Possibly moving to Charlotte - Some questions and observations

[elrodvt]

thanks for the history lesson's guys. I didn't realize < 20000 lived downtown. Still, I used to live in a small town, Burlington VT, which had a lot more vibrant downtown with a core population about the same. I suppose it's fair that a large differentiator is there was not a south end and noda poaching from it. Also, I believe they had tons of programs in place to attract and subsidize small businesses moving in. Does Charlotte? It seems even 20K people should justify a couple places opening on a Sunday for breakfast if the rents could be made to work. Maybe some special zoning is required? Sorry I'm not an urban planner and don't know what tools can be brought to bear if the will was even there to do so. 

 

With the two large apartment buildings opening by the ballpark and all the foot traffic the ballpark drives 6 months a year you would think there is opportunity to open some retail and restaurants nearby. I wish one of the breweries would fill in one of the gaps along north tryon. I heard one of the brewers might be coming into downtown?

 

Someone mentioned showmars right outside my door and that's true (although not open on Sunday). I'm a bit snooty that way and try to not eat at chains so have ignored them so far. I'll have to give in soon and eat there though. better than nothing right and at least they're a local chain!

[Niner National]

Check out Valhalla for breakfast. It is across the street from the park. They have decent breakfast and they serve it all day. They don't open until 11 though. If you're an early riser that isn't going to work. 

 

You could also check out Crispy Crepe. It's not downtown, but it is right on the light rail line in SouthEnd. If you're a biker, you could bike there in probably 5 minutes from where you live.

Green's Lunch is also open only a couple blocks from your condo. It is a no frills breakfast, but they do open at 9:30 on Saturday morning. Cheap and satisfying if you're just looking for a basic breakfast.

[grodney]

 

Someone mentioned showmars right outside my door and that's true (although not open on Sunday). I'm a bit snooty that way and try to not eat at chains so have ignored them so far. I'll have to give in soon and eat there though. better than nothing right and at least they're a local chain!

 

Showmars is very much a "greasy spoon" diner.  Not fancy at all.  Set your expectations accordingly.

 

Midnight Diner, an urban walk (or very short light rail ride) away, has a much bigger and diverse menu.

[ah59396]

thanks for the history lesson's guys. I didn't realize < 20000 lived downtown. Still, I used to live in a small town, Burlington VT, which had a lot more vibrant downtown with a core population about the same. I suppose it's fair that a large differentiator is there was not a south end and noda poaching from it. Also, I believe they had tons of programs in place to attract and subsidize small businesses moving in. Does Charlotte? It seems even 20K people should justify a couple places opening on a Sunday for breakfast if the rents could be made to work. Maybe some special zoning is required? Sorry I'm not an urban planner and don't know what tools can be brought to bear if the will was even there to do so. 

 

With the two large apartment buildings opening by the ballpark and all the foot traffic the ballpark drives 6 months a year you would think there is opportunity to open some retail and restaurants nearby. I wish one of the breweries would fill in one of the gaps along north tryon. I heard one of the brewers might be coming into downtown?

 

Someone mentioned showmars right outside my door and that's true (although not open on Sunday). I'm a bit snooty that way and try to not eat at chains so have ignored them so far. I'll have to give in soon and eat there though. better than nothing right and at least they're a local chain!

 

The good thing is, it can only get better.  Woodfield on Graham, Element Uptown, Skyhouse 1 (hopefully we get 2) are only adding more bodies into the core, which I believe can only mean more demand for the amenities you (and the rest of us for that matter) desire.  A 7-11 is about to open in the bottom of Catalyst, which should be something a large city doesn't get excited about.  But until the Walgreens opened in the Epicenter a couple years ago, there was not a single store (as far as I knew) open in uptown late night that wasn't a bar or eatery.  So again, it's getting there, it's just got a ways to go.  It can only get better.

[elrodvt]

The good thing is, it can only get better.  Woodfield on Graham, Element Uptown, Skyhouse 1 (hopefully we get 2) are only adding more bodies into the core, which I believe can only mean more demand for the amenities you (and the rest of us for that matter) desire.  A 7-11 is about to open in the bottom of Catalyst, which should be something a large city doesn't get excited about.  But until the Walgreens opened in the Epicenter a couple years ago, there was not a single store (as far as I knew) open in uptown late night that wasn't a bar or eatery.  So again, it's getting there, it's just got a ways to go.  It can only get better.

