SunRail

[spenser1058]

Here's an in-depth article from the Tampa Tribune about the CSX-DOT deal for Orlando commuter rail, how opposition by Marion, Polk and perhaps Hillsborough counties is growing, and how it intersects with the High Speed Rail project:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/08/la.../?news-breaking

It seems this thing may be quite a way from being a done deal now that Jeb is gone.

[JRS1]

Here's an in-depth article from the Tampa Tribune about the CSX-DOT deal for Orlando commuter rail, how opposition by Marion, Polk and perhaps Hillsborough counties is growing, and how it intersects with the High Speed Rail project:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/08/la.../?news-breaking

It seems this thing may be quite a way from being a done deal now that Jeb is gone.

wow. I knew $500M seemed like alot to buy the 61miles of track--- that figure represents the whole deal inclusive of the Winter Haven center and other systems affected...

oh boy...

[neon9]

Here's an in-depth article from the Tampa Tribune about the CSX-DOT deal for Orlando commuter rail, how opposition by Marion, Polk and perhaps Hillsborough counties is growing, and how it intersects with the High Speed Rail project:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/08/la.../?news-breaking

It seems this thing may be quite a way from being a done deal now that Jeb is gone.

This sounds really, really shady.

[Fargin]

Here's an in-depth article from the Tampa Tribune about the CSX-DOT deal for Orlando commuter rail, how opposition by Marion, Polk and perhaps Hillsborough counties is growing, and how it intersects with the High Speed Rail project:

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/08/la.../?news-breaking

It seems this thing may be quite a way from being a done deal now that Jeb is gone.

As the story alludes to, and I have seen on many projects I've worked on... if CSX (or any railroad for that matter) wants it they are going to get it. They (RRs) are an EXTREMELY powerful lobby. I was very doubtful commuter rail would ever come to Orlando... that is until I heard that CSX was behind the push. This is a foregone conclusion folks... the DOT and all the local governments out west can hem and haw (I also have a STRONG feeling the numbers the DOT come up with will support commuter rail), but this deal is getting done. Orlando will have commuter rail in a few years.

[sunshine]

maybe tampa is just jealous that we go ahead of them.

[JRS1]

maybe tampa is just jealous that we go ahead of them.

I'm thinking it's like a theory I had a while back, that Port of Tampa is so busy with freight that it would be hard to move freight onto other tracks to make way for commuter rail. turns out, the intermodal center moving to Polk would be the main reason...

[neon9]

I'm a bit worried about 'peak oil' as I've mentioned before, and was thinking-if I'm not mistaken, the light rail proposal from downtown to I-drive died back in 1999, right when I moved here. At that time property was relatively cheap, and oil even cheaper, 15-20 dollars a barrel.

Everyone pretty much knows what happened, the OCC voted against it, and we've been condemned to our chronically overcrowded roads ever since.

In that time property values have roughly doubled, maybe more, depending on where it's located. Also in that time, oil has sextupled (is that a word?), from $15 to over $90. With a bad inventory report today, it's going over $100. Tapis oil, from Indonesia, has already gotten there.

http://www.upstreamonline.com/market_data/?id=markets_crude

Anyone else think we might have already missed this particular boat?

[JRS1]

^^

do you mean b/c of energy prices, did we miss the boat for CRT? I don't think so. CRT will use less fuel than all the cars represented by it's patrons by far.

what we need in ORL is a nuclear power plant (unless Crystal River already gives us power... or some power). b/c, then, you could convert heavy water into electric (boogey woogey woogey) probably cheaper than hauling coal thru Taft to the E. Orlando power plant indefinitely into the future.

[sunshine]

Commuter rail deal almost done

The last big sticking point -- liability issues -- looks likely to be settled by a key Nov. 30 federal deadline.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/...rl_tab01_layout

[wally2169]

Election 2007:

Charlotte Transit Wins By 70%; Seattle Transit Expansion Loses

http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_lrt_2007-11b.htm

This is an encouraging sign that a major metro area like Charlotte can bring the people together to vote for a much needed light rail line to help alleviate traffic issues

If Charlotte can do it, no reason why a good transportation package cannot make it in Orlando

However, on the flip side, this article also shows that Seattle rejected a $38 billion transportation infrastructure package pretty overwhelmingly

Considering Seattle is a much larger metro area with far worse traffic issues, this defeat is pretty catastrophic

Aside from whatever fares are collected to ride the lines, does anyone have any idea roughly how much subsidy comes from the government over the life of such a line?

