Brownstones at Thornton Park

[GTR]

22 minutes ago, dcluley98 said:

Price is what somebody is willing to pay. I agree that they will likely sell.  Probably to somebody that has enough cash they don't need to bargain shop for a place to live. RE is pretty bubblicious right now, but that doesn't mean somebody won't be willing to pay at that high value.

Considering they have only been able to sell a little more than half of these in nearly a two year span (which amounts to just a litte over a dozen) it doesn't appear they are selling well...

[steve_o]

Certainly an opinion, though once again almost none of this is correct.  ^^

8 remaining units out of a total of 28.  None of which are completed or closed yet.  

Having worked in this industry for an awful long time, I give credit to those that have the ability to put their non-refundable money down bearing only the foresight into what they believe downtown Orlando and the Brownstones will become based solely on a few sketches.  

Notice, no other developers have begun a sellable project since the mid 2000s.  Hoping this is a catalyst for more to come!

[popsiclebrandon]

They turned out really nice. Projects like this are great, especially to compared to those ugly ass townhomes that Milk District guy is putting everywhere.

But there is something about those tubs that is off putting to me. I don't like them sort of floating in the middle of the bathroom but I am sure I am in the minority on that.

[GTR]

2 hours ago, steve_o said:

Certainly an opinion, though once again almost none of this is correct.  ^^

8 remaining units out of a total of 28.  None of which are completed or closed yet.  

Having worked in this industry for an awful long time, I give credit to those that have the ability to put their non-refundable money down bearing only the foresight into what they believe downtown Orlando and the Brownstones will become based solely on a few sketches.  

Notice, no other developers have begun a sellable project since the mid 2000s.  Hoping this is a catalyst for more to come!

So over a quarter still not sold after nearly 2 years. You can heap praise on 20 people doing what thousands did back a decade ago or someone developing one of the cheapest forms of a sellable project possible, but it doesn't change the facts this sellable project hasn't sold well. Blaming it on pricing seems to be the best scapegoat out there, unsure of the uneasiness to do so.

[AndyPok1]

Can I opine to be middle of the road here?  I think selling 70% of the units before it is even close to being done is good.  I also think that they're overpriced and the final ones could easily be sold if they dropped it a bit, but with the market is what it is right now, that's what it will bear.

[leondecollao]

Sorry but the disagreement on price is pretty silly, imo.  While I too wish there were cheaper options this nice close to the core, we should all hope this project does well and that the developers make bank.  There are plenty of people willing to spend this kind of money on a brownstone, they just go to Winter Park. Seriously, if one nice project can't sell at top dollar in downtown Orlando, then we should go ahead and go drink our sorrows away at a local bar cause we'll wait another 15 years until a developer takes the plunge again. 

[John Hargrove]

6 hours ago, leondecollao said:

Sorry but the disagreement on price is pretty silly, imo.  While I too wish there were cheaper options this nice close to the core, we should all hope this project does well and that the developers make bank.  There are plenty of people willing to spend this kind of money on a brownstone, they just go to Winter Park. Seriously, if one nice project can't sell at top dollar in downtown Orlando, then we should go ahead and go drink our sorrows away at a local bar cause we'll wait another 15 years until a developer takes the plunge again. 

My feelings exactly. I think Orlando inhabitants are just used to cheap real estate. People spend well above $1M for smaller, older, less centrally-located houses all over cities in this country.

There are two conversations here -- one is about rents and real estate cost in general, and whether that is reasonable or sustainable. The second conversation is (given the real estate climate) whether Orlando warrants these prices compared to prices within Orlando or other cities.

On the former conversation, I do believe that the cost of housing is something that will come to a head inside of the next decade and society as a whole will need action on it.

On the second conversation -- whether these prices are warranted with factors considered -- I think they are.

[GTR]

16 hours ago, AndyPok1 said:

Can I opine to be middle of the road here?  I think selling 70% of the units before it is even close to being done is good.  I also think that they're overpriced and the final ones could easily be sold if they dropped it a bit, but with the market is what it is right now, that's what it will bear.

Except that if this was a big project you couldn't even begin construction without 80% pre-sold, which was routinely done a decade ago with projects involving 10/15 times as many units. There really is no good way to spin only selling 20 out of 28 units by the time construction is complete.

[GTR]

14 hours ago, leondecollao said:

Sorry but the disagreement on price is pretty silly, imo.  While I too wish there were cheaper options this nice close to the core, we should all hope this project does well and that the developers make bank.  There are plenty of people willing to spend this kind of money on a brownstone, they just go to Winter Park. Seriously, if one nice project can't sell at top dollar in downtown Orlando, then we should go ahead and go drink our sorrows away at a local bar cause we'll wait another 15 years until a developer takes the plunge again. 

