>> Providence Downtown Area

[Garris]

Y'all should check out that Times Square in Boston section.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/20...re_wins_hub_ok/

could we see something along those lines in our theatre DisTrict?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You know, the possible LaSalle Sq office building would be the perfect place for something "Times Square" showy too... Right near the two Trinity Rep theaters and AS220. I think this city's collective urban thinking is just too conservative to let it all hang out, however, even if just for one block... That kind of thinking comes with confidence, and confidence comes with success, and we just haven't had success in our nacient new urbanism yet. It's too early.

Also, given all the space visible to travellers on 95, etc, I'm still shocked the city doesn't have some kind of promotional signage on the Dunk, etc showing off all the entertainment and cultural riches if they were to only get off the highway.

- Garris

[AriPVD]

I happen to think Emmett Square would make an ideal "Times Square." The ProJo should nix its executive garage and put up a state of the art "media center" with a running ticker, big screen news and advertisements. Am I dreaming?

[CtownMikey]

nono.. you aren't dreaming.. Projo and the rest of the world is just sleeping

[Cotuit]

One of Duany's proposed locations for a Downcity movie theatre was the ProJo lot on Matthewson Street. He proposed a highly animated information sign which would list things like PPAC and Trinity shows, WaterFire dates and times, movie times, area events such as Sound Session or FirstWorks... From that location it would be visible and readible from within the Convention Center.

I'm positive we will see some sort of animated sign outside the renovated Dunk, the current sign obviously has to go.

[gregw]

I definitely agree. Providence should be bolder and even a little brassiness can be a good thing. We should follow the lead of Brooklyn. When you enter the borough from Queens a big sign reads: "Brooklyn, NY. Believe the Hype!" Love that.

I think the Duany plan for a signature bridge over 95 at Braodway is a great idea. Show people that Providence is a happening place. And yes let's go neon in parts of Downtown. Look at what an inviting and lively place PPAC is with its flashing marquee.

You know, the possible LaSalle Sq office building would be the perfect place for something "Times Square" showy too...  Right near the two Trinity Rep theaters and AS220.  I think this city's collective urban thinking is just too conservative to let it all hang out, however, even if just for one block...  That kind of thinking comes with confidence, and confidence comes with success, and we just haven't had success in our nacient new urbanism yet.  It's too early.

Also, given all the space visible to travellers on 95, etc, I'm still shocked the city doesn't have some kind of promotional signage on the Dunk, etc showing off all the entertainment and cultural riches if they were to only get off the highway.

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I I

[Cotuit]

I happen to think Emmett Square would make an ideal "Times Square."  The ProJo should nix its executive garage and put up a state of the art "media center" with a running ticker, big screen news and advertisements.  Am I dreaming?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm going to have a rare disagrement with Ari here, don't be alarmed.

I think Emmet Square should be formal. With the historic Biltmore (even with it's own neon sign), and the high class Westin Residence, and the formalness of the Skating Center and Burnside Park and old Union Station, I see Emmet Square as being a formal area. It would be nice to see ProJo tear down their lowrise section, and I could see it replaced with an interesting, tall, curved structure with neon and/or LED signage, but I like Emmet being formal.

I could see LaSalle Square being the Providence version of Times Square however. You have the sort of rowdy atmosphere of the sports fans coming and going at the Dunk, the Dunk should and will have it's own signage (which ideally would face LaSalle). You also have the hipster scene down Empire at AS220, and the arts at Trinity. And it should act as a gateway from the west and the highway. I'd like to see the Trinity Brewhouse torn (but let's not get rid of Trinity Brewhouse, they can come back, or move), and replace that building with something the same height as the Trinity theatre (though I do like those threatre sculptures on the building). The new building could feature a large Neon/LED sign. A financial company in one of the Public Safety complex towers would pave the way for a news/stock ticker. And the Majestic (Civic Center/Dunk) Garage should have a liner building added on the Aborn side, and the Fountain Street facade could be screened with more signage.

[AriPVD]

Garris, does this mean it's over?!? No, but I'd be willing to compromise and agree with you. I think Emmitt is certainly more formal. LaSalle it is!