[Dale]

Re: Seattle, $38 billions seems catastrophic. Maybe voters saw it as a boondoggle.

[facilities man]

Re: Seattle, $38 billions seems catastrophic. Maybe voters saw it as a boondoggle.

38 BILLION???

I can understand why that was voted down. Orlando's commuter rail is supposed to be less than 1 billion I believe. What were they trying to build??? Whatever it was, it would have mortgaged the community for the next 100 years.

[wally2169]

Re: Seattle, $38 billions seems catastrophic. Maybe voters saw it as a boondoggle.

I agree the $38 billion is a disgusting amount but to clarify, it isn't just for light rail only

The referendum was to allocate about $15 billion towards a multi leg light rail that would span over the entire greater Seattle metro area including its outlying suburban areas

The remaining money would be invested in new road construction, widening existing major roadways, replacing several bridges, bike trails, etc

Many are saying the reason why this failed was that one leg of the light rail is completed and will open to business soon and many people are eager to see if that first leg actually succeeds before looking to increasing its size tenfold

Plus, the fact it was bundled into a large program of road construction and more might also lead to its demise

Charlotte go its referendum approved because it was more simplistic and not nearly such a huge amount

I think this is what we need to do in Orlando, give the commuter rail line a chance to succeed and actually come up with a light rail plan people will actually vote for

Past mistakes on how it was presented to voters seemed to doom it

[Migman]

I would love to see LRT in Orlando. Especially along Alafaya Trail to service the UCF community.

[neon9]

That $38 Billion was one of those totally misrepresented, connived figures that the main opponents, in particular Light Rail Now, tried to force by obstructive financing rules and "creative" accounting to derail a project. Now they try to use that as an example of why their ideas are so great. Unfortunately it goes to show you that many people posing as "experts" are in fact the most biased, most misleading people out there.

Light rail now opposed the project?

[wally2169]

Anyone have any idea how much government subsidy is necessary for either a light rail or commuter rail for operational purposes?

[neon9]

Anyone have any idea how much government subsidy is necessary for either a light rail or commuter rail for operational purposes?

It totally varies, if nothing else upon ridership, although I feel comfortable in saying that most of the up front investment has to and typically is paid for by the government, as in the state and feds. However, that seems quite reasonable considering the state/federal involvement in paying for roads.

Let's face it, no typical citywide mass transit system will or should pay for itself. Similar to the situation with roads. The toll roads being the exception to this rule that I'm considering. Perhaps a line from DT or SLR to the airport would be analogous, like the trains from airports in London (quite overpriced and probably 'profitable'). Tourists could be expected to bear a little more of the burden?

A retired admiral has estimated the actual cost of gas at over $8 a gallon considering the price of our presence in the middle east.

One thing that I was trying to get at above, is not that it's too expensive to power mass transit, even that powered by diesel like this system is, but just that while we've waited the land has not only gotten more expensive, but we must consider the fact more and more other cities will be competing for limited federal dollars for fixed mass transit systems. Now the price of oil has risen very quickly and we're years away from a working system. Not to mention, the increased price of oil will likely raise the prices of everything else used to construct such systems. For _this_ price (700 mil almost?) I'm almost wondering if a BRT lane down I4 would make more sense.

A good comparision between road and fixed transit operation costs would be very interesting but the interesting thing is rail maintenance costs don't go up with higher usage, while road costs do. And I would think the extra continuing costs involved in a road would outweigh any initial cost advantage. It's just getting enough riders....a

[JRS1]

CSX has a big intermodal facility in Taft--- look on google maps and it looks like a 1 mile long driveway where semi's park parallel to each other with their backs facing the track which borders the driveway. it's pretty huge. it would be a shame if CSX shuts it down completely.

