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601 Lake Michigan Dr (at Lexington) Project - West Side


GRDadof3

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We are looking forward to hearing back.  Comments?

Some really fantastic feedback here! There's a lot of interest in this property, such great visibility and such an eyesore right now.

 

So a bit of background information on me; I have zero planning industry experience, a fan of cities, architecture, neighborhoods and hoppy beer.

 

So when I joined the ASP process and eventually the SWAN board, I understood the ASP would be more of a guiding principle (as some of you have elluded to). I feel like input that our board received from the city and other NA's was that if you don't strictly follow to your ASP, it might as well not even exist. So I guess I'm sort of turned around on what it actually should be.

 

I was walking around our neighborhood on Monday, enjoying our glimpse of spring, and feel like this corner could support a significant presence (2.5+ stories) and taper towards Lexington (much like the 600 Douglas development).

 

Thank you again for this feedback, its given me a lot to consider.

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So if this one starts with 5 stories, compromises to 2.5 and thinks it will work, how does the proposal still get the axe?

 

The current design with 2.5 at sidewalk and 5 stories set back, is the developer's compromise. They feel that this current design is the only way the development will 'work'.

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Aaannnndd, you don't believe him?

 

I do believe him ... at the price he is offering the land for (which I believe to be inflated).

 

I'm not ready to let this project walk away, wheras I feel that some of my fellow board members would rather have a vacant lot than anything.

 

Rock. Me. Hard place.

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ASP's are great and all but at the end of the day, they're just tools to guide development "wishes." Certain land costs drive certain types of development, plain and simple. Why has there been very little NEW private development in downtown in quite a while? You guessed it, land costs are too high.

You have it a little backwards.  land costs are determined by development potential.  A seller will ask whatever he (or she) wants for a piece of property, case in point the strip joint on Market.  ultimately though, the sale price will be determined by what a developer will be able to make off of a property. if a developer will work with a thinner margin or a larger, more profitable development then they will be able to pay more for a parcel.  

 

bottom line is that there are a number of sellers with unrealistic expectations regarding the value of their land. ASPs in this case devalue the land. they drive the development and consequently the value. this can be good or bad depending on the goals of the neighborhood. Eventually the seller will come to his/her senses and sell at a reduced price, that or a developer will get creative enough to pay what they (the seller) want and still make money.

 

Ideally, the city would tax vacant parcels at a higher rate, one that reflects what the sellers want for the land. this would incentivize (is that even a word?) property squatting trolls to either develop the land or sell it to someone who will develop it, rather than sit on a key parcel for years waiting for an idiot developer to overpay cash (since no bank will make a loan for a loser investment) for their land.  

 

Sorry about the grammar, i've been awake for about 30 straight hours.

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You have it a little backwards.  land costs are determined by development potential.  A seller will ask whatever he (or she) wants for a piece of property, case in point the strip joint on Market.  ultimately though, the sale price will be determined by what a developer will be able to make off of a property. if a developer will work with a thinner margin or a larger, more profitable development then they will be able to pay more for a parcel.  

 

bottom line is that there are a number of sellers with unrealistic expectations regarding the value of their land. ASPs in this case devalue the land. they drive the development and consequently the value. this can be good or bad depending on the goals of the neighborhood. Eventually the seller will come to his/her senses and sell at a reduced price, that or a developer will get creative enough to pay what they (the seller) want and still make money.

 

Ideally, the city would tax vacant parcels at a higher rate, one that reflects what the sellers want for the land. this would incentivize (is that even a word?) property squatting trolls to either develop the land or sell it to someone who will develop it, rather than sit on a key parcel for years waiting for an idiot developer to overpay cash (since no bank will make a loan for a loser investment) for their land.  

 

Sorry about the grammar, i've been awake for about 30 straight hours.

 

I understand that development potential drives land values. Just getting a property rezoned can drive up the value to comp with other similar properties that have sold. Just getting a property annexed into a certain school district can also almost double the value of land in some cases (I've seen it happen).

 

My point though was if a parcel downtown is $3 Million for an acre, it drives the development potential. You certainly can't build a bunch of townshouses on that land, no matter how creative you get (at least, not in West Michigan where you won't sell townhouses for $Millions). You have to go vertical until the numbers work, combined with providing the subsequent amount of parking and amenities on the property.

 

I agree that there are quite a few landowners with unrealistic expectations for the land value. But they're pricing it at those levels based on other land sales downtown, which are being drive by the Devos's (who can afford to overpay cash for land), Spectrum, MSU and other institutions who don't have the same set of standards and expectations of ROI that a developer and his or her investors have. It all really started with the sale of the Burger King on Michigan Street that Spectrum bought, which I believe was the highest price per acre ever paid in West Michigan up until that point IIRC. I think it might actually get to a point where it will restrict growth in the city, and it's even beginning to happen in the suburbs as well.

