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nope.

Congestion is not necessarily a bad thing. I visited Portland last summer for the first time and was quite impressed. It's not a huge town, but its downtown is a lot bigger and more vibrant than Orlando's. The light rail is a huge plus.

Orlando - 213,223

Orlando MSA - 2.6-2.8 mil

2,066.6/sq mi

Portland - 562,690

Portland 'Metro' 2.1 mil (and maybe better measured)

3,939/sq mi

It's the last # that's the killer. There is a lot of midrise development spread around Portland (and on a side note EVERY TIME I write 'Portland' I write 'Portlando') which makes TOD work. Here's some new stuff (I just got back)

post-8152-1179355271_thumb.jpg

just down the street from Portland Adventist and my GF Aunt's home. I notice this is senior housing but there is lots of lofts (apts/condos) being built nearby.

Yeah it's crowded as heck on the interstate during rush hour but that encourages you to use transit. How much would it cost to add to I-5 or I-84, in homes and dollars? The MAX is like 2 or 3 dollars depending on how far you go, and there are passes for half that.

I've added a similar link but this is what is available in Portland RIGHT NOW in terms of electrified light rail transit and also a good bus system and streetcars to boot. New lines being added soon.

Plus, did I mention downtown is free for all public transit?

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Agreed.  I hate that people make things for PEOPLE about politics.  There is no partisan divide on things that help all of us.  I don't care if you're rich and never ride a SunRail train.  The pe

Just heard Downtown Kissimmee to Downtown Orlando will be shorter than a 30 minute trip.    That’s fantastic!

https://www.transit.dot.gov/ntd/ntd-data The FTA released their monthly update of transit ridership for August, the first month the southern expansion was open. Sunrail ridership increased 70% fr

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm not trying to strike a nerve with anyone but just to be aware, the CSX project in Winter Haven will undergo a full DRI review which could delay commuter rail in Orlando. Below is a link to the letter released by the Department of Community Affairs:

Letter from Department of Community Affairs

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those are some expanded MSA numbers. I thought Portland was 1.5M. ORL's numbers must include Volusia and Brevard, or Brevard and 1/2 of Volusia, or something.

They have added Volusia, Flagler, and Sumter counties to the Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach CSA making it the 21st largest population center in the US, closing in on Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA. I work part time for the Census Bureau and we are changing the way we view metropolitan areas somewhat. CSA and MSA and Micropolitan areas basically mean the same thing, it just depends on how the population center you live has been developed. In the case of Orlando, it has been determined that over 50% of Volusia commutes and does business and is served by media in the Orlando core market, and since most of Palm Coast (Flagler) has to do the same by coming in to Volusia county, which is now part of the Orlando CSA, it puts them in to it. Same for Sumter (The Villages), they do most business in Lake county which is part of Orlando CSA so that adds them. So some regions are not as sprawled as others (MSA) and we all now live in "Population Centers" as opposed to "Metropolitan Areas." Here are the areas in Orlando's size range:

2006 Primary Census Statistical Areas of the USA

#15 Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud MN CSA 3,502,891

#16 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos CA MSA 2,941,454

#17 Denver-Aurora-Boulder CO CSA 2,927,911

#18 Cleveland-Akron-Elyria OH CSA 2,917,801

#19 St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington MO-IL 2,858,549

#20 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater FL MSA 2,697,731

#21 Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach FL CSA 2,633,282

#22 Pittsburgh-New Carlisle PA CSA 2,462,571

#23 Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City CA-NV CSA 2,373,596

#24 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury NC-SC CSA 2,191,604

#25 Cincinatti-Middletown-Wilmington OH-KY 2,147,617

#26 Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton OR-WA 2,137,565

#27 Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City MO-KS CSA 2,034,796

#28 Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus IN CSA 1,984,644

The reason say, Sarasota-Bradenton is not part of the Tampa pop center is Sarasota is a major business/employment center and over 50% of the population does not work or conduct business in Tampa. The same for Brevard and Orlando, although by the new official census in 2010 Brevard as well as Indian River could be added to the Orlando CSA, depending on the space shuttle business impact and the new spaceship being developed and if Patrick AFB remains open or some sort of large employer locates in Brevard. But as of now, the official census ranking of cities are in this "Population Center" system, MSA and CSA are basically the same.

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wow. that is fascinating stuff. so Brevard as of now is it's own CSA b/c of employment patterns?

fFYI, don't be posting this on SSC or the Tampa crew will accuse us of having delusions of grandeur again. some of them post here as well.

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Thanks for the info, very much appreciated. Do you have a complete list of the top 50 population centers?