I was in Boston this past weekend walking through the Public Garden and I really want to know why we can't afford any freakin landscaping in Burnside Park. This isn't expensive, nor is it brain surgery. Rittenhouse in Philly is another example of a tiny, beautifully landscaped park. Burnside is strewn with garbage, overgrown with weeds and the only thing resembling nature is the browned out excuse for grass. Plant things! (and move the buses while you're at it).

[Garris]

Garris, does this mean it's over?!?

Whoa, huh? It's Cotuit being catty with you, not me!

I was in Boston this past weekend walking through the Public Garden and I really want to know why we can't afford any freakin landscaping in Burnside Park...  Burnside is strewn with garbage, overgrown with weeds and the only thing resembling nature is the browned out excuse for grass.  Plant things! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Public works maintenance really seems to be a Providence problem, from the sidewalks, to mowing the grass along the river, to the signage, etc... I really don't know why. It's very sad, and a very obvious problem. I think it's one of the city's biggest problems, actually.

Does anyone know why this is? Can it be that expensive that we can't do what other municipalities can?

- Garris

[AriPVD]

Oops. Sorry. Meant Cotuit. My b.

[Frankie811]

http://www.pbn.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/116401

[Cotuit]

The college has yet to hire a contractor to renovate the library, which is expected to open by fall of 2006.

Uhm, yes they have, it's Shawmut. They have big ass Shawmut signs all over the Fulton Street side of the building.

[Frankie811]

http://rhodeisland.cox.net/cci/newslocal/l...rticleId=898332

http://www.pbn.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/116459

[virgo20]

I took a walk through Downtown today down Westminster, Weybosset, Washington ,and the various side streets.( Richmond, Matthewson, etc.) The many building conversions to apartments and condos was staggering.I remember Downtown from the early 90's when I went to high school at nearby Classical. We used to go down there after school and buy clothes and eat @ Luke's Chinese Restaurant behind City Hall. At that time, Providence had Woolworth's, Gladdings, Chess King, Thom McCann, Chery & Webb, Geller's (which is still there), and at least a dozen clothing stores that were owned by mostly Asians. Mc'Donalds was there and Burger King was in the spot where Dress Barn is now. Sacketts Hallmark Gifts was on Union Street.Payless Shoes was on Weybosset. The Sportsmans Inn on Fountain even hosted a Kentucky Fried Chicken for awhile.Most people say thst Providence's retail and downtown life died in the 70's when the Warwick malls were built. For me and countless other people from the city, Downtown never died! Most of our families couldn't afford cars and if we could, the Warwick Mall was a day trip! Downtown provided us with food, entertainment, and a destination for us to pass the time.The strrets were busy at street level and the upper floors were vacant. I have many fond memories from my youth. As I looked at all the progress today, I couldn't help think about the reverse economic trend. The upper floors of these buildings were being polished and renovated. The storefronts were empty. The new businesses that have opened ( Design Within Reach, Tazza) cater to the Providence that everyone thinks they want.(an upscale gentrified neighborhood in the center of the city)I'm not saying that they are not great places, but the one thing that sets Prov. aside from all other N.E . cities is the fact that we have a good eclectic mix of people here. These businesses and ongoing upscale development drive out businesses that cater to the rest of the population.Rents go up and places like these are not willing to pay these expensive prices when they can have a storefront in Cranston for half the money.There needs to be a balance here and I would like to see development in Downtown reflect the community at large. Bring back the small places.Welcome the fast food plces.(Not everyone wants or can afford L'Epicureo for lunch)Bring the big upscale projects too, but let there be a balance. I don't know how many of you have been here for a long time, but in the mid 90's, they tried to make downtown upscale. They opened a full scale gym on Washington Street and the "Groceria" on Weybosset Street. The "Groceria" was a full size upscale market that failed miserably... They couldn't attract the high end customers Downtown. Now that we are finally getting residents Downtown, let's bring businesses back that cater to the community as well.Providence is too small a city to cater to one demographic ...Bring people from all our neighborhoods and outlying towns back into the city! I will never forget my Downtown trips as a kid and I hope one day I will be able to go back and feel like I have left satisfied..

[Garris]

First, Virgo20, outstanding and provocative post. Thanks for sharing your experiences...

For me and countless other people from the city, Downtown never died!

