth. Then, after thinking about this, I also started to see that we are not quite ready for HSR in Florida. If Orlando is to be the hub of this great rail network, which I believe wholeheartedly that it should, there must be a way of transporting passengers to business and tourist destinations once here. This also holds true of other areas of the state that the HSR would stop. The only place you can get around once you have arrived is Miami. Tampa is talking about commuter rail in their area. Miami is expanding theirs even further. Orlando is just getting started. Jacksonville needs to continue their efforts. Once these areas have ways to get around other than hailing a taxi, which isn't something you can readily do on any street in downtown Orlando other than Friday night at Church Street, then we will be ready for HSR in Florida. I would love to see all of this happen all at once, but tax is a curse word in Florida and without additional tax revenue, this won't happen yet. YET.

[illliterate02]

Who mentioned HSR? You can say that he didn't back the commuter rail in Central Florida, but he did. Moving CSX traffic so that commuter trains could use the tracks during peak hours is the only way that it could be done with the amount of funds being allocated at this time. This area is also a post-car era growth city and is not fond nor used to the idea of using trains. Even though this is going to cost a lot of money, you have to look at this first stretch of commuter rail as a test for us. When Bush first attacked the HSR which the voters asked for, I felt like this was one of the worst things that could happen in Florida's future growth. Then, after thinking about this, I also started to see that we are not quite ready for HSR in Florida. If Orlando is to be the hub of this great rail network, which I believe wholeheartedly that it should, there must be a way of transporting passengers to business and tourist destinations once here. This also holds true of other areas of the state that the HSR would stop. The only place you can get around once you have arrived is Miami. Tampa is talking about commuter rail in their area. Miami is expanding theirs even further. Orlando is just getting started. Jacksonville needs to continue their efforts. Once these areas have ways to get around other than hailing a taxi, which isn't something you can readily do on any street in downtown Orlando other than Friday night at Church Street, then we will be ready for HSR in Florida. I would love to see all of this happen all at once, but tax is a curse word in Florida and without additional tax revenue, this won't happen yet. YET.

I think the criticism comes from the fact that they have waited to build things after the relevance of them has passed. If we have built the HSR 10 years ago... well it would still be underconstruiction, but we would have growth that was trying to accomidate that. We would also have more local oppurtunities to expand our transporational methods. Now, we are going to use a Commuter Rail (which really wont serve a lot of people) in a place that has just been reinforced by car culture forever. The Commuter Rail is not really going to aleviate the problem, its just a symbol to say "we did something." I love it, but I am totally sure that it is going to be a failure. It runs through suburban america and their SUV's, to downtown (where I am sure most people that work there are not going to ride the train) to south orlando where people work in the theme parks anyways. I am really critical of this because it doesnt seem like a real alternative or even that the government of Florida wants a real alternative. If we did push HSR and we did push light rail, those seem like alternatives and if the government made the initiative, then it could have worked. The lack of progression in Florida is totally killing me. We have the oppurtunity to grow smartly and preserve our beautiful state, yet no one cares... as long as they get a house with a yard and 5 yrs later they move back to NY because they miss the city lifestyle.... and the train. If you build it they will come, dont just switch "it" for the step son of the original intention. Commuter rail should have been operational 20 years ago.

[GregoryMCSE]

Well said. Commuter rail might have had a chance... if it actually connected to stations where there was other mass transit (i.e. light rail) that people most would actually ride (not busses). I am thinking of Boston as I write this; their system includes four subway lines, and thirteen commuter rail lines... to go along with busses. I think if mass transit is expansive enough and reaches enough place that people actually need to go to... (jobs, airport, hospital, and neighborhoods) growth would fill in around it. But I do not see growth filling in along a commuter rail line that connects to bus lines....

[neon9]

Who mentioned HSR? You can say that he didn't back the commuter rail in Central Florida, but he did. Moving CSX traffic so that commuter trains could use the tracks during peak hours is the only way that it could be done with the amount of funds being allocated at this time. This area is also a post-car era growth city and is not fond nor used to the idea of using trains. Even though this is going to cost a lot of money, you have to look at this first stretch of commuter rail as a test for us. When Bush first attacked the HSR which the voters asked for, I felt like this was one of the worst things that could happen in Florida's future growth. Then, after thinking about this, I also started to see that we are not quite ready for HSR in Florida. If Orlando is to be the hub of this great rail network, which I believe wholeheartedly that it should, there must be a way of transporting passengers to business and tourist destinations once here. This also holds true of other areas of the state that the HSR would stop. The only place you can get around once you have arrived is Miami. Tampa is talking about commuter rail in their area. Miami is expanding theirs even further. Orlando is just getting started. Jacksonville needs to continue their efforts. Once these areas have ways to get around other than hailing a taxi, which isn't something you can readily do on any street in downtown Orlando other than Friday night at Church Street, then we will be ready for HSR in Florida. I would love to see all of this happen all at once, but tax is a curse word in Florida and without additional tax revenue, this won't happen yet. YET.

