SunRail

[JRS1]

^^

let's not start comparing the need for CRT to whether we should widen I-4.

We widen roads to create and maintain infrastrucutre to keep the companies we have and lure new ones here. CRT is part of that, not in lieu of it.

if someone would have told me 6 years ago to leave the former St. Johns I-4 bridge as is and instead get CRT, i would have said no freakin' way.

cities need both-- wide highways for commerce as well as rail. we've got rail up the wazoo for freight already.

whomever shot down the original 1997 proposal for LRT needs to be shot... this economy BS is screwing this proposal for CFRAIL every day that passes even more.

[RedStar25]

Besides the "Light Rail" and the unreasonable comparisons between CFRail and Amtrak ...

I must ask a few questions ...

We spend hundreds of millions on I-4. Is it "profitable?" We widen SR-50 ... is it "profitable?" They are currently widening Rouse Road ... Will it be "profitable?" Since when does a local government which is tasked to provide basic services (which includes transportation) ask will it be profitiable?" The question they should ask (and do) is, is it needed?" Do they provide police because it's profitable? Do they provide garbage collection because it's profitable?

It is unreaspnable to compare a company with employees and large overhead to a road.

If a rail system can not function on its own in the open market do we really need it?

Look at Orlando'd Amtrak station. It's a mess even tho the goverment constantly bails them out.

Why should I be forced to pay for a rail system I wont use (taxes)? Mass transit is great in large dense urban areas. Orlando is not that. It is a Southern Sprawl city.

Dont get me wrong I think it would be great for Orlando to have a rail system. I just want to see it work on its own.

[uncreativeusername]

Besides the "Light Rail" and the unreasonable comparisons between CFRail and Amtrak ...

I must ask a few questions ...

We spend hundreds of millions on I-4. Is it "profitable?" We widen SR-50 ... is it "profitable?" They are currently widening Rouse Road ... Will it be "profitable?" Since when does a local government which is tasked to provide basic services (which includes transportation) ask will it be profitiable?" The question they should ask (and do) is, is it needed?" Do they provide police because it's profitable? Do they provide garbage collection because it's profitable?

Great point. Profit is always relative term with regard to city finances. Infrastructure is often referred to as an investment not because there is a direct payoff for services, but because of the long term payoff for the community. Improved quality of life, although difficult to translate to a tangible monetary value, is a 'profit'.

Additionally, from a purely capitalistic perspective, smart growth, which good public transit facilitates, can and does result in direct savings for cities. I've heard the argument that if we let the market drive our transportation solutions, no businessman in his right mind would build a rail line, implying that the rail line isn't worth the cost. When you consider transit as simply a service of a much bigger operation, however, it becomes clear that the aforementioned analogy paints an incomplete picture. The profits to be made from a great transit system aren't necessarily going to come back directly to the rail system. They'll come back to police and fire forces, who will have higher density areas to service; local and state coffers can see an increased tax revenue due to a positive impact on land value. Good public transit is business-friendly, creating the potential to lure new companies to the area, increase current payrolls, and empower workers (particularly low-income workers) with better access to more jobs.

It's all about the indirect value added, which you only see when you look at the macro view of the entire government. A hotel, for example, might be spending a chunk of cash every day on a complimentary buffet breakfast, which clearly isn't an initial cash-positive transaction for the hotel. But if it results in more guests staying at the hotel, then of course it's a net positive.

And let's not argue over the fact that this rail line isn't the ultimate solution. It's a starting point, nothing more, nothing less. But there's certainly no chance of achieve effective mass transit if we never start. That hotel had to buy the table before they started the buffet...

As an additional note - I think it's extremely unfortunate that the people who stand to benefit most initially from improved mass transit (namely, low-income workers and families) have the smallest voice on the issue due to lack of resources. It's the single mom who spends two hours on buses each day to get to and from work that could be spending the extra time at home with her kid; the twenty-something-year-old who has to turn down a job because they can't afford a car, or to live close enough to walk or take the bus; the immigrant who can't enroll in the night school course in English because they can't get back from their job in time. I'm not saying that these folks' concerns are of any more importance than anyone else's - just that it's a shame that their voices are usually the last ones heard in political arguments like these.

