SunRail

[JRS1]

JRS1 if that's the case, then why don't the lower income people stand up for commuter rail access themselves? If the high income individuals were actually in the minority as you seem to be implying the assessment of apples to oranges would be correct. I don't believe that there is any difference between the residential profile of Winter Park, FL vs. any of the cities I mentioned.

my point was that WP had just as good neighborhoods and real estate as those other suburbs mentioned, but the fact that it is a real city with lower income neighborhoods is what has lowered its numbers in that report.

as for the lower income people who live there, well: they either can't read (to know what's going on w/ commuter rail; or, they don't know what "commuter rail" means; or, they can still collect a welfare or unemployment check without using a train which raises their taxes. (I'm generalizing of course).

[corpkid]

Kind of O/T, but does anyone have information on the expansion of the Lymmo system? I keep hearing they are working on extending that over to the T/P area and further north & south -- There's supposed to be a stop right on "Condo Corridor" (aka S. Eola Dr.). That would be awesome for me living in Eola South! What is taking so long for this? It's not like they have to build anything, right?

[gibby]

Wow, I started doing some research on this exact issue a few days ago but never got too far. It is supposed to go down Church Street but I had heard talk of it being on Central. I went to a Downtown Development type luncheon on Thursday and one of their slides showed it on Church, which is great. The Lymmo service has its own dedicated lanes, so there would be considerable construction involved. They should do this soon. There will be a good amount of units coming on-line pretty soon.

[bulldogger]

Wow, I started doing some research on this exact issue a few days ago but never got too far. It is supposed to go down Church Street but I had heard talk of it being on Central. I went to a Downtown Development type luncheon on Thursday and one of their slides showed it on Church, which is great. The Lymmo service has its own dedicated lanes, so there would be considerable construction involved. They should do this soon. There will be a good amount of units coming on-line pretty soon.

Last time I checked, this is years from happening. I don't think you will see this until the Citrus Bowl renovation and new arena are completed.

[mrh3]

my point was that WP had just as good neighborhoods and real estate as those other suburbs mentioned, but the fact that it is a real city with lower income neighborhoods is what has lowered its numbers in that report.

as for the lower income people who live there, well: they either can't read (to know what's going on w/ commuter rail; or, they don't know what "commuter rail" means; or, they can still collect a welfare or unemployment check without using a train which raises their taxes. (I'm generalizing of course).

JRS1, I reviewed the information regarding median home values and made some astounding discoveries. First of all, the per capita income in Winter Park is only 20% above the median income of Orange County. The majority of the towns I mentioned earlier have per capita incomes that are anywhere from 100% to 300% greater than their metro area incomes. The highest I found in Orlando was in Windermere with 100% greater than the metro average. Anyway, JRS1 what I think you meant is there there is greater socioeconomic diversity in Winter Park than these other cities which brings the averages down. Rather than say, Windermere which has no socioeconomic diveristy. I still think that a public awareness campaign can change the hearts and minds of WP residents!

[sunshine]

Tiger Wood must have mess up the median income curve..oh waits, he doesnt live there anymore. Blame the magic players...

[JRS1]

JRS1, I reviewed the information regarding median home values and made some astounding discoveries. First of all, the per capita income in Winter Park is only 20% above the median income of Orange County. The majority of the towns I mentioned earlier have per capita incomes that are anywhere from 100% to 300% greater than their metro area incomes. The highest I found in Orlando was in Windermere with 100% greater than the metro average. Anyway, JRS1 what I think you meant is there there is greater socioeconomic diversity in Winter Park than these other cities which brings the averages down. Rather than say, Windermere which has no socioeconomic diveristy. I still think that a public awareness campaign can change the hearts and minds of WP residents!

exactly. public awareness campaign-- yes.

as for commuters and the many buses issue, who would commute into DT WP and take a bus? most of the commuters would go straight to DT ORL. And if you liked in Deltona and commuted to WP, it would be to work somewhere in that city center-- maybe near 17/92 and Orange, Fairbanks, and Lee Rd. Yeah, buses would be needed.

[mrh3]

exactly. public awareness campaign-- yes.

as for commuters and the many buses issue, who would commute into DT WP and take a bus? most of the commuters would go straight to DT ORL. And if you liked in Deltona and commuted to WP, it would be to work somewhere in that city center-- maybe near 17/92 and Orange, Fairbanks, and Lee Rd. Yeah, buses would be needed.

I think that the most likely candidates would be those that lived/worked within a 15 minute walk to the train station. I could be wrong, but that is the radius of most TOD these days. (Transit Oriented Development). Most of those wealthier towns don't have bus service anyway. Also, those visiting the Winter Park Art Festival those coming to Rollins for graduations would use the service. If anything, it would provide a great alternative to driving, which is what commuter rail is supposed to do.

Edited December 18, 2006 by mrh3

[Dale]

I just don't see the station happening for Winter Park.

