SunRail

[Dale]

elected officials from Orange Co, Winter Park, Maitland (not that maitland was ever really on board anyway)

I doubt that Crotty is holding it up in any case. He's been waving the pom-poms along with Buddy. And the OC commissioners have asked prudent questions, in my opinion.

[WeNeed2Progress]

not that it matters, but I thought Charlotte got that $$$.

I agree... I think that's what Chapman had told us in a class at UCF.

[lala67]

not that it matters, but I thought Charlotte got that $$.

picky picky...it could've been charlotte as well, but I'm not positive.

[sunshine]

No, I think it is Houston that got our money.

Charlotte build their system by taxing thmeselves.

[Violindude]

I was in Nashville the other week and was surprised to see that they have a commuter rail. It was the weekend so it wasn't running, but how efficient is it? What I did notice is that there wasn't much developement in the immediate area around the end of the line/ downtown Nashville station. I do hope that they promote commercial growth around out stations. I know we're no Tokyo, but we may as well try!

Nashville's commuter rail is considerably small. I think it only runs back and forth from Lebanon to Nashville . I've been to Lebanon, TN and I can see why they would want a ride out but I'm not sure why the would want to come back. I was suprised to hear it doesn't even go in to the larger suburbs. I think once Orlando's commuter rail starts running it'll be alot more effective from the get go.

[JRS1]

picky picky...it could've been charlotte as well, but I'm not positive.

nah... I just thought someone posted Charlotte on these boards a while back is all...

[neon9]

I was in Nashville the other week and was surprised to see that they have a commuter rail. It was the weekend so it wasn't running, but how efficient is it? What I did notice is that there wasn't much developement in the immediate area around the end of the line/ downtown Nashville station. I do hope that they promote commercial growth around out stations. I know we're no Tokyo, but we may as well try!

Portland is an example of how to do mass transit right.

Map of current and future fixed rail lines

Lots of TOD after it's been in place for some years and is now expanding. Downtown travel is even free. The 'diversity' of street life astounded me.

Salt Lake City is apparently another success story although I've never been there.

I could post some pics of TOD in Portland but dunno if it's worth it.

But not to have plans now to serve any local population center with more than 10k people a square mile (maybe much more, I'm pulling some quick SWAG here-WP, CP, DT/TP (better yet intermodal @ the bus station, then Thornton Park, Lake Cherokee Area?, Millennia, Universal, ) is a serious failure in planning.

Edited May 4, 2007 by neon9

[uptownliving]

Charlotte is only getting $200M from the Feds for its LRT. Whereas Orlando was slated to get $330M in Federal money. The money was not appropraited to the Charlotte line until 2005. So even if Charlotte "got Orlando's money" that still leaves you $130M short that went somewhere else.

[mrh3]

Portland is an example of how to do mass transit right.

Map of current and future fixed rail lines

Lots of TOD after it's been in place for some years and is now expanding. Downtown travel is even free. The 'diversity' of street life astounded me.

Salt Lake City is apparently another success story although I've never been there.

I could post some pics of TOD in Portland but dunno if it's worth it.

But not to have plans now to serve any local population center with more than 10k people a square mile (maybe much more, I'm pulling some quick SWAG here-WP, CP, DT/TP (better yet intermodal @ the bus station, then Thornton Park, Lake Cherokee Area?, Millennia, Universal, ) is a serious failure in planning.

Comparing Portland, OR and and Orlando, FL is like comparing Tokyo to Tampa. The differences are so far apart that its not even oworth opening up the topic for discussion, especially in matters of urban transportation planning.

Edited May 9, 2007 by mrh3

[JRS1]

Comparing Portland, OR and and Orlando, FL is like comparing Tokyo to Tampa. The differences are so far apart that its not even oworth opening up the topic for discussion, especially in matters of urban transportation planning.

then why are you drawing a comparison in the first place?

Orlando is getting CFRAIL coming and the Intermodal center at OIA-- for both terminal complexes. they will have the ability to connect to HSR and to CFRAIL. LRT is being studied to connect to the CFRAIL as well. Lynx feeder lines will support the CFRAIL. And CFRAIL will serve the major commuting centers at the north and southern tips of the metro, following I-4's development pattern along CSX's easement. East and west is what's needed next.