And you know, I'm not going to say that I've accurately quantified the monetary value of every single benefit of this system and put it up against every single expense on a spreadsheet, but I haven't heard a complete and honest analysis from any of the naysayers either. I find that most of the argument against bettering our mass transit system has been coming from those with personal, one-track agendas, or just a general lack of the macro view.

[spenser1058]

Great point. Profit is always relative term with regard to city finances. Infrastructure is often referred to as an investment not because there is a direct payoff for services, but because of the long term payoff for the community. Improved quality of life, although difficult to translate to a tangible monetary value, is a 'profit'.

Additionally, from a purely capitalistic perspective, smart growth, which good public transit facilitates, can and does result in direct savings for cities. I've heard the argument that if we let the market drive our transportation solutions, no businessman in his right mind would build a rail line, implying that the rail line isn't worth the cost. When you consider transit as simply a service of a much bigger operation, however, it becomes clear that the aforementioned analogy paints an incomplete picture. The profits to be made from a great transit system aren't necessarily going to come back directly to the rail system. They'll come back to police and fire forces, who will have higher density areas to service; local and state coffers can see an increased tax revenue due to a positive impact on land value. Good public transit is business-friendly, creating the potential to lure new companies to the area, increase current payrolls, and empower workers (particularly low-income workers) with better access to more jobs.

It's all about the indirect value added, which you only see when you look at the macro view of the entire government. A hotel, for example, might be spending a chunk of cash every day on a complimentary buffet breakfast, which clearly isn't an initial cash-positive transaction for the hotel. But if it results in more guests staying at the hotel, then of course it's a net positive.

And let's not argue over the fact that this rail line isn't the ultimate solution. It's a starting point, nothing more, nothing less. But there's certainly no chance of achieve effective mass transit if we never start. That hotel had to buy the table before they started the buffet...

As an additional note - I think it's extremely unfortunate that the people who stand to benefit most initially from improved mass transit (namely, low-income workers and families) have the smallest voice on the issue due to lack of resources. It's the single mom who spends two hours on buses each day to get to and from work that could be spending the extra time at home with her kid; the twenty-something-year-old who has to turn down a job because they can't afford a car, or to live close enough to walk or take the bus; the immigrant who can't enroll in the night school course in English because they can't get back from their job in time. I'm not saying that these folks' concerns are of any more importance than anyone else's - just that it's a shame that their voices are usually the last ones heard in political arguments like these.

And you know, I'm not going to say that I've accurately quantified the monetary value of every single benefit of this system and put it up against every single expense on a spreadsheet, but I haven't heard a complete and honest analysis from any of the naysayers either. I find that most of the argument against bettering our mass transit system has been coming from those with personal, one-track agendas, or just a general lack of the macro view.

Bravo! For those who have never read both halves of "The Wealth of Nations," you captured it perfectly. If Adam Smith were with us today writing about transit, I believe his response would have looked much like this.

[RedStar25]

Again... Why should my hard earned money be taken from me and used for people who pay little or no taxes? This is America.... we all have the indivigual right to make our own personal situation work to our advangate.

How do you know that single mother is doing all she can to improve her situation? Assuming people are disadvantage is a disadvantage to them. Lets not victimize people to push a mass transit system that may or may not be sucsessfull.

[monsoon]

Again... Why should my hard earned money be taken from me and used for people who pay little or no taxes? This is America.... we all have the indivigual right to make our own personal situation work to our advangate.

How do you know that single mother is doing all she can to improve her situation? Assuming people are disadvantage is a disadvantage to them. Lets not victimize people to push a mass transit system that may or may not be sucsessfull.

This is a red herring argument. Unless you are arguing for no taxes at all then it is pointless in terms of discussing transportation issues. Your "individual rights" are based on being a member of a society that grants them to you and that society has decided that taxes are justified for all number of purposes. It couldn't exist without them.

