SunRail

[spenser1058]

This, unfortunately, is a small but wealthy and very influential group of Winter Parkers who are deep in the throes of NIMBY-ism. The stop would indeed be a good one for Park Avenue merchants, and also helpful to lower-to-middle income folks west of the railroad tracks.

Alas, this same group of affluents along N. Park helped to shoot down light rail. Orange County has already offered to pay 1/3 of the cost and the Sentinel reports they might be persuaded to cover up to 1/2, so money is hardly the real issue.

Winter Park's interference with transportation for the region goes all the way back to forcing the path of I4 to be shifted west in the early 60s (and the ensuing statute being used by Edgewood to doom the Central Connector in the 90s - Edgewood is threatening to use it again to quash commuter rail but the sense I get is that it won't work in this case).

My question is whether a failure to have a stop in WP is any sort of deal-breaker in this instance. If not, it will be a Pyrrhic victory for our rich NIMBYs as they'll still have the trains going through but no access to the system. I had hoped the fact that commuter rail is accompanied by the removal of many freight trains daily would have assuaged the ire of this group, but apparently they are used to having their cake and eating it too.

[gibby]

This, unfortunately, is a small but wealthy and very influential group of Winter Parkers who are deep in the throes of NIMBY-ism. The stop would indeed be a good one for Park Avenue merchants, and also helpful to lower-to-middle income folks west of the railroad tracks.

Alas, this same group of affluents along N. Park helped to shoot down light rail. Orange County has already offered to pay 1/3 of the cost and the Sentinel reports they might be persuaded to cover up to 1/2, so money is hardly the real issue.

Winter Park's interference with transportation for the region goes all the way back to forcing the path of I4 to be shifted west in the early 60s (and the ensuing statute being used by Edgewood to doom the Central Connector in the 90s - Edgewood is threatening to use it again to quash commuter rail but the sense I get is that it won't work in this case).

My question is whether a failure to have a stop in WP is any sort of deal-breaker in this instance. If not, it will be a Pyrrhic victory for our rich NIMBYs as they'll still have the trains going through but no access to the system. I had hoped the fact that commuter rail is accompanied by the removal of many freight trains daily would have assuaged the ire of this group, but apparently they are used to having their cake and eating it too.

I agree completely. Can you give some more background on the statute that Edgewood used to block the Central Connector? I have always hoped that this road could still be built to make travel to/from the airport more reasonable for downtown residents/businesses.

[spenser1058]

Essentially, the statue requires the agreement of local jurisdictions for right of way purchases. Edgewood refused to cooperate and the Central Connector was deleted from OOCEA's future plans. Ironically, in this case it might work out well. With no plausible way to access OIA from downtown and with downtown poised to grow significantly, the only answer may be some sort of rail component.

In my own case, I, like many of my fellow city dwellers, always avoided driving to Hartsfield in Atlanta, as it was much easier (not to mention cheaper since I didn't have to worry about parking) just to use MARTA rail.

An aside on the rerouting of I4 through Winter Park - WP's case was strongly helped by the fact a state office building had just recently been completed along the original path (the McCarty SOB at Denning and Morse). Land along the original path later was used for the Winter Park Mall as well. I have always wondered, however, had the original path been selected, whether some of the scruffier/sprawl-pocked parts of WP might have been avoided (particularly along Fairbanks between Orlando Ave and the rerouted interstate).

[Dale]

What kind of leverage does the state have in a situation like this?

Is your question can the state force Winter Park residents to pay for a station they don't want ?

[prahaboheme]

Of course they can. The real question though, can a few WP residents kill a project for the whole region?

[GregoryMCSE]

Of course they can. The real question though, can a few WP residents kill a project for the whole region?

I had a lady bring the petition to allow Winter Park's voters to decide on the station to my door yesterday. I signed it because I believe the voters should have the right to decide on the station. After all it is our tax dollars and it is a very permenant and expensive decision. Having said all of that, I will vote for the Winter Park station.

I spoke with the petition lady and she said that they already have enough signatures on the petition to force a vote. She admitted the petitioners are ANTI train station; but she said they do want the commuter train to succeed and she belives in the necessity and viability of the commuter train. She said their problem with the train is all of the busses that would run through Winter Park to get the train commuters from the station to their final destination.