Hah, actually a 7-11 is big for me as another complaint is the only credit union downtown is Truliant which doesn't cooperate with my credit union. But, my credit union provides free atm access at any 7-11! I guess you know you live in a commercial banking capital when you can't find an atm that works with your credit union card.

[CLTProductions]

The good thing is, it can only get better.  Woodfield on Graham, Element Uptown, Skyhouse 1 (hopefully we get 2) are only adding more bodies into the core, which I believe can only mean more demand for the amenities you (and the rest of us for that matter) desire.  A 7-11 is about to open in the bottom of Catalyst, which should be something a large city doesn't get excited about.  But until the Walgreens opened in the Epicenter a couple years ago, there was not a single store (as far as I knew) open in uptown late night that wasn't a bar or eatery.  So again, it's getting there, it's just got a ways to go.  It can only get better.

I don't know if 7-11 should be remotely worth getting excited about. The one over here at Gateway can be bad news. It has brought more "sketchiness" to the area than there was before. I am not a fan.

[Urbanity]

 "sketchiness"

Oh Noes!   not the code word "sketchiness"   

 

Edit - And by that I mean it's delicious that in the same thread there was a little heat about Charlotte being unintentionally slammed as not a "real" city there is a worry the wrong people may be coming to it.   My definition of a real city is that all are not only attracted to it but can be seen in it.   When I say all - I include those that some might label as "sketchy".   Hell - I'm from the age of punk rock and just thinking how many older people thought my kind were "sketchy" and shouldn't be in the city is sort of laughable when you think punk gave cities soul in a lot of places.

 

Don't mean this all as a personal attack btw - I just can't stand the idea that the fight for making Charlotte feel like a real city is so it can be a sanitized disney one...

[CLTProductions]

Oh Noes!   not the code word "sketchiness"   

 

Edit - And by that I mean it's delicious that in the same thread there was a little heat about Charlotte being unintentionally slammed as not a "real" city there is a worry the wrong people may be coming to it.   My definition of a real city is that all are not only attracted to it but can be seen in it.   When I say all - I include those that some might label as "sketchy".   Hell - I'm from the age of punk rock and just thinking how many older people thought my kind were "sketchy" and shouldn't be in the city is sort of laughable when you think punk gave cities soul in a lot of places.

 

Don't mean this all as a personal attack btw - I just can't stand the idea that the fight for making Charlotte feel like a real city is so it can be a sanitized disney one...

Look I am all for character and diversity. But when it affects the safety, and perception of an area its effect is undeniable. It wasn't code for anything other than the fact that I have certainly noticed more bums around Gateway since it's opening as well as an increase in crime which is noted in the Goat Wagon. Now this may CERTAINLY be coincidence as to the timing, and its very possible. My only point is 7-11 is nice that its 24/7 and a 24/7 city here would be great......there is a downside to that though.

 

I'd rather Charlotte keep its reputation of a clean and safe city than gain a reputation as a "real" city.

[Urbanity]

Again - I didn't mean as a personal insult so my apologies if that came out wrong.  That said - I have freidns that live that way and not a single one has noticed any increase in crime.  I think we as humans don't like to feel uncomfortable and project our fears over the actual reality. 

 

As far as this:  "I'd rather Charlotte keep its reputation of a clean and safe city than gain a reputation as a "real" city."   We will just have to disagree.  It's not that I want an unsafe city - I just don't think 24/7 places make it one. 

[DMann]

Asbury in The Dunhill has great breakfasts and lunches on the corner of 6th and Tryon.

[CLTProductions]

Again - I didn't mean as a personal insult so my apologies if that came out wrong.  That said - I have freidns that live that way and not a single one has noticed any increase in crime.  I think we as humans don't like to feel uncomfortable and project our fears over the actual reality. 

 

As far as this:  "I'd rather Charlotte keep its reputation of a clean and safe city than gain a reputation as a "real" city."   We will just have to disagree.  It's not that I want an unsafe city - I just don't think 24/7 places make it one. 

I didnt take it personally and I agree that 24/7 doesn't equal crime, all I am saying is that having lived in Gateway for 3.5 years....I have noticed a difference since 7-11 opened. That's all.

[elrodvt]

Asbury in The Dunhill has great breakfasts and lunches on the corner of 6th and Tryon.

