SunRail

[i_cre8]

To my knowledge, there were never any plans for a Park n' Ride lot. There are existing surface lots in the area, so I would imagine they're planning to contract with the owners of the existing lots to lease spaces. Furthermore, I could be wrong, but I don't foresee a huge influx of people traveling to WP to GET ON the train. Rather, I'd expect people to be coming into WP via the train, sans car, of course. Thus, no need for a parking lot.

Additionally, I don't see what the big deal is anyway. I'd expect, if anything, for the city to use funds in upgrading the existing Amtrak station to make it assuredly aesthetically pleasing.

All of that said, if the majority of voters in WP don't want the station because they don't want to pay for it, then more power to them. That is, so long as it doesn't kill the rail deal for the rest of us who do want it to serve our relative ghettos.

Edited December 19, 2006 by i_cre8

[mrh3]

This is the best I can come up with right now. I'll find more info. BTW, I studied a lot of urban transportation issues in college and am seeking a Master's in City Planning so I'm pretty passionate about this topic.

2 Orange cities seek rail funds

Bill Segal says the county should help Winter Park and Maitland pay for it.

Christopher Sherman {sodEmoji.|} Sentinel Staff Writer

Posted December 5, 2006

Maitland and Winter Park are so important to a commuter-rail system, the county should help pay their share if they agree to provide stops, says one Orange County commissioner.

Bill Segal will ask his fellow county commissioners today to consider capping at "some fair number" the two cities' operating costs.

"What I'm looking for is some fairness for these two small cities," Segal said Monday.

City officials are studying the possibilities and waiting for detailed cost information before agreeing to build stations. They worry about the cost of covering the train's operating deficit after the state stops paying in 2017.

"It still seems to me that regional transportation issues ought to be handled regionally," Winter Park City Commissioner Doug Metcalf said.

He pointed out that Seminole, Volusia and Osceola counties do not plan to pass on operating and maintenance costs to cities with stops.

"I would hope that Orange County would come to that conclusion, too," he said.

Segal wants to make sure Maitland and Winter Park do not "miss the boat."

In a memo to Orange County Mayor Rich Crotty and other commissioners, Segal wrote: "Both of these cities, although perceived to be affluent, are for the most part built-out with flat tax bases and even with redevelopment, their fluctuations in property tax are not capable of containing new costs associated with large endeavors such as this one."

Maitland Mayor Doug Kinson said the ongoing costs would likely be too much for a city of Maitland's size. Maitland's estimated annual cost is in the $700,000 range, Kinson said.

"With the financial burden we have today, I don't know how we could do that," he said.

The first phase of the commuter rail between DeBary and downtown Orlando is scheduled to open in late 2009. The state would pay for operating and maintenance costs until 2017, but after that, the counties must pay.

On Monday, Winter Park's commuter-rail task force tried to answer questions and present pros and cons.

The business community sees the benefit of bringing shoppers downtown to a station in Central Park. The city also would like to get rid of nine of the 17 freight trains that tie up traffic daily. The three-car commuter-rail trains would move through crossings in a fraction of the time.

An early estimate for Winter Park's annual share in 2017 is $838,000.

"That's a pretty big number for Winter Park, and that's not such a big number for Orange County," Mayor David Strong said.

That cost would translate to about $32 per resident annually, based on a population of 26,000, according to the city's commuter-rail task force. Raising taxes, for example, by $44.60 on property valued at $200,000 would cover it.

In making his argument that the county should cover the costs, Winter Park City Commissioner John Eckbert suggested that perhaps Orange County should pay the city because having a stop there would enhance the system.

Federal funding is available now to cover the $2.5 million cost of a kiss-and-ride, or drop-off station, which would not provide parking. The city would have to pay a 10 percent match for the funding.

Winter Park likely would renovate the platform for the existing Amtrak station in Central Park to accommodate commuter rail.

The city will have a similar informational session Thursday at 6:30 p.m. at City Hall. The task force is scheduled to present its final report to city commissioners on Jan. 24, and commissioners plan to make a decision Feb. 15.

Christopher Sherman can be reached at [email protected] or 407-650-6361.

Edited December 19, 2006 by mrh3

[neon9]

The most amusing thing about pro-development, non-WP residents, is that they have this sanctimonious attitude that theirs is the correct position, not only for themselves and Orange County, but for Winter Park. Its as if these self-appointed experts think they know better and know more than the people that ACTUALLY live in this city 24/7/365 and pay taxes.

This condescending attitude won't play well with the people you're trying to "educate" (brainwash?).

....

WP's desire to preserve its cherished park space, and not pave over it for a rail station for non-residents, will not 'KILL' the rail project. IF you're upset you won't be able to ride a train to our shopping district, you have the option of driving there, as in the past, or not coming at all. We'll find some way to carry on, so don't worry too much about us or the holy rail project.

Rail will be built, and the residents will decide if the impact on OUR city is acceptable or not.