Perhaps. When I lived in Providence for about 6 weeks in '99, downtown sure seemed pretty dead to me! Far more so than now (the mall was still under construction, Waterplace was pretty but felt downright dangerous, Kennedy Plaza or whatever it was then inspired fear...).

The new businesses that have opened ( Design Within Reach, Tazza) cater to the Providence that everyone thinks they want.(an upscale gentrified neighborhood in the center of the city)I'm not saying that they are not great places, but the one thing that sets Prov. aside from all other N.E . cities is the fact that we have a good eclectic mix of people here...

There needs to be a balance here and I would like to see development in Downtown reflect the community at large. Bring back the small places.Welcome the fast food plces.(Not everyone wants or can afford L'Epicureo for lunch)

I fully understand your point... It's the social justice vs urban theme park issue we debate again (and again, and again) here at UP.

I maintain that the full fledged "urban neighborhood," with its little shops, clothing stores, repair places, burger joints, drug stores, book stores, movie houses, etc, all self contained and walkable, is essentially extinct. It's true in my hometown of Carmel, NY and the nearby river town of Cold Spring, NY. It's true in downtown New Haven, CT. It's true in Minneapolis and St. Paul. It's true here in Wayland Square and on Wickenden. Hope Village still has some vestiges of it, but it'll happen there too.

The American economy, society, and culture just currently isn't structured around that kind of centralized living anymore. Hard core retail is for the Route 2's, the Rt 6 Seekonks, and the Providence Places of the world. Movies are for huge 38 screen multiplexes. Bookstores belong to Amazon and B&N. No one gets anything repaired anymore. KFC, McDonalds, etc belong to the American highway. I hate it, it's sad, and the rest of the world looks on in horror, but that is the only way the vast majority of Americans have indicated they want to live their lives now or in the forseeable future. Remember, all of those places you reminisce about downtown closed. There weren't enough of you and me to keep them open. No one forced them out of business. The owner of Tazza didn't club the kneecaps of the manager of Burger King and chase them out of town. And think this is bad here? Visit areas of the Midwest or places like Scottsdale, AZ.

The only way Providence's downtown (or any mixed development) will survive is taking any of the following approaches:

A- The upscale "urban theme park" that is able to draw people from elsewhere (i.e. the burbs) with unique and specialized eating, play, shopping and education...

B- Offering services, dining, and recreation targeting its largely affluent, single, childless, or retired population with laser like accuracy...

C- Literally turning itself into an inside out mall, like what is being done with the development in Cranston on the site of the old Boy's School or in countless of downtowns in US cites (ex, in Minneapolis, the Nicolette Ave pedestrian shopping arcade is essentially a mall outdoors).

Providence appears to be taking the combination of A and B, and I think it'll work. A is already working... Providence is a destination for shopping, events, shows, and dining... Check out the PP mall area, Federal Hill, College Hill, Wayland Sq, etc on a Friday or Saturday night (or most nights, for that matter). Packed. I think B is just ramping up right now, and hopefully will be in full swing in the underloved "W" streets soon.

The more earthy, neighborhoody stuff you want I don't think has a place downtown anymore. Where I'd like to see that retail is around places like Smith St, Chalkstone Ave, Western Westminster, Broad St, etc... Those places need them more (and are better suited for them) than downtown...

- Garris

[Recchia]

Virgo I remember those days as well. I was in middle school though, and I didn't live in Providence but I used to hop on the #3 bus and go into Providence some days after school or on weekends and think I was cool because I was able to hang out in the city.

Boy has Providence changed since those days. Going with what Garris said, I hope that Smith Street and even Douglas Ave can become what downtown used to be back then. They have so much potential given their dense surrounding neighborhoods and proximity to downtown.

[virgo20]

First, Virgo20, outstanding and provocative post.  Thanks for sharing your experiences...

Perhaps.  When I lived in Providence for about 6 weeks in '99, downtown sure seemed pretty dead to me!  Far more so than now (the mall was still under construction, Waterplace was pretty but felt downright dangerous, Kennedy Plaza or whatever it was then inspired fear...).

I fully understand your point...  It's the social justice vs urban theme park issue we debate again (and again, and again) here at UP. 

