Twelve Weston (Formerly known as 35 and 41 S Division)

[wingbert]

Speculation is rampant regarding the 7 GR police personnel on site right now. Multiple forensic units. Appears to be some remains of unknown origin found along the Republic exterior wall.

 

Now yous guys knows what happens to any wise guys what fancies demselves a whistleblower at Universal Forest Products.

[ironyisadeadscene]

The finally found Hoffa.

[localtalent]

Question for the group:

 

In your opinion, what would be considered 'appropriate' height at this site (ie a range of x to y stories would fit)?

 

What would be 'ideal' height (ie to support increased density in the core, while still respecting the historical nature of the neighborhood, a potential development should be x stories)?

 

Assume you'd get good design regardless of the size....

[GRDadof3]

Question for the group:

 

In your opinion, what would be considered 'appropriate' height at this site (ie a range of x to y stories would fit)?

 

What would be 'ideal' height (ie to support increased density in the core, while still respecting the historical nature of the neighborhood, a potential development should be x stories)?

 

Assume you'd get good design regardless of the size....

 

 

Gallery on Fulton is effectively about 12 - 13 stories, 20 Fulton East will be about 13 stories, 38 Commerce is 8 stories.

 

I would say anywhere from 10 - 15 stories. Footprint is about 13 - 14,000 sf, so you'd have probably 3 - 4 floors of parking, probably some underground, 10 stories of mixed use above. It'd be a pretty good sized project.

[joeDowntown]

I'd like to see something in the 10-12 story range. Build some density in that area and hopefully attract redevelopment of the old cybernet building.

[GRDadof3]

A little due diligence/soil testing. That's usually a good sign. Wonder if we'll see something on the Brownfield agenda this Spring.

 

[GRDadof3]

It's coming...12 stories...

[joeDowntown]

That's awesome. And more details? I walk past the hole every morning. Something nice (and big) in this spot could help anchor this section of Division.

Joe

[GR_Urbanist]

12 stories definitely says this will be a liner building like the one directly behind it (32 Commerce?). They will have to put the parking somewhere.

 

Cant wait to see the renderings!

[GRDadof3]

12 stories definitely says this will be a liner building like the one directly behind it (32 Commerce?). They will have to put the parking somewhere.

 

Cant wait to see the renderings!

 

I'm not sure the footprint is large enough to do a liner building. It's not nearly as large as 38 Commerce. I bet it will be ground floor retail, several floors of parking, and whatever else above. 

 

[GRCentro]

I'm not sure the footprint is large enough to do a liner building. It's not nearly as large as 38 Commerce. I bet it will be ground floor retail, several floors of parking, and whatever else above. 

 

 

 

Yep. Retail, parking, office tower. Looks good. Like a less dystopian Gallery on Fulton.

[GRDadof3]

Yep. Retail, parking, office tower. Looks good. Like a less dystopian Gallery on Fulton.

 

 

Whoa, blast from the past. Welcome back GRCentro.  

 

That's kinda what I had heard. They were supposed to go before the HPC last month but pulled their application apparently. Back this month. 

[GRDadof3]

It will be interesting to see if they incorporate the ad on the side of Republic into the design? Glass wall looking out on it? 

[GRDadof3]

Yep. Retail, parking, office tower. Looks good. Like a less dystopian Gallery on Fulton.

 

Less dystopian is a good word. Goes before the HPC this Wednesday at 5:00. I was told this is just an "informal" rendering/discussion and not the final plans. 

 

With Gallery, 20 Fulton East and this project, it will be a cluster of mid-rises kind of like the intersection of Monroe Center and Ionia. 

 

 

[GR_Urbanist]

It's good even if not the 100% official look.

 

Not blow you away awesome for sure. The lower portion's slot windows in the 21st century are downright depressing to be honest.

But the upper part makes up for that. They could also make the elevator shaft/stairway a bit more attractive.

 

It gets the job done, and wont cause the HPC to have a meltdown I suppose.

[joeDowntown]

I like what I see. I like that street level blends in with existing architecture on the street. Interesting to see the scale compared to 38. 

 

You're right. This development, the Gallery and Karl Chew's development will give this a nice little mid-rise cluster in this area. 

 

Joe

[Jippy]

The Weston side of the parking garage is the only part that I have issue with. It needs some more articulation, or variation so it is more than a red brick wall with a couple of ventilation windows punched through.

[x99]

Gosh, who would have predicted something not half as attractive as what was ripped down?  Oh, right.  I did.  This is not good architecture, in my opinion.  Not that I expected anything less.  I refuse to give "credit" for tossing in four floors of brick.  Big deal.  Century old factory buildings have more ground-level character and interest than this.  And I won't even get started on the top of this piece of garbage.   Some seem to really like the glass castle look.  To each his own, I suppose.

 

Is there really such a massive lack of architectural talent, particularly when given the opportunity to design something for a so-called "historic" district?  Why must it be that when we look at the hundred year old buildings we comment about how beautiful they are, but when we look at the ones, the word "beauty" never seems to enter into the mix? 

 

Advice to architects:  In 100 years, will anyone give a crap about what you did?  Will you be mentioned in the same sentence as noted Grand Rapids architects like Robinson & Campau?  If not, why not start putting out a little effort.

[GRDadof3]

Less dystopian is a good word. Goes before the HPC this Wednesday at 5:00. I was told this is just an "informal" rendering/discussion and not the final plans. 