I am always fascinated by this argument that "I should not be taxed for public transit". I can't think of a person in this country that doesn't benefit from the public highways, ports, train lines, airports, etc, all or part of which are supported by taxes.

Redstar if you want to sit in a cave and let the rest of the world be damned as long as you get yours, that is your individual right too, but the point of this topic is to discuss the CR in Orlando. Be thankful you live in a country where most don't feel this way. Please stick to this topic in the future and if you want to tell us why you don't like public transportation then fell free to start a topic in the coffee house.

[RedStar25]

This is a red herring argument. Unless you are arguing for no taxes at all then it is pointless in terms of discussing transportation issues. Your "individual rights" are based on being a member of a society that grants them to you and that society has decided that taxes are justified for all number of purposes. It couldn't exist without them.

I am always fascinated by this argument that "I should not be taxed for public transit". I can't think of a person in this country that doesn't benefit from the public highways, ports, train lines, airports, etc, all or part of which are supported by taxes.

Redstar if you want to sit in a cave and let the rest of the world be damned as long as you get yours, that is your individual right too, but the point of this topic is to discuss the CR in Orlando. Be thankful you live in a country where most don't feel this way. Please stick to this topic in the future and if you want to tell us why you don't like public transportation then fell free to start a topic in the coffee house.

Having a decenting opinion on the subject does not make me a "cave man". As I stated before I am all for commuter rail. I just want to see it be sucsessfull. What's wrong with that? Don't shoot me down just because I am trying to bring up a differnt point of view. However... why cant that single mother or the others use the bus? Wouldn't it be cheaper and more conveniant.

on a side note... we live in a society were our liberty is (dare I say) God given. The goverment does not grant me my rights.

[monsoon]

^Then lets have a discussion on what things are needed to make it successful. Discussions of taking your taxes because you are hard working (I am not even sure what that means) to build it, isn't going to accomplish those goals.

The same things where said about Charlotte's Light Rail line that opened last December. It has had its issues, mostly with incompetent management, but it is carrying upwards of 16,000 riders/day where the predictions called for it to only be carrying 9,600/day the first year. They are having to buy 4 more trains to help handle the loads. I've ridden on these trains many times and I can tell you that plenty of women with kids (and presumably some of them are single) are riding the trains. So are students, businessmen, office workers, construction workers, the elderly who don't want to drive, teenagers, yuppies, etc. It's used by all races and all demographics. It's a good cross section of people sharing the experience of these trains and it's something that just doesn't happen on buses.

[bulldogger]

I for one will use the commuter train, because I don't like driving as much as I used to even 5-10 years ago. I'm over it.

I like my experience every time I am visiting a city on vacation or business and have more mass transit options available. I like going from JFK airport to the core of the city and just pop up onto the streets in the middle of Manhattan after a 45 minute train ride through Brooklyn. I like getting off a plane at Logan and next thing you know I am getting off a train on the street at Haymarket and I can take a very short stroll to the North End and get a fresh canoli before checking in to my bed and breakfast.

I bet tourists would love to go from MCO to a transfer at Sand Lake and get downtown and check into a W (fingers crossed) at the corner of Central and Rosalind, drop off their bags, go for a walk to Thornton Park as they pass numerous species of swans (not every lake in our country has this many varieties of birds) while never having to go through the long lines to get their rental car.

I know I am one small voice in our region, but if the powers that be in Tallahassee can hear me... I will use the commuter rail train to go to other parts of my region that I would otherwise dismiss as too far. I support it and I will pay for my train passes. Quantify that in monetary values. You can't, but you can count one to the list of ridership.

Edited July 6, 2008 by bulldogger

[Boomer136]

Again... Why should my hard earned money be taken from me and used for people who pay little or no taxes? This is America.... we all have the individual right to make our own personal situation work to our advantage.

How do you know that single mother is doing all she can to improve her situation? Assuming people are disadvantage is a disadvantage to them. Lets not victimize people to push a mass transit system that may or may not be successful.