You can hope all you want, but at some point you need to face reality.  This project has many flaws, so just because it is not selling well doesn't mean that people are not willing to spend this money downtown. It just means they expect more before they do.  

[JFW657]

I'm no real estate expert and don't claim to be, but I would think having nearly 3/4 of the units sold on opening day is not bad in anyone's book.

A year from now, they'll probably all be sold.

Even the ones overlooking those "...horrid, tacky little duplexes". 

 

[jrs2]

Those brownstones are such a great asset to downtown in so many ways, infill being one of them.

[jack]

70% sold before opening is awesome. Some people will only buy after they can see, touch and feel it. 

[John Hargrove]

11 minutes ago, jack said:

70% sold before opening is awesome. Some people will only buy after they can see, touch and feel it. 

That has to be a very common feeling. I certainly feel that way. Drop a $50-100k down payment on hopes and dreams? Forget that. 

 

[GTR]

Lots of people seem clueless about these type of projects.  Condominium projects are generally now 80% pre-sold before construction begins, i.e., 80% of the units have deposits put on them before a single piece of dirt is moved. So places like the Vue, Sanctuary, etc. had collected hundreds of deposits before they even began construction.  In that light, pretty hard to get excited about obtaining deposits on 20 out of 28 (71%) units before construction is completed in this case, even accounting for the market differences between now and a decade ago. Saying they will eventually sell ignores realities of carrying costs, etc. of them sitting empty after completion.  

[John Hargrove]

1 hour ago, GTR said:

Lots of people seem clueless about these type of projects.  Condominium projects are generally now 80% pre-sold before construction begins, i.e., 80% of the units have deposits put on them before a single piece of dirt is moved. So places like the Vue, Sanctuary, etc. had collected hundreds of deposits before they even began construction.  In that light, pretty hard to get excited about obtaining deposits on 20 out of 28 (71%) units before construction is completed in this case, even accounting for the market differences between now and a decade ago. Saying they will eventually sell ignores realities of carrying costs, etc. of them sitting empty after completion.  

I don't think people are "clueless". I think you're experience something you seem to be foreign to: optimism. Most of your posts are overwhelmingly negative and critical, so you will find yourself disagreeing with people very frequently. Certainly all voices are welcome, especially knowledgeable ones, but there is a fine line between constructive critique and crapping all over projects and people's opinions.

 

[steve_o]

53 minutes ago, castorvx said:

2 hours ago, GTR said:

Lots of people seem clueless about these type of projects.  Condominium projects are generally now 80% pre-sold before construction begins, i.e., 80% of the units have deposits put on them before a single piece of dirt is moved. So places like the Vue, Sanctuary, etc. had collected hundreds of deposits before they even began construction.  In that light, pretty hard to get excited about obtaining deposits on 20 out of 28 (71%) units before construction is completed in this case, even accounting for the market differences between now and a decade ago. Saying they will eventually sell ignores realities of carrying costs, etc. of them sitting empty after completion.  

You mean like the VUE that still has nearly 46 units available 9 years after completion?  Or the introduced in 2005 Star Tower where the remaining 48 units (out of a total of 100 - read 48%) came back to the market in 2012 and is now in 2016 one penthouse away from selling out?  I believe you are mistaking Orlando for one of the various cities featured on Million Dollar Listing.  

Sounds like the Brownstone project is just not for you.  And thats ok.  

 

[GTR]

4 hours ago, castorvx said:

I don't think people are "clueless". I think you're experience something you seem to be foreign to: optimism. Most of your posts are overwhelmingly negative and critical, so you will find yourself disagreeing with people very frequently. Certainly all voices are welcome, especially knowledgeable ones, but there is a fine line between constructive critique and crapping all over projects and people's opinions.

 

I am quite familiar with optimism, but I am foreign to ignorant optimism - people that ignore cold hard facts to paint a happy picture, which there seems to be a ton in here. I'd be more concerned about people with monetary interests in projects jumping in and trying to manipulate conversations if I were you.

[GTR]

2 hours ago, steve_o said:

 

You confuse deposits with sales. They each had 70-80% pre-sales, just many people walked away from their deposits during the great recession.  However, even during the great recession each project was able to complete more sales than the less than 1 unit per month the Brownstones has averaged...