I maintain that the full fledged "urban neighborhood," with its little shops, clothing stores, repair places, burger joints, drug stores, book stores, movie houses, etc, all self contained and walkable, is essentially extinct.  It's true in my hometown of Carmel, NY and the nearby river town of Cold Spring, NY.  It's true in downtown New Haven, CT.  It's true in Minneapolis and St. Paul.  It's true here in Wayland Square and on Wickenden.  Hope Village still has some vestiges of it, but it'll happen there too.

The American economy, society, and culture just currently isn't structured around that kind of centralized living anymore.  Hard core retail is for the Route 2's, the Rt 6 Seekonks, and the Providence Places of the world.  Movies are for huge 38 screen multiplexes.  Bookstores belong to Amazon and B&N.  No one gets anything repaired anymore.  KFC, McDonalds, etc belong to the American highway.  I hate it, it's sad, and the rest of the world looks on in horror, but that is the only way the vast majority of Americans have indicated they want to live their lives now or in the forseeable future.  Remember, all of those places you reminisce about downtown closed.  There weren't enough of you and me to keep them open.  No one forced them out of business.  The owner of Tazza didn't club the kneecaps of the manager of Burger King and chase them out of town.  And think this is bad here?  Visit areas of the Midwest or places like Scottsdale, AZ.

The only way Providence's downtown (or any mixed development) will survive is taking any of the following approaches:

A- The upscale "urban theme park" that is able to draw people from elsewhere (i.e. the burbs) with unique and specialized eating, play, shopping and education...

B- Offering services, dining, and recreation targeting its largely affluent, single, childless, or retired population with laser like accuracy...

C- Literally turning itself into an inside out mall, like what is being done with the development in Cranston on the site of the old Boy's School or in countless of downtowns in US cites (ex, in Minneapolis, the Nicolette Ave pedestrian shopping arcade is essentially a mall outdoors).

Providence appears to be taking the combination of A and B, and I think it'll work.  A is already working...  Providence is a destination for shopping, events, shows, and dining...  Check out the PP mall area, Federal Hill, College Hill, Wayland Sq, etc on a Friday or Saturday night (or most nights, for that matter).  Packed.  I think B is just ramping up right now, and hopefully will be in full swing in the underloved "W" streets soon.

The more earthy, neighborhoody stuff you want I don't think has a place downtown anymore.  Where I'd like to see that retail is around places like Smith St, Chalkstone Ave, Western Westminster, Broad St, etc...  Those places need them more (and are better suited for them) than downtown...

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Downtown was never bustling or bursting at the seams when I was growing up. I'm not saying it was better then. I'm saying it was more of a destination,albeit, a morning and afternoon destination. It's quite obvious to anyone that we've made a lot of progress in that respect. I certainly agree with you when you talked about the direction that we're aiming for( A and B)...and I certainly agree with A that many of our areas are experiencing economic growth...However, this blog is about "Downcity". Even though the PP Mall is technically loated in "Downcity", it is not the economic engine that was forecated to drive people to the Central Business District. It is on the outskirts and although it has done wonders and been successful, it hasn't done much for the rest of Downtown.Most of the new large-scale development is centered around the mall and Capital Center.(the sprawled-out Downcity) I disagree with the fact that you say we need to make this an upscale neighborhood. Downtown will not succeed as residential alone. The residential is a catalyst to bring retail and other services back to this area.Downcity also has many clubs,bars, and late-night hangouts.The people that move there should not expect to bring the East Side to Washington Street much like David Brussat would like to see. It should be a funky destination where people can hang out and have a bagel and people watch if they want to.Imagine if we loaded all those condo's, lofts, and 110 W with NIMBY radicals from Fox Point and Summit. I disagree. We need the clubs, dive bars, high-end boutiques, Downtown Target, and multi-millionaires living and coexisting together. We need a big fat Chimichurri truck that sells Dominican meat pies @ 3AM.(I'm sick of Haven Bros.)

Weneed to make the "Core" a vibrant funky destination , not Newbury St. We need to fill the place with artists, musicians, and ordinary people,not Boston commuters. That's what makes us different.That's what makes it appealing! We need people to live there that appreciate a vibrant CITY that sometimes may be loud, that sometimes may be dirty, that sometimes wil rattle with the souds of CITY LIFE!! We don't need to turn it into Wayland Square..We already have one...Frustrated but Hopeful

[CtownMikey]

aren't we sort of going for a microsized- NYC?

millionaires living in the same area as lower income artists?

