UP Forum Meetups

[kermit]

The DART system has relied heavily on running LRT on former industrial rail routes through the city. While this allows DART to build lots of track, relatively cheaply, it tends to not really go where people want to go (the B-Line to Rowlett being the prime example of this). In addition, they didn't pay any attention to zoning or pedestrian infrastructure, so getting from stations to actual destinations is also a chore (see Orange Line to Love Field). So Dallas gets to feel good that they built this very large, but not super useful, rail system but nobody really rides it much. Their low fare recovery rate (for LRT anyway) is a product of their low ridership per mile. When I was there riding a few years ago there was lots of fare enforcement and passes and individual fares were roughly the equivalent of CATS.

Most transit folks view the DART system as a show pony (it looks good to non-riders), but not a particularly well-designed rail network that serves riders poorly in most cases. One illustration of their corner-cutting design issues is they are currently working on a new downtown tunnel for their rail because the ran all of their lines on the same track though the middle of town. They ran out of capacity on this core portion of the network so now they gotta spend $$$ to fix the problem. There is a lesson here for the Silver Line.

[Charlotte lucked out that the ROW from the original Charlotte and South Carolina railway ran from uptown down to (close to) our suburban core. We were also smart enough to realize we needed new ROW for the outer portions of the BLE (DART would have chosen to parallel the NCRR all the way to 485 and skip viably serving UNCC). The western portion of the Silver Line runs the same risks as seen in Dallas as pedestrian access to the line from the South will be largely blocked by the NS tracks, and blocked from the North by the Wilkinson stroad.]

Edited March 27, 2022 by kermit

[KJHburg]

The reason I point to Dallas is like Charlotte it is sprawling and with multiple nodes of employment.  They connect their best shopping (Northpark)  best office districts (Uptown and downtown and, their hippest areas (Deep Ellum), their airports  (DFW) , their biggest hospitals (Parkland) and far flung suburbs all together.  I know nothing of their financials but do know I bought a day pass as I left a far flung north suburb and went all the downtown then I rode out to Las Colinas on the DFW line.   

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

The DART system has relied heavily on running LRT on former industrial rail routes through the city. While this allows DART to build lots of track, relatively cheaply, it tends to not really go where people want to go (the B-Line to Rowlett being the prime example of this). In addition, they didn't pay any attention to zoning or pedestrian infrastructure, so getting from stations to actual destinations is also a chore (see Orange Line to Love Field). So Dallas gets to feel good that they built this very large, but not super useful, rail system but nobody really rides it much. Their low fare recovery rate (for LRT anyway) is a product of their low ridership per mile. When I was there riding a few years ago there was lots of fare enforcement and passes and individual fares were roughly the equivalent of CATS.

Most transit folks view the DART system as a show pony (it looks good to non-riders), but not a particularly well-designed rail network that serves riders poorly in most cases. One illustration of their corner-cutting design issues is they are currently working on a new downtown tunnel for their rail because the ran all of their lines on the same track though the middle of town. They ran out of capacity on this core portion of the network so now they gotta spend $$$ to fix the problem. There is a lesson here for the Silver Line.

[Charlotte lucked out that the ROW from the original Charlotte and South Carolina railway ran from uptown down to (close to) our suburban core. We were also smart enough to realize we needed new ROW for the outer portions of the BLE (DART would have chosen to parallel the NCRR all the way to 485 and skip viably serving UNCC). The western portion of the Silver Line runs the same risks as seen in Dallas as pedestrian access to the line from the South will be largely blocked by the NS tracks, and blocked from the North by the Wilkinson stroad.]

when was the last time you were in Dallas and rode DART?  They are doing huge Transit oriented development along  Red line up to Plano.  Along the Green Line up in North Carrollton there are many new apartment complexes right at the stations and between them.  The Love field connection is via a shuttle but the DFW connection is at the airport after passing the massive Las Colinas mixed used development on the Orange line.   They are indeed doing a tunnel downtown.   Check out my photos from a DART train in Sept. of 2021 https://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/topic/16421-dallas-area-rapid-transit-dart/page/2/#comments

In fact check out many of photos in those Dallas threads from Sept. 2021 and you can see the train goes right through downtown Plano like a Matthews then right through CityLine south of Plano which is a high rise office and apartment cluster.  

And on top of all this they are building another line so the voters there must support it the Silver Line from Plano through north suburbs to DFW airport.    So yes it does go where people are going to arenas, hospitals, office districts and high density residential is clustering by it too.  It follows US 75 north northeast which is a hugely busy corridor to get to the north Dallas suburbs. 

 

 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

when was the last time you were in Dallas and rode DART? 

I'll concede that its been about 5 years since I have ridden DART, but, based on current farebox recovery / ridership numbers that experience still feels relevant. When you run 100 miles of LRT track that generally leads to pretty poor ridership per mile (which is what farebox recovery reflects) unless you only have remarkable routes -- Dallas does not.