[spenser1058]

If Winter Park initially passes, I am not terribly concerned. With most rail projects that have been planned effectively, what happens is that once people see they have missed out on some convenience, they begin to clamor for it. That certainly was the case with MARTA rail in Atlanta.

What I have not yet seen is what sort of flexibility commuter rail will initially have - that is, will they be able to run it for special events and the like? Also, will folks from outside WP put enough pressure on Park Avenue merchants and the folks who put on the Art Festival that they begin to take as strong a stance pro-rail as the NIMBYs are against?

Will Rollins students find it so useful that the College gets involved? Certainly with light rail, I could see all those things happening. Not so sure yet with commuter rail. Once I4 is all torn up in 2009, however, we may see a lot of folks in WP screaming for access <g>.

[MAntoniazzi]

If Winter Park initially passes, I am not terribly concerned. With most rail projects that have been planned effectively, what happens is that once people see they have missed out on some convenience, they begin to clamor for it. That certainly was the case with MARTA rail in Atlanta.

What I have not yet seen is what sort of flexibility commuter rail will initially have - that is, will they be able to run it for special events and the like? Also, will folks from outside WP put enough pressure on Park Avenue merchants and the folks who put on the Art Festival that they begin to take as strong a stance pro-rail as the NIMBYs are against?

Will Rollins students find it so useful that the College gets involved? Certainly with light rail, I could see all those things happening. Not so sure yet with commuter rail. Once I4 is all torn up in 2009, however, we may see a lot of folks in WP screaming for access <g>.

Students could live downtown and go to rollins. that would be fun. eeehhh i already graduated! Go KNIGHTS

[Migman]

Who's down for bum-rushing WP city hall during the January council meeting?

[demon]

Who's down for bum-rushing WP city hall during the January council meeting?

I don't think they allow bums in Winter Park......

[Dale]

Only bums with beacon credit scores of 625 or higher.

[neon9]

I just don't see the station happening for Winter Park.

I've seen several letters to the paper already from the Winter Park NIMBY's responding to the papers endorsement of a Winter Park station. There was one today bemoaning the 30 or 40 dollars a year each resident might have to pay at some future point to 'subsidize service to UCF and Deltona' et al. They would rather waste a few more years and a few more million for more studies.

[illliterate02]

I've seen several letters to the paper already from the Winter Park NIMBY's responding to the papers endorsement of a Winter Park station. There was one today bemoaning the 30 or 40 dollars a year each resident might have to pay at some future point to 'subsidize service to UCF and Deltona' et al. They would rather waste a few more years and a few more million for more studies.

Sooner or later they will be paying that on other services... or they will be sitting in traffic and complaining why the situation for the roads isnt better. I cant stand these small minded people

[WeNeed2Progress]

Sooner or later they will be paying that on other services... or they will be sitting in traffic and complaining why the situation for the roads isnt better. I cant stand these small minded people

The "here and now" and "me, my, I" people... yeah. Hence many of Central Florida's growing problems.

[mrh3]

If I were a resident of Winter Park or even a current Central Florida resident, I would personally spearhead a fund raising effort to get a public awareness campaign going that would change the opinion of WP residents. Someone should talk to Mica. He is now the top Republican on the House Transportation Committee. Call your congress people folks!

Edited December 19, 2006 by mrh3

[eastbank]

If I were a resident of Winter Park or even a current Central Florida resident, I would personally spearhead a fund raising effort to get a public awareness campaign going that would change the opinion of WP residents. Someone should talk to Mica. He is now the top Republican on the House Transportation Committee. Call your congress people folks!

The most amusing thing about pro-development, non-WP residents, is that they have this sanctimonious attitude that theirs is the correct position, not only for themselves and Orange County, but for Winter Park. Its as if these self-appointed experts think they know better and know more than the people that ACTUALLY live in this city 24/7/365 and pay taxes.

This condescending attitude won't play well with the people you're trying to "educate" (brainwash?).

But you're welcome to try and come into town as an outsider and spend loads of $$ on money to try and convince us to vote for something YOU want. Kind of how Hal Kantor and Doug Guetzloe, Orlando's biggest sleazes, thought they could "educate" us with illegal campaign advertisements. We, the ignorant "NIMBY" WP'ers, were just ignorant and couldn't see what a great boon to our town the Carlyle would have been!

Well, you know the upshot of that story by now (or should). Kip Marchman got fired. Onewinterpark came to prominence. And the voting residents of WP got an early Xmas present: the Carllyle is dead!! This is democracy in action, and the will of the residents triumphing over greedy, pushy, unethical developers and pressure from outside sources.

WP's desire to preserve its cherished park space, and not pave over it for a rail station for non-residents, will not 'KILL' the rail project. IF you're upset you won't be able to ride a train to our shopping district, you have the option of driving there, as in the past, or not coming at all. We'll find some way to carry on, so don't worry too much about us or the holy rail project.