Of the two upcoming votes, I will vote FOR allowing the city to pay $$ for a rail station, but I will vote AGAINST placing such a station anywhere near Central Park. We didn't fight long and hard to kill the Carlyle so that it can be replaced by a concrete commuter park'n'ride hell.

There is an existing, although dumpy, station there. There are very large existing parking lots there as well. There is track there. There are huge freight trains that run several times a day on them- I've even seen them parked for 30 minutes or more at major intersections (like at Fairbanks).

There are existing traffic problems in Winter Park, on 17-92, Fairbanks, 436 et al. There are no plans that I know of to even attempt to improve them, or to give future residents alternatives to using their car-other than commuter rail.

Knowing these things, how can you oppose it? I realize they need a firm plan before people sign off on it, but with these facts it seems pretty cut and dried. No one is threatening to take away Central Park. That's a straw man and so is the Carlyle. This isn't a profit making venture, it's a public transportation improvement and as such if DOT had to condemm land they probably could. At least this isn't an interstate where hundreds of homes and acres of private property have to be condemmed.

Not to mention the fact that oil production, and even more so export, is going to start declining soon (and in fact already has worldwide but it's too early to say if it is permanent) and our time to develop alternatives is short, but that's another discussion altogether.

[sunshine]

actually, we are having more oil now because they found oil in a deeper area that they dont think oil exists.

more company going to drill deeper to find them.

[neon9]

actually, we are having more oil now because they found oil in a deeper area that they dont think oil exists.

more company going to drill deeper to find them.

I assume you're talking about the Jack discovery in the Gulf of Mexico.

It's important to remember that this was 7000 feet under water....and another 20k feet of earth. Just the pressure at the sea floor is 3000 psi, enough to crush solid concrete.

So far it's only been a test run and it's years till it's developed-if it can be at a profit (see the problems with Thunder Horse @ lesser depths)-and even then on the low end of the scale it's 140 days worth or so for the U.S. (3 billion barrels / 21 million BPD).

Actual world peak of All Liquids (might include some ethanol and other biofuels) was May 2005 (85.21 BPD) per the US Energy Information Administration. Crude oil & condensate, what we typically think of as 'oil', peaked in December of the same year (74.08 BPD).

There is simply no way we will become 'energy independent' by drilling for more oil and mining more coal. Well maybe the coal would work for a while but it has it's own problems. To tie this back into the topic, something like 2/3 of our oil use is dedicated to transportation....

[Dale]

If Winter Park does not 'get on board', so to speak ... WE'RE DOOMED!

Actually, whether or not commuter rail would be doomed is the question I have. I'm unclear on whether it is necessary for Winter Park to have a station.

[prahaboheme]

^Not to beat a dead horse, but it seems obvious to me. Winter Park is vital for its ridership and prominence, more the latter over the former.

Edited December 20, 2006 by prahaboheme

[Dale]

I'm just wanting to know what happens if Winter Park refuses to build a station. Does the whole thing collapse ? If the whole thing was contingent on Winter Park building a station, then the brokers were foolish. It would hearken back to the way Edgewood killed the airport connector. Then, there was no provision for building it without Edgewood's participation.

[prahaboheme]

I'd like to know what happens also. I'm afraid they pull out and others follow, or lets say they pull out and Maitland doesn't build a station so really, who is this rail going to service?

[Dale]

I'd like to know what happens also. I'm afraid they pull out and others follow, or lets say they pull out and Maitland doesn't build a station so really, who is this rail going to service?

I suppose that's a valid concern. Alternatively, it might provide the occaision for other communities to thumb their noses at WP.

[JRS1]

WP are a bunch of pricks. $40/year extra? What a joke. the mayor should be ousted. That's $3/month. pricks. I am embarassed to say my zip code is 32789.

[Dale]

WP are a bunch of pricks. $40/year extra? What a joke. the mayor should be ousted. That's $3/month. pricks. I am embarassed to say my zip code is 32789.

Who would oust him ? Not the angry horde. They put him in.

[facilities man]

Winter Park will not make or break this project. This isn't light rail, it's commuter rail. The difference is commuter rail is meant to be more of a rail link for the far out suburbs or even exurbs to employment centers. I think you'll see far more riders from Deltona and Debary than you would Winter Park. Who in Winter Park would drive five minutes to a train stop, wait five or ten minutes for a train, take the five minute trip to downtown Orlando, then walk five minutes to where they work? They could get in their car at home and be Downtown in twenty minutes with traffic. Winter Park would be the one losing out if they do not have a stop because they would be a shopping and eating destination. If I were one of the shop owners anywhere near Park Avenue I'd be screaming at the city commission asking why they are trying to limit access to my business.

[bulldogger]

Winter Park will not make or break this project. This isn't light rail, it's commuter rail. The difference is commuter rail is meant to be more of a rail link for the far out suburbs or even exurbs to employment centers. I think you'll see far more riders from Deltona and Debary than you would Winter Park. Who in Winter Park would drive five minutes to a train stop, wait five or ten minutes for a train, take the five minute trip to downtown Orlando, then walk five minutes to where they work? They could get in their car at home and be Downtown in twenty minutes with traffic. Winter Park would be the one losing out if they do not have a stop because they would be a shopping and eating destination. If I were one of the shop owners anywhere near Park Avenue I'd be screaming at the city commission asking why they are trying to limit access to my business.