[scottggilbertREALTOR]

And yet imagine a new hip addition to downtown in that area --- where else is there somewhat affordable and basically undeveloped land within the core of downtown. Picture mid rise loft apartment buildings and more hip restaurants / bars - kinda like the current Orlando Brewery...

[lala67]

Aside from whatever fares are collected to ride the lines, does anyone have any idea roughly how much subsidy comes from the government over the life of such a line?

I just saw a presentation today on fare box collections in a variety of transit operations throughout the country. I think PATH (NJ transit?) collects about 55% of their costs. Other places collected around 25-40%. Busses as a rule collect around 20%. I was talking to someone from Lynx and they said they get around 20% back.

In places like Vancouver, supposedly, they haven't built a new road or added a new lane to their transportation system in 30 years. At this point, developers are creating the demand for more transit service and it's getting built. Shame that Seattle's referendum was bundled with so much other stuff. Richard Crotty learned that lesson back in 2004.

The problem for Central Florida is that our land use pattern is such that it's going to be really hard to make transit work. Beyond that, there's the lack of political will to create real change. But small changes are coming. I think the elected officials are just having a hard time thinking outside the box when it comes to things like concurrency and transit oriented design. They seem to understand the need for transit, the need for infill, and the need for multiple modes of transportation, but they have a hard time moving from concept to implementation.

Edited November 15, 2007 by lala67

[lala67]

It totally varies, if nothing else upon ridership, although I feel comfortable in saying that most of the up front investment has to and typically is paid for by the government, as in the state and feds. However, that seems quite reasonable considering the state/federal involvement in paying for roads.

Let's face it, no typical citywide mass transit system will or should pay for itself. Similar to the situation with roads. The toll roads being the exception to this rule that I'm considering.

A good comparision between road and fixed transit operation costs would be very interesting but the interesting thing is rail maintenance costs don't go up with higher usage, while road costs do. And I would think the extra continuing costs involved in a road would outweigh any initial cost advantage. It's just getting enough riders....a

great post.

a huge part of the problem is our relatively low density in Central Florida. While we have enough potential riders for the region, they're all so spread out that it makes using mass transit difficult. Then there are the improvements needed at the destinations.

[neon9]

I just saw a presentation today on fare box collections in a variety of transit operations throughout the country. I think PATH (NJ transit?) collects about 55% of their costs. Other places collected around 25-40%. Busses as a rule collect around 20%. I was talking to someone from Lynx and they said they get around 20% back.

In places like Vancouver, supposedly, they haven't built a new road or added a new lane to their transportation system in 30 years. At this point, developers are creating the demand for more transit service and it's getting built. Shame that Seattle's referendum was bundled with so much other stuff. Richard Crotty learned that lesson back in 2004.

The problem for Central Florida is that our land use pattern is such that it's going to be really hard to make transit work. Beyond that, there's the lack of political will to create real change. But small changes are coming. I think the elected officials are just having a hard time thinking outside the box when it comes to things like concurrency and transit oriented design. They seem to understand the need for transit, the need for infill, and the need for multiple modes of transportation, but they have a hard time moving from concept to implementation.

You're right, concurrency probably doesn't end up making much sense for roads/transportation. Lacking any natural boundaries like Vancouver, or any artificial ones like Portland, has made for a lot of sprawl....

[JRS1]

there are some highways in Chicago that haven't been changed in like 30-40 years, like the Skyway--- still 3 lanes as of the '90's. But, I-94 went thru a major reconstruction with express lanes in the early '90's and their suburban toll road system has grown substantially since then as well, yet Chicago is a rail and transit juggernaut (EL Train; METRA commuter train; etc...). I think you need both to attack the problem-- or, have the density of Manhattan and rely on taxi's and the Subway to get around.

[bic]

CSX, Florida reach deal on commuter rail

Orlando Sentinel Article

^ I had no idea we were so close to losing the commuter rail.

[JRS1]

CSX, Florida reach deal on commuter rail

Orlando Sentinel Article

^ I had no idea we were so close to losing the commuter rail.

wow. glad it went thru. obviously... can't wait to see how the development process moves forward from here.