 

That's why I chuckle when I see the Zimmerman Volk studies claiming that thousands of new residential units will be added to the Michigan Street area in the next 5 years. Maybe if you leveled blocks of homes and businesses in the area at dirt cheap prices.

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Planning Commission April 10 at 2:20 pm – 134, 140, and 144 Lexington Avenue NW; and 601, 615 and 621 Lake Michigan Drive NW (Zone Change) (PC-ZON-2014-0019)

The request of Cherry Street Capital (Chad G. Barton) to rezone the subject properties from TN-LDR Traditional Neighborhood–Low-Density Residential to Special District–Planned Redevelopment District (PRD) to facilitate the construction of a mixed-use commercial and residential development consisting of 63 apartments and ~10,000 sq. ft. of commercial space.  This request will be evaluated by the Planning Commission for compliance with the standards of Sections 5.7.06., 5.12.12., and 5.12.14. of the Zoning Ordinance, as well as the purpose and intent of the Master Plan.    

 

http://www.swangr.org/home

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SWAN is worried that developments like this will further perpetuate the move from single family ownerhip to rental properties in that area. In other news, Byron Township can barely keep up with the pace of construction of single family homes. SWAN you're about 30 years too late.

 

Funny, they admit it's already mostly rentals.

 

From the SWAN website - 'With the college nearby much of the residential homes are renter occupied.'

 

http://www.swangr.org/project-definition/history-of-swan-neighborhood

SWAN board of directors - http://www.swangr.org/project-definition/board-of-directors

 

I see at least one vacancy :)

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I used to work in the SWAN neighborhood (probably fifteen years ago). I had some extra time to drive around the neighborhood and I have to say, I think it's only gotten worse in the last 15 years. There is a lot of potential for this area, but in my opinion SWAN would rather have it decay than progress. 

 

Joe

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  • 2 months later...

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/07/will_plan_for_this_vacant_parc.html#incart_river_default

 

Looks like it's making progress.   Typical westsider BS when it comes to change.   The lady quoted saying that a project like this would "bring Detroit to the westside."   I think she speaks for all ignorant westside c****.    Market rate housing going for $1800/mo god forbid the horrible clientele it'll attract.   I get that SWAN got advisement on how to write up their plan,   but they went somewhere that advised them change was bad.   I hope the city forces them to have this change and forces them to rethink what's good and bad.  I feel strongly that more infill like this will only bring property values up.  Any arguement to the contrary is intellectually dishonest fear-mongering by people who hate change.    I just wish those people didn't have to be the loudest. 

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http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/07/will_plan_for_this_vacant_parc.html#incart_river_default

 

Looks like it's making progress.   Typical westsider BS when it comes to change.   The lady quoted saying that a project like this would "bring Detroit to the westside."   I think she speaks for all ignorant westside c****.    Market rate housing going for $1800/mo god forbid the horrible clientele it'll attract.   I get that SWAN got advisement on how to write up their plan,   but they went somewhere that advised them change was bad.   I hope the city forces them to have this change and forces them to rethink what's good and bad.  I feel strongly that more infill like this will only bring property values up.  Any arguement to the contrary is intellectually dishonest fear-mongering by people who hate change.    I just wish those people didn't have to be the loudest. 

 

Depends on what part of Detroit you're talking about. If it brought Midtown Detroit to that area, that'd be a 1000% improvement. :) I'm sure that's not what she meant though, which makes her loco en la cabeza.

 

Wow, Matt Vandebunte posted these comments from the hearing as well:

 

"...from a 30-something Grand Rapidian: “This is the type of development we want to see in our city for years to come. It’s what’s right for the city.”

from a long-time West Side resident: “If you want to make it like Chicago, move to Chicago. Leave us alone.”

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This kind of NIMBYism makes my head explode. This person is afraid that a $15 million dollar development will turn the west side into Detroit? I don't even understand the correlation (or what her point she's trying to make). Mind blown.

 

Joe

If you cant reason with a person intellectually, appeal to their emotions. 

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The thing that drives me the most nuts is that the neighborhoods that are being targeted in the west side are the ones where the houses are dingy and mostly rentals and they aren't quaint at all.   Why would these people fight so hard to keep it that way.   The west side has the potential and infrastructure to be the coolest neighborhood in the city if not for it's bumf*** long term property owners.

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