Well ok I kind of threw HSR in there myself I guess. But his disdain for it is well known and I couldn't help but notice that mostly he just spoke of the benefit of moving CSX trains when he rode in on the rail car.... sad thing is he's probably right, at least at first. I haven't heard any grand plans for anything in the future. Of course that's not just his fault and that was part of the point I was trying to make. I agree with you, to make HSR work you need someway to go to your final destination and you can't assume people can walk (although the airport seems to do just fine and you can put a train station a lot closer to downtown and other development, unlike an airport). I don't know if anyone was considering commuter/light rail 20 years ago, but I do know we could be building a HSR network now, which if I'm not mistaken was to run from Tampa to Orlando first. Even that short leg would surely still be under construction-look how long it took them to 3 lane I-4 the same distance...and it's still not 100%. Again, they're out there working anyway but I'm sure no planning went into a future train line-there was no funding for it. Yet a few million planning now could save billions later.

And, of course we could be working on light rail right now as well here in Orlando....but seems property prices have gone thru the roof since that idea got booted! (Along with everything else, steel, copper, et al-the only thing is asphalt prices have increased more than any of those)

Edited November 18, 2006 by neon9

[neon9]

Now this is coming from someone who is not from the area, and only has visited for a week at a time. But it seems to me that people are making a lot of excuses of why HSR won't work, without really thinking about how to make it work and what to make it work for.

You already have the rail line. True, not in shape for HSR, but the track is there. You have three strong cities along the route - Tampa, Orlando, and Miami, and each citie's downtown is reasonably close to the rail line. Both Miami and Orlando's airport are reasonable close to the line as well.

Yes you need to make connections still. For some a simple people mover would work wonders. And to be honest, with the width of your streets and open medians you could easilly fit at least a true BRT route down some of them, if not a regular streetcar line. But you already have more shuttles and mini-buses than any place else on this planet, if you have an established rail station all you need to do is connect to those. As far as the outer stations, you can;'t say you don't have enough room to create parking.

You have a large number of tourists and elderly who really aren't that keen on driving, and probably only trying to get to one or two key places. Even if they don't have a connection to everywhere, they can get to the important places (except WDW) and if they want anything more they can rent a car at the station instead of the airport.

There already is a near-high-speed train available that would be FRA compatible. It would not be too cheap, made by Talgo, and is a diesel. It is something you can put into place NOW, and upgrade the lines as you go and the service gets going.

I personally don't think we need a 150 mph maglev or regular train, really as long as it goes as fast as or a little faster than a car, probably about what you're describing, I think it would be fine. My test would be Orlando to Miami travel time-if it takes as long or shorter than taking a plane, then it should be competitive. And these days that's about 3 hours-1 in the airport, 1 in the plane, and 1 more to get off and get your bags.

I would say it should be electric but I'll take what we can get at this point. It can be electrified later. A slower train would also probably be better for freight-which takes more trucks off the road. A higher speed train has to worry more about weight, balance and 'too-fast' delivery might command a premium. If Greyhound can make a nice little side business out of shipping stuff on it's buses in the cargo area, then our trains ought to be able to do that also.

Hey, a TGV type train would be great but there is such a thing as diminishing returns, i.e. getting less benefit for increasing costs. Do we really need to get to Tampa 20 minutes quicker for a few extra billion? Considering the distances involved 100 mph tops is probably fine.

[C_C_Planner]

Gov Bush wants commuter and high speed rail? You could have fooled me. He fought both, and mostly mentioned moving CSX traffic when he showed up here to 'introduce' commuter rail. I know he's been quoted as saying that high speed rail is a waste of money, a 'boondoggle'.

In general, I think it's safe to say most republicans do not want or like mass transit. If this is not the case then it's news to me. Of course, some are far sighted enough to realize we can't ever build enough highways to move all our sprawled populace quickly, or that the lower classes actually need public or in fact subsidized transportation to get to their jobs.

Hell, if you consider how much taxpayer money is poured into the state DOT's and the FHA and all the other road pavers and maintainers, personal vehicle transportation has got to be the most subsidized of them all, except perhaps air travel-per passenger anyway. Every mile of 2 lane roadway costs about a million these days, including land, and at least 50k a year to maintain (esp. if you include a resurfacing every 10 years or so).