Orlando won't be that far removed from transit-dom once those systems come online.

[bulldogger]

then why are you drawing a comparison in the first place?

Orlando is getting CFRAIL coming and the Intermodal center at OIA-- for both terminal complexes. they will have the ability to connect to HSR and to CFRAIL. LRT is being studied to connect to the CFRAIL as well. Lynx feeder lines will support the CFRAIL. And CFRAIL will serve the major commuting centers at the north and southern tips of the metro, following I-4's development pattern along CSX's easement. East and west is what's needed next.

Orlando won't be that far removed from transit-dom once those systems come online.

What costs more?

a) buying the rights to CSX tracks and not having to build them

b) buying all the ROW and then building tracks

I ask this, because I don't think there is an EW rail system in place and I agree that will be the next step. I wonder if it will be hard to get the funding for an EW commuter rail line if it costs substantially more than the first line.

[sunshine]

I think they will do downtown to Idrive first before they will do UCF to Ocoee line.

I assume your EW refer to UCF to Ocoee and not downtown to Idrive even though it should be called E-W as well.

[sunshine]

I still think the best line to get a lot of passenger is to run it from airport along Idrive to downtown.

[JRS1]

What costs more?

a) buying the rights to CSX tracks and not having to build them

b) buying all the ROW and then building tracks

I ask this, because I don't think there is an EW rail system in place and I agree that will be the next step. I wonder if it will be hard to get the funding for an EW commuter rail line if it costs substantially more than the first line.

actually, they are doing both: buying the rights to the CSX and double-tracking it it certain parts.

what they need to do it countermand the Rails to Trails deal from the late-'90's where they converted the rail line bordering Aloma in certain parts, and then convert it back to rail. then CFRAIL can service the Oveido sector.

as for Waterford and the 408, I don't know the logistics of what kind of easement is needed.

not sure if I mentioned it earlier, but there is also the line from DT up Robinson and up 441 that goes to Apopka and Lake Co. That needs to become CFRAIL also.

too bad commuter rail wasn't in contemplation in the early nineties after Tri-Rail was up and running for a while. We'd be building the extension lines by now.... I assume.

[lala67]

What costs more?

a) buying the rights to CSX tracks and not having to build them

b) buying all the ROW and then building tracks

I ask this, because I don't think there is an EW rail system in place and I agree that will be the next step. I wonder if it will be hard to get the funding for an EW commuter rail line if it costs substantially more than the first line.

it's probably a wash...I think building the tracks is pretty cheap. acquiring the ROW is very expensive. Acquiring ROW from CSX very expensive. The cheapest way is using existing ROW. I think plans call for using the 408 corridor for rail, which makes the most sense.

As for comparing Portland to Orlando, I think Portland is what Orlando should aspire to, not Atlanta. Portland has its problems too. Even with the light rail, there is still quite a bit of sprawl. Some critics rightly point out that the areas that get the most hype as being walkable, mobile, etc. are the older areas, once you get out of the traditional city it's just like any other auto-oriented area. Their growth boundary hasn't really been as successful as it could have been as well.

[Dale]

Did you mean to say that Portland is *not* what Orlando should aspire too ? Last I checked, congestion was only marginally better there, notwithstanding lightrail and stringent zoning.

[lala67]

Did you mean to say that Portland is *not* what Orlando should aspire too ? Last I checked, congestion was only marginally better there, notwithstanding lightrail and stringent zoning.

nope.

Congestion is not necessarily a bad thing. I visited Portland last summer for the first time and was quite impressed. It's not a huge town, but its downtown is a lot bigger and more vibrant than Orlando's. The light rail is a huge plus.

[neon9]

nope.

Congestion is not necessarily a bad thing. I visited Portland last summer for the first time and was quite impressed. It's not a huge town, but its downtown is a lot bigger and more vibrant than Orlando's. The light rail is a huge plus.