[Garris]

Even though the PP Mall is technically loated in "Downcity", it is not the economic engine that was forecated to drive people to the Central Business District. It is on the outskirts and although it has done wonders and been successful, it hasn't done much for the rest of Downtown.

I completely disagree. Without the PP Mall, I think there is no Providence renaissance. Waterplace alone wouldn't have done it. I think without the mall, there'd be no 110, Waterplace condos, Westin condos, Graces and L'Epicureo relocation, etc. etc...

And you may not be able to quantify it in dollars and cents, but the PP Mall has done two enormous things for all of downtown Providence

1) Given it the large, cheap centralized parking the city needs. People use that mall parking for everything from concerts at the VMA to dinner at Downcity Diner...

2) Given the vast majority of people in this region a "face" of Providence that is safe, clean, optimistic, and relevant to them. How many downtowns in the US would kill for the volume of people the mall brings to our downtown?

I propose that the vast majority of people in this region are not nearly as reticent to come to a concert at PPAC, a dinner at Cappricio, a Waterfire, a drink at Tazza, etc because they don't fear Providence because they "know" the city because of their mall experience. I think this is unquantifiable and allows the renaissance to continue...

I disagree with the fact that you say we need to make this an upscale neighborhood.

[Baines]

I completely believe the opposite.  I don't think Downcity will ever fully flourish ever again unless it is substantially residential.  The residential will be needed to bring in the retail, the residential will be needed to bring more jobs and offices to the area, and the residential will be needed to bring more healthcare to the area.  More residential downtown will only fuel the fire and make it easier for the campuses to expand downtown.  I've thrown this challenge out before...  Name one American downtown in a small to medium sized city that has returned to glory without it being on the back of a growth in residential development in its core?  Name one that's done it by retail or offices alone...

The retail that develops should target its residents, whoever they end up being (which is a work in progress, still).  If it ends up being upscale, so be it...

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow...I can only add from another perspective.

First, in Tampa (270,00), they have been struggling for 10 years to bring life to downtown and have failed. They are now looking at Providence as a model to do three things: a "riverwalk", residential condos, and a mall on the outskirts of downcity. Well, the riverwalk is being built, but there are no people, the condos are being built (including one by Trump) , and the the mall is finished (with a Capital Grill) but is too far removed. So, they are banking on the large condo boom to do it.

As I have seen in other cities in the 150,000-300,000 class, residential life brings retail development..as long as government encourages it. I am certain that in 2 years the Westminster area will be a wide collection of retail choices based on the demographics of the area.

[Cotuit]

Now this one I agree with.

[CtownMikey]

I just had a talk with a few clubowners about closing times...

Apparently due in part to all of the new residential activity in downcity, along with traffic and violence all bursting out at 2am.. closing times for clubs/bars on weekends is soon to be 1am.. no more 2am.

this new bill has already passed and i guess all that has to be done now is have a due date for club owners to pick up their new lisence. (could be within the month)

In addition to the 1 am closing time.. 18+ will be no more in rhode island.. just 21+.

The people I talked to said the city/state basically hates the complex and diesel (Providence's 2 biggest clubs) and actually the smoking ban was meant in part to hurt business and drive people out of the city.. and eventually close the clubs down.

WHICH is what this new law will eventually do.

They also said that Providence is one of the only east coast cities to close at 1am now..(only 1 other is in that category... while the rest close much later)--> which is terrible news for our convention center. How can the CC compete with other convention centers when our nightlife is lagging?

It just seems like the state and city are fighting against themselves in this renaissance for Providence. They want to kill the nightlife and make the new residents happy and cut down violence and traffic at club closing time.. but the bill that they passed will only make traffic and violence/noise happen an hour earlier. IT WONT STOP IT.

I just dont get this issue.. and I dont get why the people in charge of this are soo stubborn.

you basically now have to be a 21+ year old non-smoker, who doesnt like staying out too late TO ENJOY THE PROV. NIGHTLIFE

I doubt this is a rumor.. since i talked to the actual owners who are going to be picking up their new liscense soon. My guess is that it will take effect sometime early autumn.

SO WHATS UP WITH THIS??

The one good thing I heard in this conversation was that this bill will soon dramatically hurt the nightlife.. that the city/state will realize this and try out a 3am closing time... but that may not be for a few years.