Mica is the former I think, since he's also proposed toll lanes on I-4, a reasonable idea for those who need to get somewhere quickly. As far as democrats being much better, well perhaps their ideas on the subject are but locally they've been pretty silent. You don't hear Dyer talking up commuter rail. Corrine Brown-Waite or whomever doesn't mention high speed rail that I know of. And that would be her issue, since her district stretches from Orlando to near Jacksonville. I haven't seen much improvement in the local or statewide mass transit situation (except perhaps Miami and they are struggling also-but at least they have a plan and are moving forward), and what I have heard has been mostly talk. Where is the money for these projects? Where is the R-O-W? Why isn't the city demanding it now? Or are we all going to live densely along existing CSX tracks?

Actually John Mica is adamantly opposed to toll lanes on I-4. He was successful in adding language to the last 6-year transportation bill that specifically prohibits toll lanes on the interstate in Orlando.

[neon9]

Actually John Mica is adamantly opposed to toll lanes on I-4. He was successful in adding language to the last 6-year transportation bill that specifically prohibits toll lanes on the interstate in Orlando.

Thanks for the correction. I thought he had offered that idea, maybe that was part of the Mobility 20/20 plan that got axed.

Sometimes I think it's just Doug Gutzlow and the 'Ax the Tax' fools who think we shouldn't have to pay for anything, it should just magically fall out of the sky and someone should volunteer to maintain it.

Of course, seeing how well the quasi-governmental toll agency around here has worked so far in spending our toll money, I think people are even less likely to accept toll lanes on otherwise free interstates now....

[sunshine]

Municipalities try to maximize rail's impact

Cities explore commercial, residential development around stations.

Orlando Business Journal - November 24, 2006by Jill KruegerStaff Writer

http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/sto...4603600^1380254

[JRS1]

that is a very encouraging article. lots of combined civic efforts to take advantage of the new stations.

[spenser1058]

Interesting article in the December FL Trend regarding the nuts and bolts of the deal with CSX for commuter rail (you may have to register to view it, but it's free):

http://www.floridatrend.com/issue/default.asp?a=6024&s=2

Edited December 3, 2006 by spenser1058

[bulldogger]

FYI...

Winter Park is holding a meeting (there was one on Monday as well) on Thursday, December 7th from 6:30pm to 8:30pm at the City Commission Chambers located in City Hall at 401 Park Avenue South.

Commuter Rail Public Information Sessions

Residents are encouraged to attend and give written input. Forms will be provided at each session for attendees to submit written questions and comments.

For more information, please call 407-599-3285.

----------------------------------

Got this info in a card from the city.

[bic]

Winter Park puts brakes on rail decision

City commissioners wait to determine whether to put the vote to residents.

WINTER PARK -- Commissioners held off Monday deciding whether to ask voters if they want a commuter-rail station in the city's picturesque downtown.

Instead, they elected to wait until another meeting, this one in January, so they could review a task force's final report on the controversial issue.

But a petition drive by residents to put the issue on the ballot could force their hand.

Mayor David Strong had hoped to move things along, mainly to comply with a timetable laid out by the Florida Department of Transportation and Orange County.

"We're going to be caught in a bind if this citizens' initiative comes forward," Strong said.

Read More at OrlandoSentinel.com

[bulldogger]

This may be a battle between the businesses on Park Avenue vs. the residents of the Via's.

It makes no sense for them to have the trains go through every hour, but not have a stop. As if they don't already have an Amtrak stop in their precious little park.

Edited December 12, 2006 by bulldogger

[sunshine]

Gosh, Winter Park again...

I think they should just vote on building a wall around the city and restrict people from going in there unless they have a passport.

[FLClarkKent]

Gosh, Winter Park again...

I think they should just vote on building a wall around the city and restrict people from going in there unless they have a passport.

And a credit check.

[mrh3]

Winter Park puts brakes on rail decision

City commissioners wait to determine whether to put the vote to residents.

WINTER PARK -- Commissioners held off Monday deciding whether to ask voters if they want a commuter-rail station in the city's picturesque downtown.

Instead, they elected to wait until another meeting, this one in January, so they could review a task force's final report on the controversial issue.

But a petition drive by residents to put the issue on the ballot could force their hand.

Mayor David Strong had hoped to move things along, mainly to comply with a timetable laid out by the Florida Department of Transportation and Orange County.

"We're going to be caught in a bind if this citizens' initiative comes forward," Strong said.

Read More at OrlandoSentinel.com

What kind of leverage does the state have in a situation like this?

[RedStar25]

I dont see why winter park wouldnt want this. Wouldnt it been a boom for bussines on park ave?