Sure! Hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting it!

Rank Primary Census Statistical Area State 2006 Pop 2000 Pop Δ Pop

1 New York-Newark-Bridgeport, NY-NJ-CT-PA CSA NY-NJ-CT-PA ......................................21,976,224

2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, CA CSA CA ...........................................................17,775,984

3 Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City, IL-IN-WI CSA IL-IN-WI...............................................9,725,317

4 Washington-Baltimore-Northern Virginia, DC-MD-VA-WV CSA DC-MD-VA-WV...................8,211,213

5 Boston-Worcester-Manchester, MA-RI-NH CSA MA-RI-NH................................................7,465,634

6 San Jose-San Francisco-Oakland, CA CSA CA ...............................................................7,228,948

7 Philadelphia-Camden-Vineland, PA-NJ-DE-MD CSA PA-NJ-DE-MD ....................................6,382,714

8 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CSA TX..............................................................................

.........6,359,758

9 Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, TX CSA TX .......................................................................5,641,077

10 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Gainesville, GA-AL CSA GA-AL ..................................................5,478,667

11 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-Pompano Beach, FL MSA FL .......................................................5,463,857

12 Detroit-Warren-Flint, MI CSA MI ................................................................................

..5,410,014

13 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ MSA AZ ..........................................................................4,039,

182

14 Seattle-Tacoma-Olympia, WA CSA WA .........................................................................3,991,9

11

15 Minneapolis-St. Paul-St. Cloud, MN-WI CSA MN-WI .......................................................3,502,891

16 San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, CA MSA CA ...............................................................2,941,454

17 Denver-Aurora-Boulder, CO CSA CO ...........................................................................2,927

,911

18 Cleveland-Akron-Elyria, OH CSA OH ............................................................................2,91

7,801

19 St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington, MO-IL CSA MO-IL .....................................................2,858,549

20 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA FL ...............................................................2,697,731

21 Orlando-Deltona-Daytona Beach, FL CSA FL .................................................................2,633,282

22 Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA CSA PA ..............................................................................2,

462,571

23 Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City, CA-NV CSA CA-NV .............................................2,373,596

24 Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, NC-SC CSA NC-SC ........................................................2,191,604

25 Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington, OH-KY-IN CSA OH-KY-IN ..........................................2,147,617

26 Portland-Vancouver-Beaverton, OR-WA MSA OR-WA ....................................................2,137,565

27 Kansas City-Overland Park-Kansas City, MO-KS CSA MO-KS .........................................2,034,796

28 Indianapolis-Anderson-Columbus, IN CSA IN ...............................................................1,984,644

29 Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe, OH CSA OH.....................................................................1,953,575

30 San Antonio, TX MSA TX ................................................................................

............1,942,217

31 Las Vegas-Paradise-Pahrump, NV CSA NV ...................................................................1,820,232

32 Milwaukee-Racine-Waukesha, WI CSA WI.....................................................................1,706,077

33 Virginia Beach-Norfolk-Newport News, VA-NC MSA VA-NC .............................................1,649,457

34 Salt Lake City-Ogden-Clearfield, UT CSA UT ................................................................1,632,814

35 Raleigh-Durham-Cary, NC CSA NC .............................................................................1,5

65,223

36 Nashville-Davidson-Murfreesboro-Columbia, TN CSA TN ...............................................1,533,406

37 Greensboro-Winston-Salem-High Point, NC CSA NC ......................................................1,513,576

38 Austin-Round Rock, TX MSA TX ................................................................................

...1,513,565

39 Louisville-Jefferson County-Elizabethtown-Scottsburg, KY-IN CSA KY-IN ..........................1,356,798

40 Grand Rapids-Muskegon-Holland, MI CSA MI .................................................................1,320,487

41 Hartford-West Hartford-Willimantic, CT CSA CT .............................................................1,305,713

42 Jacksonville, FL MSA FL ................................................................................

...............1,277,997

43 Memphis, TN-MS-AR MSA TN-MS-AR ............................................................................1,27

4,704

44 Oklahoma City-Shawnee, OK CSA OK .........................................................................1,240,9

77

45 Buffalo-Niagara-Cattaraugus, NY CSA NY......................................................................1,219,05

4

46 Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson, SC CSA SC .............................................................1,203,795

47 Richmond, VA MSA VA..............................................................................

..................1,194,008

48 Birmingham-Hoover-Cullman, AL CSA AL ....................................................................1,180,206

49 Albany-Schenectady-Amsterdam, NY CSA NY ...............................................................1,147,914

50 Rochester-Batavia-Seneca Falls, NY CSA NY ................................................................1,128,989

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wow. that is fascinating stuff. so Brevard as of now is it's own CSA b/c of employment patterns?

fFYI, don't be posting this on SSC or the Tampa crew will accuse us of having delusions of grandeur again. some of them post here as well.