[sunshine]

If she show up in my doorstep, I would tell her, "Maan, please dont waste anymore of the time and tax money to force a vote, we can use that to pay for the train station." but i dont live in Winter Park.

[bulldogger]

I had a lady bring the petition to allow Winter Park's voters to decide on the station to my door yesterday. I signed it because I believe the voters should have the right to decide on the station. After all it is our tax dollars and it is a very permenant and expensive decision. Having said all of that, I will vote for the Winter Park station.

I spoke with the petition lady and she said that they already have enough signatures on the petition to force a vote. She admitted the petitioners are ANTI train station; but she said they do want the commuter train to succeed and she belives in the necessity and viability of the commuter train. She said their problem with the train is all of the busses that would run through Winter Park to get the train commuters from the station to their final destination.

I read that the city commission (this is at least 6 months ago) would only allow the station if a bus station was NOT a component along the park. Of course, this wouldn't stop busses from running along the park anyway.

[spenser1058]

My question is not whether they can force the station, but rather if Winter Park opts out and the train just rolls from Maitland to FL Hospital whether that would stop the whole deal. As someone who lives downtown but goes to Park Ave. frequently, I would love to have this but, if not, I still would like the train for access to Volusia. Of course, Amtrak goes from Sligh to Central Park several times a day - wonder how much a ticket is to go just one stop?

[JRS1]

If she show up in my doorstep, I would tell her, "Maan, please dont waste anymore of the time and tax money to force a vote, we can use that to pay for the train station." but i dont live in Winter Park.

I do. and now I'm pissed that these blowhards are looking to kill this deal. I am going to politic everyone I know in my neighborhood to vote "yes" for the train.

[Dale]

Of course they can. The real question though, can a few WP residents kill a project for the whole region?

You are saying that the state can force the residents of Winter park to finance a station they don't want ? I very much doubt it.

Now, to the question you've posed, I haven't heard any suggestion that the project needs a station in WP, that the entire system hinges on a WP station.

[prahaboheme]

Not that I feel it necessary to state the obvious, Dale: regional projects such as these always hinge on the support of its major players whether it is suggested or not.

[neon9]

I read that the city commission (this is at least 6 months ago) would only allow the station if a bus station was NOT a component along the park. Of course, this wouldn't stop busses from running along the park anyway.

It's strange a park of this size doesn't already have a bus stop there. Surely one goes to the train station now?

[Dale]

Not that I feel it necessary to state the obvious, Dale: regional projects such as these always hinge on the support of its major players whether it is suggested or not.

It's a four-county effort. I do not know that it's necessary to build a station in downtown Winter Park for the project to proceed. If that is the case, then the movers and shakers were incredibly naive.

[pip]

It's a four-county effort. I do not know that it's necessary to build a station in downtown Winter Park for the project to proceed. If that is the case, then the movers and shakers were incredibly naive.

Well it would be a great stop if a station was there, and a real shame if its not. It would be one a very few stops that take you to the middle of a pedestrian area of shopping and restaurants. This whole thing reminds me of Georgetown in DC opting out of the Metro. But that didnt stop shuttle buses from running there from Dupont Circle and other metro stops for just a $1. This idea of keeping people out just seems ridiculous to me.

Edited December 13, 2006 by pip

[GregoryMCSE]

Well it would be a great stop if a station was there, and a real shame if its not. It would be one a very few stops that take you to the middle of a pedestrian area of shopping and restaurants. This whole thing reminds me of Georgetown in DC opting out of the Metro. But that didnt stop shuttle buses from running there from Dupont Circle and other metro stops for just a $1. This idea of keeping people out just seems ridiculous to me.

I say blow the whistle and speed the train up as it blows through Winter Park.... screw em....

[Dale]

Well it would be a great stop if a station was there, and a real shame if its not. It would be one a very few stops that take you to the middle of a pedestrian area of shopping and restaurants. This whole thing reminds me of Georgetown in DC opting out of the Metro. But that didnt stop shuttle buses from running there from Dupont Circle and other metro stops for just a $1. This idea of keeping people out just seems ridiculous to me.