Rail will be built, and the residents will decide if the impact on OUR city is acceptable or not.

Of the two upcoming votes, I will vote FOR allowing the city to pay $$ for a rail station, but I will vote AGAINST placing such a station anywhere near Central Park. We didn't fight long and hard to kill the Carlyle so that it can be replaced by a concrete commuter park'n'ride hell.

[mrh3]

The most amusing thing about pro-development, non-WP residents, is that they have this sanctimonious attitude that theirs is the correct position, not only for themselves and Orange County, but for Winter Park. Its as if these self-appointed experts think they know better and know more than the people that ACTUALLY live in this city 24/7/365 and pay taxes.

This condescending attitude won't play well with the people you're trying to "educate" (brainwash?).

But you're welcome to try and come into town as an outsider and spend loads of $$ on money to try and convince us to vote for something YOU want. Kind of how Hal Kantor and Doug Guetzloe, Orlando's biggest sleazes, thought they could "educate" us with illegal campaign advertisements. We, the ignorant "NIMBY" WP'ers, were just ignorant and couldn't see what a great boon to our town the Carlyle would have been!

Well, you know the upshot of that story by now (or should). Kip Marchman got fired. Onewinterpark came to prominence. And the voting residents of WP got an early Xmas present: the Carllyle is dead!! This is democracy in action, and the will of the residents triumphing over greedy, pushy, unethical developers and pressure from outside sources.

WP's desire to preserve its cherished park space, and not pave over it for a rail station for non-residents, will not 'KILL' the rail project. IF you're upset you won't be able to ride a train to our shopping district, you have the option of driving there, as in the past, or not coming at all. We'll find some way to carry on, so don't worry too much about us or the holy rail project.

Rail will be built, and the residents will decide if the impact on OUR city is acceptable or not.

Of the two upcoming votes, I will vote FOR allowing the city to pay $$ for a rail station, but I will vote AGAINST placing such a station anywhere near Central Park. We didn't fight long and hard to kill the Carlyle so that it can be replaced by a concrete commuter park'n'ride hell.

Eastbank, I appreciate the direct candor and understand your position as a resident of WP and certainly your aversion to a concrete commuter rail park and ride. If that is the overwhelming concerning, this is my first time hearing of it. With regard to being and "outsider" and using an "expert" opinion, I think that what this centers around is transportation alternatives that will benefit those beyond the borders of WP.

If you read the Sentinel article a few weeks ago regarding the population growth of the State of Florida, a region preparing to accomodate 7.2MM people, the only feasible alternative is higher density development. I can understand that people are afraid of change, but this isn't about an individual. This is really about a community adequately anticipating the needs of its citizens and forging some type of partnership that will improve the overall quality of life for everyone involved.

And just as a quick aside, John Mica is your congressman from Winter Park democratically elected and he's been trying to push this for years. So, if he is expressing the will of the poeople, he's done his job by securing the fundins. Maybe WP should do theirs.

Edited December 19, 2006 by mrh3

[Fargin]

For those of you interested, there is a community forum on this topic January 10 at Leu Gardens.

The Charlotte Experience in Transit and Land Use: What Can We Learn?

[radiostatic102]

I don't ever remember hearing that ALL cities on the route had to sign on or else it would kill commuter rail.

I remember talk of if Maitland would sign on for a stop, but I never once heard IF they didn't sign on, THEN it would kill commuter rail. Winter Park, for the most part, has upper class and rich people living there. Yes, they are picky about what they accept in their community. Ponte Vedra Beach near Jacksonville is exactly the same way. Do you know what kind of stink they made about a McDonald's being buit off A1A? If Winter Park doesn't want a commuter rail stop, I don't blame them. They have that freedom. So I won't be able to take the rail to go on the boat tours. So what? Park-n-Rides aren't the prettiest things to look at. And the traffic situation would be made worse, and Fairbanks is already really bad, it would just get worse and almost become useless.

I live in Deltona. I am just thrilled about commuter rail. I will use it, (I work in Orange County) it will save me tons of money and car repair, and if I have to ride a bike to get the rest of the way to work, then it will also be a good way to get some exercise on top of all of that.

Edited December 19, 2006 by radiostatic102

[mrh3]

I don't ever remember hearing that ALL cities on the route had to sign on or else it would kill commuter rail.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected, but my understanding was that the financing that they are currently putting into place is contingent upon rail stops in Winter Park and Maitland.

OC Commuter Rail Deal

[Dale]

Well, let me go on record as saying that if this whole deal hinged on getting WP to ante up for a station, then the crafters of the proposals were foolish indeed.

[radiostatic102]

I can't open the link.

Anyway, yes I could be wrong too.

If contigent upon stops in Maitland & WP, then I do think that changes things. If it's unconditional regardless of which city signs on, then the individual cities should have their say. Because the larger community would still have what they need, in a sense, both parties win.

But if contingent on these 2 cities, then I will have to agree with your former post mentioning John Mica.