[/quote

Yep, basically the majority of people who work at the major employers in Brevard live in that county. It is a very strange county, it's always been an extension of Orlando. The Beeline was built because of it and it was one of the first areas of the country to have cable TV because there are no major media outlets and you can't get the Orlando TV stations without it. But like I said, it's balancing on a 50/50 thing with the employment, any sub-major change in the space program or the military would add it Greater Orlando because more people from there would be commuting here for decent jobs. I work in UCF Research Park and a large number of people there already commute from Titusville and Port St. John.

(I know what you mean about the Tampa thing....my brother lives there and I have no more arguments left)

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Yep, basically the majority of people who work at the major employers in Brevard live in that county. It is a very strange county, it's always been an extension of Orlando. The Beeline was built because of it and it was one of the first areas of the country to have cable TV because there are no major media outlets and you can't get the Orlando TV stations without it. But like I said, it's balancing on a 50/50 thing with the employment, any sub-major change in the space program or the military would add it Greater Orlando because more people from there would be commuting here for decent jobs. I work in UCF Research Park and a large number of people there already commute from Titusville and Port St. John.

(I know what you mean about the Tampa thing....my brother lives there and I have no more arguments left)

Orlando will cruise up a few spots within 5 years b/c W.Volusia is growing, as is Lake-Sumter area. Sumter isn't part of the MSA nor is Volusia. But they are part of the CSA, as is Flagler b/c of Volusia. wow. Flagler and Volusia might as well be one since they are so intertwined business and development wise. Is West Volusia more populated than East Volusia? probably so.

I always figured that if they developed the 528/520/50 area in E. Orange, it would be the development link to Brevard to tie it into the metro. Funny, they widened or are widening 520 from 50 to I-95 in Brevard, and widened SR 44 in Volusia from I-4 to I-95, the last Deland exit before Daytona. Reminds me of the highways to Athens in Atlanta and how they are wide and developed. I think Athens is part of that metro too.

Orlando plus Tampa is like 5.3M. Add in Polk and it's 5.9M, which would be the largest combined CSA (if that would be a category) shy of Dallas' numbers. West Polk begins and you can't tell if there's abreak in development from Hillsborough to Polk. In East Polk, the same goes for the Polk/Osceola/Orange County lines. A little more rural, but it's interesting, b/c in 10 years, it will be way more developed.

Add in Manasota and your at 6.5M and add in Brevard and your at 7M. interesting stuff.

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Orlando will cruise up a few spots within 5 years b/c W.Volusia is growing, as is Lake-Sumter area. Sumter isn't part of the MSA nor is Volusia. But they are part of the CSA, as is Flagler b/c of Volusia. wow. Flagler and Volusia might as well be one since they are so intertwined business and development wise. Is West Volusia more populated than East Volusia? probably so.

I always figured that if they developed the 528/520/50 area in E. Orange, it would be the development link to Brevard to tie it into the metro. Funny, they widened or are widening 520 from 50 to I-95 in Brevard, and widened SR 44 in Volusia from I-4 to I-95, the last Deland exit before Daytona. Reminds me of the highways to Athens in Atlanta and how they are wide and developed. I think Athens is part of that metro too.

Orlando plus Tampa is like 5.3M. Add in Polk and it's 5.9M, which would be the largest combined CSA (if that would be a category) shy of Dallas' numbers. West Polk begins and you can't tell if there's abreak in development from Hillsborough to Polk. In East Polk, the same goes for the Polk/Osceola/Orange County lines. A little more rural, but it's interesting, b/c in 10 years, it will be way more developed.

Add in Manasota and your at 6.5M and add in Brevard and your at 7M. interesting stuff.

The census people take "Orlampa" seriously, if things continue the way they are going this will be one of the top ten population centers in 20 years or less. And Orlando (like Atlanta) is just like a spider with eight legs going out in every direction. If you look at the Expressway Authorities plans or wish list, it's very similar. It's too bad that high speed rail got shot down (even though we voted for it) that would link Orlando, Tampa, and Miami. Being able to get to another one of our Florida cities in an hour or two or less would incredible! You would never run out of options on how to spend the day!

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metrowester, do you have access to the density figures for those top CSA's? I always have a hard time finding density figures on census.gov.

i can probably find them for you...i have density maps..in what form do you want it? Like per square mile per county? per CSA or MSA?