I don't disagree with that at all. It would be a great stop, probably a boon for Winter Park.

[mrh3]

I have made this comment before, but during the early 20th century in Philadelphia, New York and Chicago, some of the wealthiest suburbs were built because the wealthy wanted out of the city, but wanted a reasonable commute. Hence, Mainline Philadelphia Suburbs, North Shore Chicago Suburbs, and Westchester Co. in New York. The home values in these cities would dwarf anything that anyone in Winter Park feels they are protecting. The history of these places were completely influenced by the development of the rail line and in no way is there a detraction or loss of value due to proximity to mass transit. As a New Yorker, I can understand if they wanted to rip up the ground and put in a subway stop, but the demogrraphics of Metro-North, LIRR, CAltrain, Metra, or Penn RR, users is totally different. Someone should inform these people and tell them to get a grip.

Main Line History

[facilities man]

The home values in these cities would dwarf anything that anyone in Winter Park feels they are protecting. Main Line History

Have you ever been to Winter Park? Home prices are not cheap. $1,000,000 for a well located nice condo is not unusual. There are plenty of multi million dollar properties.

[mrh3]

Have you ever been to Winter Park? Home prices are not cheap. $1,000,000 for a well located nice condo is not unusual. There are plenty of multi million dollar properties.

I grew up in SW Orlando and I have been to Winter Park many times. Anyway, this is the most timely accurate information I could find:

-Winter Park, FL (West) $396,295 Median Home Value

-Lake Forest, IL $735,856 Median Home Value

-Greenwich, CT $1.2MM Median Home Value

-Rye, New York $1.4 MM Median Home Value

Commuter rail is in the central business district of every single one of the towns listed above except Winter Park. These town are home to very affluent professionals in finance/entertainment/media and many of them commute daily via mass transit to their jobs. If anything, the presence of rail enhances the appeal of these towns. Time is money to rich people and commuter rail helps them save both.

*All this data was found via an appraising website so isn't scientific. It was merely meant to add some perspective.

Edited December 14, 2006 by mrh3

[JRS1]

Winter Park is an actual city with lower income neighborhoods within the city limits. You don't find that in Northbrook, IL, or other similar suburbs in other large cities, which are pure suburbs. Orlando's suburbs are actual cities. What's the median price in Celebration, for example? That's a pure PUD suburb that's all new and all expensive.

that list, however informative, is an apples to oranges list.

another example could be Coral Gables or Bal Harbour or Palm Beach or Boca Raton.

Edited December 14, 2006 by JRS1

[mrh3]

Winter Park is an actual city with lower income neighborhoods within the city limits. You don't find that in Northbrook, IL, or other similar suburbs in other large cities, which are pure suburbs. Orlando's suburbs are actual cities. What's the median price in Celebration, for example? That's a pure PUD suburb that's all new and all expensive.

that list, however informative, is an apples to oranges list.

another example could be Coral Gables or Bal Harbour or Palm Beach or Boca Raton.

JRS1 if that's the case, then why don't the lower income people stand up for commuter rail access themselves? If the high income individuals were actually in the minority as you seem to be implying the assessment of apples to oranges would be correct. I don't believe that there is any difference between the residential profile of Winter Park, FL vs. any of the cities I mentioned.

[prahaboheme]

Commuter rail is in the central business district of every single one of the towns listed above except Winter Park. These town are home to very affluent professionals in finance/entertainment/media and many of them commute daily via mass transit to their jobs. If anything, the presence of rail enhances the appeal of these towns. Time is money to rich people and commuter rail helps them save both.

Amen! Boston's western suburbs are its wealthiest (Wellesley, Weston, Southboro) and also get the heaviest number of commuters. This enhances the appeal of these places. Lets face it, the members of this forum are in a vast minority when one considers the average mindset of the Floridian with regards to urban development. This kind of resistance is a great example.

[gibby]

They put one of the beams on the 408-I4 interchange today/tonight. Wow, it's pretty high up there. Looks really cool.

[bulldogger]

PCL is kicking a$$ in downtown. They are really moving on this and 55W.