Wow, great tip on Asbury, had no idea it was there. Even open on Sunday and opens early.

Personally I think most of the southern "cities" are "clean and safe". and antiseptic and no place I want to be. With diversity will come some types some people don't like. can't have a vibrant city without that.

[ah59396]

Charlotte needs a little grit.  It can still be clean and safe, but it's got to have some sort of edge to it!

[Boricua]

More than anything it is dollars.

 

Charlotte's urban fabric was destroyed in the 60's and 70's. Almost all of the streetfront buildings were destroyed. A few wealthy individuals in the city, most notably Hugh McColl (the founder of Nations Bank, which would later become BoA) wanted to rebuild Uptown Charlotte. The problem though is that their vision was tall skyscrapers and arts and cultural amenities. Their focus wasn't on providing retail or anything of that nature because nobody lived in downtown. I think more than anything, they just wanted to make Uptown a place that was visually (if not functionally) impressive to business associates that they'd bring to the city.

 

Today, there is a little more focus on putting retail in new buildings, but usually only minimal effort is given. Financing is difficult for retail and rent prices have to be very high for it to make financial sense. Small businesses can't afford it and most major retailers have a presence at South Park (6 miles away) and Northlake Mall (9 miles away). Both are an easy drive and Uptown itself still has less than 20,000 residents. If you drew a three mile radius around Uptown, you probably have 150,000 people, but virtually all of them have cars and can drive to South Park or Northlake Mall in 10-15 minutes.

 

It has been exciting to see Charlotte grow and we are all glad to see an increasing focus on urban infill, but the reality is that Charlotte is still a really horrible place to live for someone that wants a truly urban lifestyle.

 

Some of the new Uptown projects, like the Crescent project proposed for S. Tryon Street should help with retail a bit, but I honestly wouldn't expect to see much in the way of retail in Uptown for decades.

 

As the population in Uptown increases, we'll see more restaurants that currently only open M-F during lunch be open all day, but right now it isn't really justified. We're already seeing an improvement in this area on S. Tryon. North Tryon is more corporate with less going on in the evenings, largely because of the large empty tracts of land on the east side of N. Tryon Street. Having the homeless shelter on N. Tryon I feel has also held this area back some. I see far more homeless people wandering around and begging on N. Tryon than I do in other areas of Uptown. I'm hopeful that the two Skyhouse buildings being constructed there will start a renaissance in that part of Uptown. It'll bring probably 1,000- 1,200 or so new residents in a single block. That's a pretty big change.

 

To put into perspective what happened to Charlotte (and a big part of the reason why retail does not exist today), here is Uptown in 1966:

 

 

The skyline isn't impressive at all, but notice all the streetfront buildings. Virtually no parking lots in the picture.

 

Here is Uptown in 1975:

 

 

You could successfully graze cattle in this setting if you wanted to.

 

The 9 years that separated 1966  from 1975 destroyed much of Charlotte's physical history.

When I see those pics I always wonder, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?! I cant think it was just Urban Renewal. Was uptown really that dilapidated by the '60s that city and biz leaders just said F@#K IT WE STARTING OVER BOYS!!!

[elrodvt]

Urban planning back then consisted mainly of figuring out how to tear down buildings so highways could have straight runs through the middle of the city. I listened to a NPR story on how it was just luck an interstate didn't run through Manhattan.

 

I just moved from Denver and they apparently had the same thing happen there.

Now they are working on burying highways to re-unite neighborhoods.  

They were also just lucky in that the huge warehouse district was mainly left to rot and was ripe to redevelop into the now vibrant ball park and LoDo areas.

 

Could Charlotte ever tear down or bury the incredibly ugly 277? It feels like you're within the walls of a prison or something.

I guess in one way it could unintentionally be a positive as it should focus all development within the boundaries of it?

Although zoning & incentives would be a more effective method!

 

If I want to understand how charlottes leaders are fostering downtown growth where would I listen in?

Is there any thought to slowing development in the outlying neighborhoods such as south end, middlewood, elizabeth etc.. until downtown meets certain targets?

Sorry for the dumb questions, still trying to get my bearings and understand what people think the goals and priorities are.

[CLTProductions]

Urban planning back then consisted mainly of figuring out how to tear down buildings so highways could have straight runs through the middle of the city. I listened to a NPR story on how it was just luck an interstate didn't run through Manhattan.