[CtownMikey]

hey cotuit.. sry I didnt see your post of that article.

[ruchele]

I fully understand your point...  It's the social justice vs urban theme park issue we debate again (and again, and again) here at UP. 

- Garris

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To me, this isn't really about social justice, per se. More than anything, I think a downtown is just that much more vibrant and unique, and therefore, more attractive and financially successful, when lots of different people go there for lots of different reasons. Right now, downtown isn't that attractive to me because there isn't much going on. If it becomes an upper-income playground where the clothes, restaurants, services, housing etc. aren't what I want or can afford, and the "people watching" is always the same, it STILL won't be attractive to me or to others with my income and interests. I have money to spend, as do people poorer than me, younger than 30, older than 50, etc. It would be foolish for the development of Downcity to rule out the income and vibrancy a broader sample of people would bring.

[virgo20]

I just had a talk with a few clubowners about closing times...

Apparently due in part to all of the new residential activity in downcity, along with traffic and violence all bursting out at 2am.. closing times for clubs/bars on weekends is soon to be 1am.. no more 2am.

this new bill has already passed and i guess all that has to be done now is have a due date for club owners to pick up their new lisence. (could be within the month)

In addition to the 1 am closing time..  18+ will be no more in rhode island.. just 21+.

The people I talked to said the city/state basically hates the complex and diesel (Providence's 2 biggest clubs) and actually the smoking ban was meant in part to hurt business and drive people out of the city.. and eventually close the clubs down.

WHICH is what this new law will eventually do.

They also said that Providence is one of the only east coast cities to close at 1am now..(only 1 other is in that category... while the rest close much later)--> which is terrible news for our convention center. How can the CC compete with other convention centers when our nightlife is lagging?

It just seems like the state and city are fighting against themselves in this renaissance for Providence. They want to kill the nightlife and make the new residents happy and cut down violence and traffic at club closing time.. but the bill that they passed will only make traffic and violence/noise happen an hour earlier. IT WONT STOP IT.

I just dont get this issue.. and I dont get why the people in charge of this are soo stubborn.

you basically now have to be a 21+ year old non-smoker, who doesnt like staying out too late  TO ENJOY THE PROV. NIGHTLIFE

I doubt this is a rumor.. since i talked to the actual owners who are going to be picking up their new liscense soon. My guess is that it will take effect sometime early autumn.

SO WHATS UP WITH THIS??

The one good thing I heard in this conversation was that this bill will soon dramatically hurt the nightlife.. that the city/state will realize this and try out a 3am closing time... but that may  not be for a few years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is the point that I am trying to make here.The clientele that many of these projects are trying to lure are people from affluent areas that will bring their ideals to Downcity.Many people in this forum have expressed interest in moving Downcity , but simply will not be able to afford it.I'm not saying to not build 110 or the like, but rather create some sort of balance. There is no balance now. As far as the economic feasibility for a developer, there are so many credits and tax breaks to balance out development with affordable housing. That doesn't mean you will have welfare recipients living on Westminster. It means that certain people that enjoy that atmosphere of city living will be able to afford them.( myself included) People that populate these residences should understand that this is a city and city sounds emanate at night...If you populate these units with empty-nester couples who have woke up to robins chirping on the front lawn for 35 years, you are creating a nightmare.We mustn't shortchange ourselves.This area shoud not try to emulate a Wayland Square. This area should be a place where the whole city can come together as a destination and the people that live there enjoy the activity that surrounds them! Kudos to Brussat!

[virgo20]

To me, this isn't really about social justice, per se.  More than anything, I think a downtown is just that much more vibrant and unique, and therefore, more attractive and financially successful, when lots of different people go there for lots of different reasons.  Right now, downtown isn't that attractive to me because there isn't much going on.  If it becomes an upper-income playground where the clothes, restaurants, services, housing etc. aren't what I want or can afford, and the "people watching" is always the same, it STILL won't be attractive to me or to others with my income and interests.  I have money to spend, as do people poorer than me, younger than 30, older than 50, etc.  It would be foolish for the development of Downcity to rule out the income and vibrancy a broader sample of people would bring.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank-you!!!!! to the most logical person I've heard yet on this topic.....Salud!!!!