Orlando - 213,223

Orlando MSA - 2.6-2.8 mil

2,066.6/sq mi

Portland - 562,690

Portland 'Metro' 2.1 mil (and maybe better measured)

3,939/sq mi

It's the last # that's the killer. There is a lot of midrise development spread around Portland (and on a side note EVERY TIME I write 'Portland' I write 'Portlando') which makes TOD work. Here's some new stuff (I just got back)

just down the street from Portland Adventist and my GF Aunt's home. I notice this is senior housing but there is lots of lofts (apts/condos) being built nearby.

Yeah it's crowded as heck on the interstate during rush hour but that encourages you to use transit. How much would it cost to add to I-5 or I-84, in homes and dollars? The MAX is like 2 or 3 dollars depending on how far you go, and there are passes for half that.

I've added a similar link but this is what is available in Portland RIGHT NOW in terms of electrified light rail transit and also a good bus system and streetcars to boot. New lines being added soon.

Plus, did I mention downtown is free for all public transit?

[JRS1]

those are some expanded MSA numbers. I thought Portland was 1.5M. ORL's numbers must include Volusia and Brevard, or Brevard and 1/2 of Volusia, or something.

[HeartofFlorida]

I'm not trying to strike a nerve with anyone but just to be aware, the CSX project in Winter Haven will undergo a full DRI review which could delay commuter rail in Orlando. Below is a link to the letter released by the Department of Community Affairs:

Letter from Department of Community Affairs

[VistaLakes01]

those are some expanded MSA numbers. I thought Portland was 1.5M. ORL's numbers must include Volusia and Brevard, or Brevard and 1/2 of Volusia, or something.

They have added Volusia, Flagler, and Sumter counties to the Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach CSA making it the 21st largest population center in the US, closing in on Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA. I work part time for the Census Bureau and we are changing the way we view metropolitan areas somewhat. CSA and MSA and Micropolitan areas basically mean the same thing, it just depends on how the population center you live has been developed. In the case of Orlando, it has been determined that over 50% of Volusia commutes and does business and is served by media in the Orlando core market, and since most of Palm Coast (Flagler) has to do the same by coming in to Volusia county, which is now part of the Orlando CSA, it puts them in to it. Same for Sumter (The Villages), they do most business in Lake county which is part of Orlando CSA so that adds them. So some regions are not as sprawled as others (MSA) and we all now live in "Population Centers" as opposed to "Metropolitan Areas." Here are the areas in Orlando's size range:

2006 Primary Census Statistical Areas of the USA

#15 Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud MN CSA 3,502,891

#16 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos CA MSA 2,941,454

#17 Denver-Aurora-Boulder CO CSA 2,927,911

#18 Cleveland-Akron-Elyria OH CSA 2,917,801

#19 St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington MO-IL 2,858,549

#20 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater FL MSA 2,697,731

#21 Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach FL CSA 2,633,282

#22 Pittsburgh-New Carlisle PA CSA 2,462,571

#23 Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City CA-NV CSA 2,373,596

#24 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury NC-SC CSA 2,191,604

#25 Cincinatti-Middletown-Wilmington OH-KY 2,147,617

#26 Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton OR-WA 2,137,565

#27 Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City MO-KS CSA 2,034,796

#28 Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus IN CSA 1,984,644

The reason say, Sarasota-Bradenton is not part of the Tampa pop center is Sarasota is a major business/employment center and over 50% of the population does not work or conduct business in Tampa. The same for Brevard and Orlando, although by the new official census in 2010 Brevard as well as Indian River could be added to the Orlando CSA, depending on the space shuttle business impact and the new spaceship being developed and if Patrick AFB remains open or some sort of large employer locates in Brevard. But as of now, the official census ranking of cities are in this "Population Center" system, MSA and CSA are basically the same.

[facilities man]

Thanks for the info, very much appreciated. Do you have a complete list of the top 50 population centers?

[JRS1]

wow. that is fascinating stuff. so Brevard as of now is it's own CSA b/c of employment patterns?

fFYI, don't be posting this on SSC or the Tampa crew will accuse us of having delusions of grandeur again. some of them post here as well.

[VistaLakes01]

Thanks for the info, very much appreciated. Do you have a complete list of the top 50 population centers?

Sure! Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting it!