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FYI on AMtrak service:

No, not commuter rail, but did you all know that Orlando has 3 different lines that come through here? That's more than any other city in Florida:

1. Sunset Ltd.-- Orl-Jax-San Anton.-LA

2. Silver Service-- Mia-Tam-Orl-Jax-Sav.-DC-NYC

3. Auto Train-- Orl-DC

call me trivial, but I find that very impressive.

in fact, that's more than Atlanta or Charlotte as well. New Orleans has 3 service routes as well. that rounds out the southeast for most service.

Edited by JRS1
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FYI on AMtrak service:

No, not commuter rail, but did you all know that Orlando has 3 different lines that come through here? That's more than any other city in Florida:

1. Sunset Ltd.-- Orl-Jax-San Anton.-LA

2. Silver Service-- Mia-Tam-Orl-Jax-Sav.-DC-NYC

3. Auto Train-- Orl-DC

call me trivial, but I find that very impressive.

in fact, that's more than Atlanta or Charlotte as well. New Orleans has 3 service routes as well. that rounds out the southeast for most service.

I believe the Sunset Ltd. is still out of service around New Orleans/Mississippi Gulf Coast area because of Katrina-I don't know how they were working around that, buses?

After riding trains in several european countries, I think I'm spoiled. I don't know if I could ride Amtrak anymore (and I've only ridden it once between Jackson MS and NOLA-took at least an hour longer than a car because they stop at every town inbetween. However it gave you a great view of the bayou and Lake Ponchatrain.....)

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I believe the Sunset Ltd. is still out of service around New Orleans/Mississippi Gulf Coast area because of Katrina-I don't know how they were working around that, buses?

After riding trains in several european countries, I think I'm spoiled. I don't know if I could ride Amtrak anymore (and I've only ridden it once between Jackson MS and NOLA-took at least an hour longer than a car because they stop at every town inbetween. However it gave you a great view of the bayou and Lake Ponchatrain.....)

I took it from Chicago-Mil-Minn-ND-Whitefish, Montana. incredibly scenic.

But I will say this... when CFRAIL starts running, I think it will tie Amtrak into the transportation network a little better. granted, both will travel by the same stops, but CFRAIL will also be a catalyst for improved and new bus feeder routes.

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  • 3 weeks later...

FYI on AMtrak service:

No, not commuter rail, but did you all know that Orlando has 3 different lines that come through here? That's more than any other city in Florida:

1. Sunset Ltd.-- Orl-Jax-San Anton.-LA

2. Silver Service-- Mia-Tam-Orl-Jax-Sav.-DC-NYC

3. Auto Train-- Orl-DC

call me trivial, but I find that very impressive.

in fact, that's more than Atlanta or Charlotte as well. New Orleans has 3 service routes as well. that rounds out the southeast for most service.

there's a new service from another train co.(Grand Luxe Rail--look in the general florida forum-- posted yesterday) with a route from DC-Jax-ORL-MIA.

this makes it 4 routes coming thru Orlando with stops. That's even more impressive than before.

Edited by JRS1
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1. Sunset Ltd.-- This train is canceled east of New Orleans indefinitely

2. Silver Service-- This is two separate trains, two northbound and two southbound daily

3. Auto Train-- Terminates north of Orlando in Sanford

4. Grand Luxe-- This will not be an additional train. It will be several cars on the end of Silver Service Amtrak trains.

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1. Sunset Ltd.-- This train is canceled east of New Orleans indefinitely

2. Silver Service-- This is two separate trains, two northbound and two southbound daily

3. Auto Train-- Terminates north of Orlando in Sanford

4. Grand Luxe-- This will not be an additional train. It will be several cars on the end of Silver Service Amtrak trains.

why would you even go there?

Sanford? what's the difference? it's still Orlando metro. Oh, your's judging distances by Jacksonville standards. sorry, Orlando is a little bigger...

And if you want to be technical about it, the Auto Train terminates in Lorton, VA., and not DC proper, so who really cares.

it still doesn't change the fact that there's more service to Orlando METRO than in any other city in Florida, even CSX's HQ city, the mighty Jacksonville, whether the Sunset Ltd. service is operational or not. b/c if you cancel the Sunset Ltd. service east of NO, it cancels Jax's service as well.