 

With Gallery, 20 Fulton East and this project, it will be a cluster of mid-rises kind of like the intersection of Monroe Center and Ionia. 

 

 

 

Probably have to look at it in sections. My guess is the 4 story brick portion is screened parking. And those aren't windows but rather openings for venting, like the Monroe Center ramp. Active use on the main floor, as is required for something like this.

 

Moving to the next portion, it has sort of an "International Style" look to it, with the ground floor of the office portion stepped in at the "lobby level." Seems unnecessary, unless it's to make the patio bigger?

 

Running the brick all the way up the elevator tower does accomplish the goal of tying the two structures together, but brick all the way up? I'd be happier with just metal sheathing. It seems like I've only seen the projects in Chicago that ran brick all the way up their elevator towers, and I don't think that's a good look to go for in a Class A office structure. 

 

Otherwise I like the scale and massing of it. I'm a fan of glass too, particularly semi-transparent glass.

 

This design was put out to foster "informal discussion," so there ya go!

[x99]

This design was put out to foster "informal discussion," so there ya go!

 

Informally, then, I could sketch something better on the back of a napkin in half an hour.  Once you get into a 12 story building, there is so much opportunity to use the verticality of the structure to great advantage.  Instead, we get cut and paste stack jobs.  Construction cost savings?  I doubt anything, particularly when the initial and ongoing maintenance costs of building walls of glass is factored in. 

 

I just need to stop having high hopes for having buildings that are actually sustainable, insofar as they don't have an excess of glass and someone won't want to tear them down again in 30 years because the design became dated the day it was built.  Wasn't almost everything built in the Urban Renewal zone a lesson enough?

[GR_Urbanist]

Informally, then, I could sketch something better on the back of a napkin in half an hour.  Once you get into a 12 story building, there is so much opportunity to use the verticality of the structure to great advantage.  Instead, we get cut and paste stack jobs.  Construction cost savings?  I doubt anything, particularly when the initial and ongoing maintenance costs of building walls of glass is factored in. 

 

I just need to stop having high hopes for having buildings that are actually sustainable, insofar as they don't have an excess of glass and someone won't want to tear them down again in 30 years because the design became dated the day it was built.  Wasn't almost everything built in the Urban Renewal zone a lesson enough?

 

Believe me, I've given up long ago on GR ever getting any of the exciting architecture that I see in Architectural Record, or anything that tries to make an effort. It's the combo of the HPC's obsession with everything looking old and a lack of talent and ambition locally. People in GR freak out when they see anything that reeks of "too forward-thinking".

 

It's a meh building, but most projects seem to be that around here if you ever want it to get approved.

Edited February 2, 2015 by GR_Urbanist

[Veloise]

...

Running the brick all the way up the elevator tower does accomplish the goal of tying the two structures together, but brick all the way up?...

Likely they saved the old brick from the tear-down.

[GRCentro]

Believe me, I've given up long ago on GR ever getting any of the exciting architecture that I see in Architectural Record, or anything that tries to make an effort. It's the combo of the HPC's obsession with everything looking old and a lack of talent and ambition locally. People in GR freak out when they see anything that reeks of "too forward-thinking".

 

It's a meh building, but most projects seem to be that around here if you ever want it to get approved.

 

HPC doesn't have an obsession with "everything looking old", as far as I can tell. Their mandate is to interpret and enforce federally dictated standards for the treatment of designated historic structures and districts. In a nutshell: preserve what already exists, replace like with like, and permit only those alterations which are truly unavoidable and do not detract from the existing character. This project is a bit more complex, perhaps, because it is new construction in a historic district. In this case the standards describe that such a building both 1) be compatible with the existing character of place and 2) be clearly differentiated from other older structures in order to avoid confusion about its time of origin.

 

A difficult order, really. Something that neither a pure classicist design nor some cutting edge magazine starchitecture can successfully accomplish.  You can tell the architect is really trying to straddle over both conditions. And good for them for requesting an advisory discussion with HPC well in advance of a formal hearing. 

 

As with most things, the devil is in the details. The early renderings don't tell us much other than general scale, massing and some implied materials. 

 

Real brick? Or prefab panels? How will the mortar joints be treated? Limestone sills, like the previous buildings? The fenestration on the parking ramp makes sense, but how will the windows be screened? What will be the glass color and reflectivity of the tower? Mullion detailing? Shadow lines? What will be the pedestrian experience, both near and far?

 

These are the questions HPC must consider. And, of course, compliance with the federal standards doesn't guarantee good design, be it traditional or contemporary or a watered-down version of both. An evaluation of "good" isn't what the Commission exists to accomplish.

[joeDowntown]

I think you guys are being a bit harsh for an informal rendering.

X99 - if love to see you set a 39 minute timer and show us your skills. You can design something better in 30 minutes. By all means, let's see it.

[GRDadof3]

I think you guys are being a bit harsh for an informal rendering.

X99 - if love to see you set a 39 minute timer and show us your skills. You can design something better in 30 minutes. By all means, let's see it.

I travel to Denver quite frequently and am see much less inspiring buildings going no up all over. I think the grass is always greener for the hyper critical.

Joe

 

 

I agree. Most buildings are just "buildings," not necessarily trying to make a statement (which is more often than not, the architect making a statement about his own big ego, usually men).

 

At least they did a way better job of screening the parking than Arena Place did.

 

I too would love to see what x-99 likes.