Rank Primary Census Statistical Area State 2006 Pop 2000 Pop Δ Pop

1 New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA NY-NJ-CT-PA ......................................21,976,224

2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA CA ...........................................................17,775,984

3 Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA IL-IN-WI...............................................9,725,317

4 Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA DC-MD-VA-WV...................8,211,213

5 Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA MA-RI-NH................................................7,465,634

6 San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA CA ...............................................................7,228,948

7 Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA PA-NJ-DE-MD ....................................6,382,714

8 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA TX..............................................................................

.........6,359,758

9 Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA TX .......................................................................5,641,077

10 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL CSA GA-AL ..................................................5,478,667

11 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA FL .......................................................5,463,857

12 Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA MI ................................................................................

..5,410,014

13 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ MSA AZ ..........................................................................4,039,

182

14 Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA WA .........................................................................3,991,9

11

15 Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI CSA MN-WI .......................................................3,502,891

16 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA CA ...............................................................2,941,454

17 Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO CSA CO ...........................................................................2,927

,911

18 Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CSA OH ............................................................................2,91

7,801

19 St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL CSA MO-IL .....................................................2,858,549

20 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA FL ...............................................................2,697,731

21 Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL CSA FL .................................................................2,633,282

22 Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA CSA PA ..............................................................................2,

462,571

23 Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City, CA-NV CSA CA-NV .............................................2,373,596

24 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC CSA NC-SC ........................................................2,191,604

25 Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA OH-KY-IN ..........................................2,147,617

26 Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA MSA OR-WA ....................................................2,137,565

27 Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS CSA MO-KS .........................................2,034,796

28 Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN CSA IN ...............................................................1,984,644

29 Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe, OH CSA OH.....................................................................1,953,575

30 San Antonio, TX MSA TX ................................................................................

............1,942,217

31 Las Vegas-Paradise-Pahrump, NV CSA NV ...................................................................1,820,232

32 Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI CSA WI.....................................................................1,706,077

33 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC MSA VA-NC .............................................1,649,457

34 Salt Lake City-Ogden-Clearfield, UT CSA UT ................................................................1,632,814

35 Raleigh-Durham-Cary, NC CSA NC .............................................................................1,5

65,223

36 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Columbia, TN CSA TN ...............................................1,533,406

37 Greensboro-Winston-Salem-High Point, NC CSA NC ......................................................1,513,576

38 Austin-Round Rock, TX MSA TX ................................................................................

...1,513,565

39 Louisville-Jefferson County-Elizabethtown-Scottsburg, KY-IN CSA KY-IN ..........................1,356,798

40 Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland, MI CSA MI .................................................................1,320,487

41 Hartford-West Hartford-Willimantic, CT CSA CT .............................................................1,305,713

42 Jacksonville, FL MSA FL ................................................................................

...............1,277,997

43 Memphis, TN-MS-AR MSA TN-MS-AR ............................................................................1,27

4,704

44 Oklahoma City-Shawnee, OK CSA OK .........................................................................1,240,9

77

45 Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus, NY CSA NY......................................................................1,219,05

4

46 Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC CSA SC .............................................................1,203,795

47 Richmond, VA MSA VA..............................................................................

..................1,194,008

48 Birmingham-Hoover-Cullman, AL CSA AL ....................................................................1,180,206

49 Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam, NY CSA NY ...............................................................1,147,914

50 Rochester-Batavia-Seneca Falls, NY CSA NY ................................................................1,128,989

[VistaLakes01]

wow. that is fascinating stuff. so Brevard as of now is it's own CSA b/c of employment patterns?

fFYI, don't be posting this on SSC or the Tampa crew will accuse us of having delusions of grandeur again. some of them post here as well.

[/quote

Yep, basically the majority of people who work at the major employers in Brevard live in that county. It is a very strange county, it's always been an extension of Orlando. The Beeline was built because of it and it was one of the first areas of the country to have cable TV because there are no major media outlets and you can't get the Orlando TV stations without it. But like I said, it's balancing on a 50/50 thing with the employment, any sub-major change in the space program or the military would add it Greater Orlando because more people from there would be commuting here for decent jobs. I work in UCF Research Park and a large number of people there already commute from Titusville and Port St. John.

(I know what you mean about the Tampa thing....my brother lives there and I have no more arguments left)