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JRS1, when I read your post before Lunican's I came away from it thinking that there were 4 different routes coming through Orlando. But as Lunican poined out, this is clearly not the case. There's no need to get defensive about it....he (or she?) just pointed out that the reality is not quite as you made it seem. One route is not servicing Orlando now, another terminates well north of Downtown Orlando (which is significant when there's no light rail, subway, or commuter rail to connect to), and one is just a different class of service tacked on to an existing train. So it's not 4 routes currently rolling through Orlando but just one.

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JRS1, when I read your post before Lunican's I came away from it thinking that there were 4 different routes coming through Orlando. But as Lunican poined out, this is clearly not the case. There's no need to get defensive about it....he (or she?) just pointed out that the reality is not quite as you made it seem. One route is not servicing Orlando now, another terminates well north of Downtown Orlando (which is significant when there's no light rail, subway, or commuter rail to connect to), and one is just a different class of service tacked on to an existing train. So it's not 4 routes currently rolling through Orlando but just one.

bic, compadre, I hear you. But all I said was that Orlando has 3 different lines... etc. I never said downtown Orlando.

Sanford: the Auto train will have a CFRAIL station in Sanford- it's the same CSX line. But that's not the point. He's getting technical with me to discount what I originally wrote, when my original post was actually posted in shock of learning what I did when I did. and that's it.

He was right about the Grand Luxe service piggybacking off of an existing train route. And he was right about the Sunset Ltd. stopping indefinitely east of NO b/c of Katrina damage, etc.

with his logic, then Orlando doesn't really have an international airport b/c it's not in downtown, rather, 16 or so miles away (albeit in the city limits).

and even with the temporary suspension of the Sunset Ltd. service, Orlando will still have the most Amtrak service in FLA, b/c Jax was No. 2 and losing Sunset means Jax loses it too. not that I care. And there is no stop in Jax for the Auto Train.

...alright... I apologize for my tone in my earlier post.

Edited by JRS1
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bic, compadre, I hear you. But all I said was that Orlando has 3 different lines... etc. I never said downtown Orlando.

Sanford: the Auto train will have a CFRAIL station in Sanford- it's the same CSX line. But that's not the point. He's getting technical with me to discount what I originally wrote, when my original post was actually posted in shock of learning what I did when I did. and that's it.

He was right about the Grand Luxe service piggybacking off of an existing train route. And he was right about the Sunset Ltd. stopping indefinitely east of NO b/c of Katrina damage, etc.

with his logic, then Orlando doesn't really have an international airport b/c it's not in downtown, rather, 16 or so miles away (albeit in the city limits).

and even with the temporary suspension of the Sunset Ltd. service, Orlando will still have the most Amtrak service in FLA, b/c Jax was No. 2 and losing Sunset means Jax loses it too. not that I care. And there is no stop in Jax for the Auto Train.

...alright... I apologize for my tone in my earlier post.

That's odd, the auto train doesn't stop in Jax? Does it go through Jax? Also, if I'm thinking correctly the auto train is pre-Disney. I wonder what the point of Sanford as the destination? I guess to be centrally located to the old Central Florida attractions as well as the beaches and the Turnpike to Miami.

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That's odd, the auto train doesn't stop in Jax? Does it go through Jax? Also, if I'm thinking correctly the auto train is pre-Disney. I wonder what the point of Sanford as the destination? I guess to be centrally located to the old Central Florida attractions as well as the beaches and the Turnpike to Miami.

I checked-- only the VA station and Sanford, via the CSX track.

I don't know why; maybe as you said it's a central location?

Sanford does have a port (technically). maybe that has something to do with it.

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That's odd, the auto train doesn't stop in Jax? Does it go through Jax? Also, if I'm thinking correctly the auto train is pre-Disney. I wonder what the point of Sanford as the destination? I guess to be centrally located to the old Central Florida attractions as well as the beaches and the Turnpike to Miami.

Unless things have changed (which I doubt) then I definately can say that the Auto Train only stops in two places, Sanford,FL and Lorton, VA. I know this because as a kid, I rode on the Auto Train almost every summer. The last time I rode was probably over ten years ago, but I still believe nothing is different. The train does pass through Jacksonville, but does not stop. The train does stop overnight somewhere in the Carolinas to switch crews. Absolutely no passengers get off at this point. Passengers only get on and off at the two previously mentioned towns.

Edited by EngineerNole
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  • 2 weeks later...

^ That article says that recent changes to the commuter rail plans include moving the DeBary station 5 miles to the south and including the Sand Lake Road station in the initial phase. That's pretty significant because that station will be the closest stop to Orlando International Airport...so people should be able to go from the airport to downtown with just one transfer on public transit as early as 2010, as opposed to 2013 when the second phase comes online.

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  • sunshine changed the title to SunRail

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