For the most part, I agree with you. I do think that there would be some ridership from people that live west of the tracks.

[facilities man]

For the most part, I agree with you. I do think that there would be some ridership from people that live west of the tracks.

I agree, there would be riders that are within walking distance of close in stops. I think the larger volume will come from large park and ride facilities in Deland, Deltona, Debary, Sanford, and Lake Mary. From Longwood on into downtown Orlando I think you'll only get riders who may live a few minutes from the stop, otherwise they'll probably still drive.

[spenser1058]

From interview at orlandosentinel. com today with WP Mayor David Strong:

The commuter rail is an amenity I want to support. But only if a majority of the citizens think it's a good thing, and No. 2, on terms that I think are financially feasible for the city. . . . I want to be a supporter of commuter rail. Not so much for today, but looking 50 years from now when I'm dead and gone. I would hate to think we would miss [out] on a chance to have commuter rail.

[mrh3]

Just found this interview of David Strong on winterpark.org from his election campaign.

Winter Park Mayoral Candidate Interview

Edited December 20, 2006 by mrh3

[mrh3]

Just found this interview of David Strong on winterpark.org from his election campaign.

Winter Park Mayoral Candidate Interview

I am out of this discussion, though. I realize that if the electorate put an anti-growth guy in there is a disconnect between elected officials and the residents. I am not a Winter Park resident and can't vote directly on these issues, therefore I abstain from future comments.

Edited December 20, 2006 by mrh3

[neon9]

I am out of this discussion, though. I realize that if the electorate put an anti-growth guy in there is a disconnect between elected officials and the residents. I am not a Winter Park resident and can't vote directly on these issues, therefore I abstain from future comments.

Well anti-growth is one thing, I don't want to force Winter Park to grow. Personally I think that building on Central Park was pretty ugly and so were some of the methods used to try and get it approved.

But transportation improvements impacting the whole region are another matter entirely. Other places ARE going to grow and we need to plan for it.

[spenser1058]

From today's Sentinel:

DeLAND -- DeLand's train depot used to be the kind of place that made you want to get a tetanus shot.

Passengers bought their tickets at a worn brown counter, then waited on a warped, crumbling platform under a leaky roof. The lobby had peeling walls, scarred benches, cracked floors -- and what may have been the dingiest bathrooms in Florida.

Today, it's a different story.

Six months of careful restoration and $424,000 in state money have transformed the historic Amtrak terminal, turning Volusia's only active train station into a picturesque, modern depot and rescuing a city landmark from the wrecking ball.

"It was pretty depressing, but now it's much more cheerful," said Mark Shuttleworth, mayor of Lake Helen and one of the contractors who helped restore the station. "The whole station will be much more comfortable."

The renovation, which is expected to wrap up this week, may mark the beginning of a new era of train travel in DeLand. The station has been eyed as a potential site for the future commuter rail, which will eventually link DeLand to Orlando and other Central Florida cities.

It is also the cornerstone of Pelham Square, a 200-home community scheduled to be built within walking distance of the train station.

"We're hoping the restoration encourages more people to use the train," Shuttleworth said. "People can hop on and go to Winter Park for the day, shop, have lunch and come back, and never have to take their cars."

....Of course, not if the Winter Park NIMBYs have anything to do with it . If I were a Park Avenue merchant, I'd cringe.

[neon9]

From today's Sentinel:

-- and what may have been the dingiest bathrooms in Florida.

That's quite a claim. Shouldn't they have a contest for this?

[bulldogger]

That's quite a claim. Shouldn't they have a contest for this?

In competition are the bathrooms at the Citrus Bowl.

[FLKP]

Looking for some facts please:

What is the prposed route of this commuter train?

Is it considered "light-rail" ? If not, why not?

Thanks

[bic]

Everything you could possibly want to know about Orlando's commuter rail can be found here: CFRail.com

These are the definitions of commuter/light rail according to that site:

Commuter rail transit (CRT) uses steel-wheeled technology similar to a traditional train and is generally powered by a diesel locomotive. New or existing railroad tracks are utilized for its route. CRT trains consist of 2-10 cars and carry up to 300 passengers per train. Maximum operating speed is generally between 65-79 mph.

Light rail transit (LRT) utilizes electrically-powered vehicles that ride on two rails. Power is provided by overhead wires. Trains generally consist of 1-4 vehicles and carry up to 680 passengers per train. Maximum operating speed is between 55-65 mph. The trains maintain a quiet mode of operation and produce little (if any) emissions.

Here's the route map:

^ Note that the map does not show the stop at Church Street Station, between Lynx Central Station and Orlando Amtrak/ORMC Station.

Edited December 21, 2006 by bic

[FLKP]

wow. Thank you.

So we are getting commuter rail..