And it could have been a project for me as I was quite interested in them when they were first announced. I wanted to move out of a highrise but stay downtown, so these were a perfect fit on paper.  Went to the launch party and everything.  I just thought the price (which was in my range nonetheless) was way to much for what they were offering in that location.  And they weren't enough of an emotional project (like Samsara) to justify overpaying that much.  

[prahaboheme]

Do let us know when you have a cold, hard fact to "manipulate" the discussion with. 

[dcluley98]

Ya'll take this stuff way to seriously.  They are high priced, yes.  They look pretty nice so far, and there is not much comparable available that close to downtown.  I am pretty sure somebody will fork some cash for them when everything is finished.  If they have to drop the price a bit to get out early, I am sure they will still make a profit.  

Nice project, priced way too high for me to buy anyway, so that's all I care about, lol.  I would rather rent a smaller, crappier place downtown than fork out the cash for that, but I am sure others would have a different lifestyle and capability than a lot of us peons like me.

[steve_o]

1 hour ago, GTR said:

You confuse deposits with sales. They each had 70-80% pre-sales, just many people walked away from their deposits during the great recession.  However, even during the great recession each project was able to complete more sales than the less than 1 unit per month the Brownstones has averaged...

And it could have been a project for me as I was quite interested in them when they were first announced. I wanted to move out of a highrise but stay downtown, so these were a perfect fit on paper.  Went to the launch party and everything.  I just thought the price (which was in my range nonetheless) was way to much for what they were offering in that location.  And they weren't enough of an emotional project (like Samsara) to justify overpaying that much.  

A built out Samsara unit is nearly double the price!?!?  Though I will give credit as 4/5 (80%) of the bare shells have sold in nearly the same timeframe.  

BTW - I'm not sure being a member of this forum since 2004 constitutes "jumping in".  I may not "jump in" often but rest assured I visit nearly every day.  

Overall excited about development downtown and happy to be part of a great project.  

BTW,  a few "cold hard facts":

FACT 1: Twenty four luxury downtown townhomes were purchased in the past 22 months (20 Brownstones/4 Samsura).

FACT 2: None of those buyers were GTR

[uncreativeusername]

3 hours ago, dcluley98 said:

Ya'll take this stuff way to seriously.  They are high priced, yes.  They look pretty nice so far, and there is not much comparable available that close to downtown.  I am pretty sure somebody will fork some cash for them when everything is finished.  If they have to drop the price a bit to get out early, I am sure they will still make a profit.  

Nice project, priced way too high for me to buy anyway, so that's all I care about, lol.  I would rather rent a smaller, crappier place downtown than fork out the cash for that, but I am sure others would have a different lifestyle and capability than a lot of us peons like me.

Seriously.  Is election year mania seeping into our beloved little forum?  

[GTR]

5 hours ago, prahaboheme said:

Do let us know when you have a cold, hard fact to "manipulate" the discussion with. 

People trying to manipulate the discussion are not relying on facts, just ignorant people on this board desperate for any growth in this burg. 

[GTR]

3 hours ago, steve_o said:

A built out Samsara unit is nearly double the price!?!?  Though I will give credit as 4/5 (80%) of the bare shells have sold in nearly the same timeframe.  

BTW - I'm not sure being a member of this forum since 2004 constitutes "jumping in".  I may not "jump in" often but rest assured I visit nearly every day.  

Overall excited about development downtown and happy to be part of a great project.  

BTW,  a few "cold hard facts":

FACT 1: Twenty four luxury downtown townhomes were purchased in the past 22 months (20 Brownstones/4 Samsura).

FACT 2: None of those buyers were GTR

Steve-O, your lack of a college education is showing. I know it is hard for someone to subject realism on here, but please don't insult people that know this business.  The sales have been lackluster so far and anyone with any knowledge in the business can see that.  Doesn't mean that they are bad products, just severely overpriced. I suppose I should congratulate you for selling 1 unit every two months of a place that borders the highway, dilapidated duplexes, a future dog poop mound and the projects.  

[nite owℓ]

10 hours ago, GTR said:

You confuse deposits with sales. They each had 70-80% pre-sales, just many people walked away from their deposits during the great recession.  However, even during the great recession each project was able to complete more sales than the less than 1 unit per month the Brownstones has averaged...

And it could have been a project for me as I was quite interested in them when they were first announced. I wanted to move out of a highrise but stay downtown, so these were a perfect fit on paper.  Went to the launch party and everything.  I just thought the price (which was in my range nonetheless) was way to much for what they were offering in that location.  And they weren't enough of an emotional project (like Samsara) to justify overpaying that much.  

This argument seems to have taken on a personal tone... did negotiations on a unit fall apart or was your offer declined or something?