(Edited for spelling)

I am assuming you read uncreativeusername's post. First, I dismiss the idea that the profit motive and the free market always results in the best solution. I offer beta vs. VHS as just one example. Good ideas frequently are blocked by those who are making money hand over fist with the bad ideas. The 'let business do it' panacea call always had a ring of believing in Peter Pan to me. Running something like a business is good for a business, it is not for other things, like militaries and governments. If Appius Caecus had waited for some company to build the Roman Aqueduct, the water certainly would have come with a price tag at Circus Maximus if at all. Instead the whole society benefited.

Let me say, it is un-American and non-Christian to look to all interactions with the greater society around you as only a self-centered cost-benefit analysis. While I too part with my coin as a maid does her honor, unless a form of hedonism is involved that is, I know that my taxes from the sweat of my brow may take care of you should you need your house saved from fire, or your mother have a place to live out the aftermath of a paralyzing stroke. P.T. Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute. The con man and the 'rugged individual' preys or at least relies upon these 'rubes' who play by society's rules. RedStar25 you have been helped all your life by people, some you never met, many of whom died long before you were a fear in your mother's father's mind. As soon as you pay all those people back for the things you have been gifted or offered at small cost to you or your family, then you can whine about not being able fully use your 'personal situation' for which you finally could be solely responsible but which until then is shouldered by your fellow man.

I don't know if my words did you any good, but I feel better. Anyway, I just got back from a jaunt in Toronto. I had some time off, and because of their public inter modalities of subway, commuter train, street car, and bus I was able to venture far away from my hotel in downtown. We should have something for our tourists that locals could use as well.

[RedStar25]

Yes I am a horrific speller...

I just don't belive in socialism.... I belive in helping out anyone and every one I can because I know that many people have gone far out of their way to help me. I just dont belive its the goverments responsibility to do it for me (asides from the essential Firemen, police, ect...)

It used to be a matter of pride in this country to be self-reliant/self-sufficient.

oh and Monsoon... I work hard for the $231 that is pulled out of my pay check every week by the fedral goverment. Thats what I getting at.

getting back to light rail. SEPTA in Philly lost off of its goverment funding a few years ago. They had to do massive cut backs and lay offs. In addition to the cut backs they had to update their facilities. The stations and trains are now clean and run smoothly. Currently ridership is up and they are self-sufficient.

Will the C. F. light rail have to build large parking decks next to the stations?

[bulldogger]

If they do have to build parking garages, doesn't that almost imply that it won't be the "single mom's" that you inferred earlier would be using the commuter rail?

I think commuter rail will be used primarily by middle income workers. That is my opinion. I think it may still be too costly for the welfare types even if it only costs a few dollars more per trip.

[RedStar25]

You know, you might want to try out some of the more remote areas of South America. Down there there is little government interference, and not tax men to come bother you. There you can really be responsible for providing for yourself and not having to worry about spending taxes on anyone else. And you don't have all that Government bureaucracy and regulation holding up business and bringing down the economy. Of course, it is a lot of hard work to live without all those niceties like electricity and roads, but I think you might find it a lot closer to your ideal of self sufficiency.

You want roads, We want trains. Why do you get what you want and not us? Not everyone who rides a train or transit is a peasant.

I think there are many countries out there where the citizens would care to differ with you over how much control the government has over your rights.

Now this really does belong in the coffee house. Your responce is unnecessary, pointless, and highly ignorant. Please re-read what I and the others have written.

[neon9]

I like getting off a plane at Logan and next thing you know I am getting off a train on the street at Haymarket and I can take a very short stroll to the North End and get a fresh canoli before checking in to my bed and breakfast.

I bet tourists would love to go from MCO to a transfer at Sand Lake and get downtown and check into a W (fingers crossed) at the corner of Central and Rosalind, drop off their bags, go for a walk to Thornton Park as they pass numerous species of swans (not every lake in our country has this many varieties of birds) while never having to go through the long lines to get their rental car.

I just got back from Boston...man, do I wish I had a Cannoli from Mike's right now.