 

I just moved from Denver and they apparently had the same thing happen there.

Now they are working on burying highways to re-unite neighborhoods.  

They were also just lucky in that the huge warehouse district was mainly left to rot and was ripe to redevelop into the now vibrant ball park and LoDo areas.

 

Could Charlotte ever tear down or bury the incredibly ugly 277? It feels like you're within the walls of a prison or something.

I guess in one way it could unintentionally be a positive as it should focus all development within the boundaries of it?

Although zoning & incentives would be a more effective method!

 

If I want to understand how charlottes leaders are fostering downtown growth where would I listen in?

Is there any thought to slowing development in the outlying neighborhoods such as south end, middlewood, elizabeth etc.. until downtown meets certain targets?

Sorry for the dumb questions, still trying to get my bearings and understand what people think the goals and priorities are.

I would love to see 277 capped, as most cities are moving in that direction I don't think its unrealistic. It is to note a VAST majority of major cities in the US have "loop" highways.

[nonillogical]

Urban planning back then consisted mainly of figuring out how to tear down buildings so highways could have straight runs through the middle of the city. I listened to a NPR story on how it was just luck an interstate didn't run through Manhattan.

 

I just moved from Denver and they apparently had the same thing happen there.

Now they are working on burying highways to re-unite neighborhoods.  

They were also just lucky in that the huge warehouse district was mainly left to rot and was ripe to redevelop into the now vibrant ball park and LoDo areas.

 

Could Charlotte ever tear down or bury the incredibly ugly 277? It feels like you're within the walls of a prison or something.

I guess in one way it could unintentionally be a positive as it should focus all development within the boundaries of it?

Although zoning & incentives would be a more effective method!

 

If I want to understand how charlottes leaders are fostering downtown growth where would I listen in?

Is there any thought to slowing development in the outlying neighborhoods such as south end, middlewood, elizabeth etc.. until downtown meets certain targets?

Sorry for the dumb questions, still trying to get my bearings and understand what people think the goals and priorities are.

There is a thread here all about the idea of capping (or removing) 277. It has been proposed and there are even some artist renderings of different plans. I am more in favor of a cap, since I feel that 277's existence, though not executed in the most urban way, is an asset to uptown overall at this point.

 

For now though, I just don't think a cap is a high priority until we use up the available sites within the loop and we clearly have a ways to go on that. We might look at it as a positive one day when we have a much more focused, compact downtown since it constrained most development within that area. Some exits and onramps were reconfigured a few years ago to free up more developable space around Brevard/Stonewall, and I would no longer really mind 277/Brookshire's existence if we build right up to them and make pedestrian and cycling improvements to all the bridges and underpasses. 

 

As to your question about slowing down development in the other inner ring neighborhoods (South End, Elizabeth, PM, NoDa etc) I don't think you'll find much support for that idea, as most of us feel that that's where Charlotte's true character and many of its gems are and we are excited to see expansion there. 

[Urbanity]

When I see those pics I always wonder, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?! I cant think it was just Urban Renewal. Was uptown really that dilapidated by the '60s that city and biz leaders just said F@#K IT WE STARTING OVER BOYS!!!

 

 

Urban planning back then consisted mainly of figuring out how to tear down buildings so highways could have straight runs through the middle of the city. I listened to a NPR story on how it was just luck an interstate didn't run through Manhattan.

 

No - kidding!   Anyone who wants a history lesson should look up what almost became of downtown Manhattan with Robert Moses' planned ten lane elevated freeway that would have destroyed the West and East Village directly (two of the most urban, dense, and yet pedestrian favorite parts of the city).

 

Re: 277 cap discussion - it has been a discussion point for years and as mentioned by nonillogical - has it's own thread regarding the subject which can provide a lot of context of past, current, and future plans. 

[tozmervo]

There have also been high-level proposals to turn the Berkshire Fwy (277 from Independence Blvd to 77) into a Boulevard-style road. I think this would have a far more profound effect on Uptown than capping 277 in the South, but it otherwise doesn't have any traction at this point.

[jednc]

There have also been high-level proposals to turn the Berkshire Fwy (277 from Independence Blvd to 77) into a Boulevard-style road. I think this would have a far more profound effect on Uptown than capping 277 in the South, but it otherwise doesn't have any traction at this point.

I just recently saw something about extending the Brookshire Freeway on out to I-85, not reducing it's distance.