Their new heavy rail runs to DFW from Fort Worth and (soon) Plano suffer from the same issues, there is very little midpoint traffic on either of those two routes. Same issue exists with TRE. But the heavy rail routes are a slightly different animal than LRT.

Edited March 27, 2022 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

Any good information to share from the meet-up? How was Hop Fly?

[KJHburg]

19 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Any good information to share from the meet-up? How was Hop Fly?

Hopfly was great and 2nd floor was a good bit quieter than other breweries.  We talked about the Moxy and it is not dead as you can see from the renderings posted today.  We all saw them on Saturday.   Legacy 4 tower getting ready to start and a sketch was given.  US Bank more than likely to their new tower at Riverside Queens Collective.  Hotels coming back and more announcements in the future about brands like at the Vantage southend and the 300 room hotel on Hawkins St.  No news on the Publix on N Tryon uptown.  I told people about how life sciences companies are ringing the phone off the hook at the Cabarrus EDC after Eli Lilly announced.  

[KJHburg]

we might wait and have our April meeting in early May and have a walking tour to boot of a booming intown area.  

With Easter and my own schedule we could possibly have a meet up this Saturday or just wait until early May. 

Let me know what you think.  

[DMann]

May, early 7th or before, works best for me.

[KJHburg]

Meet UP UPdate the next UP meetUP will be May 7 at 1 pm at the Starlight at 422 E 22nd St in the Villa Heights Mill District area.  

We will have a walking tour led by @TheRealClayton of this ever changing area with lots of development.  Come one and come all and take a stroll.  

May 7 at 1 pm at the Contact - Starlight on 22nd    Take the light rail to Parkwood or walk or bike or even drive as there is some parking.   Take a LSC Greenway.  

we can discuss the ongoing saga with the Panthers, new towers, and the ever changing Mill District. 

[KJHburg]

On 4/19/2022 at 7:34 PM, KJHburg said:

Meet UP UPdate the next UP meetUP will be May 7 at 1 pm at the Starlight at 422 E 22nd St in the Villa Heights Mill District area.  

We will have a walking tour led by @TheRealClayton of this ever changing area with lots of development.  Come one and come all and take a stroll.  

May 7 at 1 pm at the Contact - Starlight on 22nd    Take the light rail to Parkwood or walk or bike or even drive as there is some parking.   Take a LSC Greenway.  

we can discuss the ongoing saga with the Panthers, new towers, and the ever changing Mill District. 

Yes this Saturday at the Starlight at 1 pm meet there then we will do a walking tour of the area which is rapidly changing.  There is a $1 cover charge to the Starlight for a membership due to NC alcohol laws.  Don't worry I will have some $1 bills to reimburse you.   Discussions:   Duke Energy property news?  Legacy tower?  Riverside coming soon?   Rumors of other towers and maybe the sketch pad will come again with renderings of buildings where they have not been released yet.  

[CLT Development]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Yes this Saturday at the Starlight at 1 pm meet there then we will do a walking tour of the area which is rapidly changing.  There is a $1 cover charge to the Starlight for a membership due to NC alcohol laws.  Don't worry I will have some $1 bills to reimburse you.   Discussions:   Duke Energy property news?  Legacy tower?  Riverside coming soon?   Rumors of other towers and maybe the sketch pad will come again with renderings of buildings where they have not been released yet.  

Hopefully we will have a chance to tour the new Lintmen's building as well. Working on confirming! I hope to have more of these "hard hat tours" for UPers going forward.

On a related note, If I organized hardhat tours during the week would anyone attend?

Edited May 3, 2022 by CLT Development

[DMann]

Count me in!

[KJHburg]

here is where the tour starts tomorrow at the UP meetup at 1 pm and here are some street scenes from 22nd St.   Short street with lot of construction. 

see you at the Starlight at 1 pm tomorrow.  

You can RSVP at the link below:

http://evite.me/aXYbU2MmzY

 

[DMann]

Alas, I have been tasked to work with a client tomorrow and will not be there!!!!  Please send me the good stuff!

[KJHburg]

Meetup and walking tour today of the Mill District aka Villa Heights NoDa area meeting at 1 pm at Starlight on 22nd St see photos above.

next tour for June will be Uptown Charlotte meeting at old live oak tree at Ally Bank Center. 

Future tours will be in these areas:  Camp North End, downtown Concord, LoSo, Southend central, Gold District,  FreeMoreWest Freight district,  Plaza Midwood, downtown Belmont town thereof,  downtown Gastonia, downtown Pineville and my favorite greenway..  

Walk and talk then socialize. 

[Norm2]

Some photos from out meetup today

 

 

[KJHburg]

Great photos @norm21499and that 2nd one to the last is at Camden NoDa which we mostly agreed is one of the best apartment complexes going up right now.  Really nice looking with all the brick.