Seriously, most everyone else has said it much better than I could. However, I'll throw out my 2 cents. How is it fair that I have to pay for roads to, say, Lake Nona? Since someone is complaining about single mothers, can I complain about yuppies in townhomes? How is paying for paved roads and utilities to every single McMansion fair? Shouldn't they just have to carry themselves, and maybe their waste, to the nearest train station or parking lot if they insist on building miles from town? I think my taxes should be reduced and ALL roads be made toll roads....or the gas tax be raised by 1 to 2 dollars per gallon, which might still only cover federal and state roads....

What kind of person would imply that the only people taking public transit are 'single mothers' in the first place?

I hope this isn't too off topic because it doesn't look like there is much else to say about mass transit in Orlando.....at least nothing good. But don't worry, $4 a gallon gas hasn't hurt anyone, and I'm sure it won't last long....

[bulldogger]

But don't worry, $4 a gallon gas hasn't hurt anyone, and I'm sure it won't last long....

Hey Bic, how's the South Beach gas prices about now?

[FrigginGr8est]

Funny news story in NY/NJ today. A few years ago, NJ Transit wanted to build sidings for their train line in Bergen County so they can have 2 way service and more trains on the single track line. The towns along the line sued to stop the Authority from building them, so they werent built. Now, the same towns are begging NJ Transit to build the sidings because they now want more service due to high gas prices. Problem is, now NJ Transit doesnt have the money. Oh well. Hindsight, 20/20.

Edited July 8, 2008 by FrigginGr8est

[jack]

Arguing against Commuter Rail is like arguing against OPAC, the Arena and the Citrus Bowl. Many will never visit those venues and have no desire to. It is perfectly fine to argue against it based on a non profitably venture, but you must also feel the same way about the military, roads, public safety, and our venues.

Commuter Rail will benefit a certain number of people. Mostly White Collar Professionals. But regardless of who rides it, it is a service that will better our community.

[JRS1]

I was at ORMC yesterday afternoon to visit a client who had heart surgery. that place is a city within itself. CFRAIL is supposed to place a station there. been to FH South several times. translation... we need the CRT and we need it now.

[JRS1]

there is a public meeting on Aug. 6, 2008, being held to decide on the placement/design of the platforms for the CFRAIL station at the old depot on Church St. there's a sign on the depot itself. makes me wonder...

[spenser1058]

there is a public meeting on Aug. 6, 2008, being held to decide on the placement/design of the platforms for the CFRAIL station at the old depot on Church St. there's a sign on the depot itself. makes me wonder...

From today's Sentinel editorials:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinio...0,5253128.story

Commuter rail is still moving forward, just under the radar; look for it to surface after the elections. For the first time, there are very few in the central FL leadership structure (public and private) fighting this so I am cautiously optimistic. Paula pulled an end run, but it looks like steps are being taken to regroup and prevail.

[mgsports]

It might better then Lite Rail or so on.

[JRS1]

good article. I'm optimistic.

[lala67]

There's good reason to be optimistic. Sorry for the late reply, haven't been here in awhile. At any rate, while Dockery won a battle, she didn't win the war. Her little end around has put other communities that have existing rail and plans for rail service in a bit of a lurch b/c they need that same liability agreement in order to run their rails. These communities would be Tri-Rail in south FL and planned commuter rail hopefuls in Jax and Tampa. The state has until next summer to complete the deal and state officials could take the issue up again during the next regular session.

The best news of all about the recent session was that the funding stayed in place.

[JFW657]

More good news & reason for optimism on the commuter rail front.

As seen earlier today on channel 9.....

http://www.wftv.com/news/17159013/detail.html

[GregoryMCSE]

This will really and truly signify the END of commuter rail in Central Florida. Dockey and her evil band of trial lawyers will use this to fight in legislative item.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26680908/

Death toll rises to 17 in commuter train wreck

'Blood was everywhere' after head-on collision; about 135 people injured

LOS ANGELES - Emergency crews found more victims early Saturday, boosting the death toll to 17, as they delicately picked apart the mangled wreckage of a commuter train that collided head-on with a freight train on the same track.....