Setting the Record Straight on the East Side of MI

[daniel nudnik]

I couldn't stand by and let these comments stay buried in the Minneapolis thread.

He is right.

[metrogrkid]

Metro Detroit gets a larger share of the money because it has five times more people than greater Grand Rapids.

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Dan:

I agree with you. Kudos. JUST GET YOUR NOMENCLATURE STRAIGHT. A "Metro Area" or "Metropolitan Area" is an urban comglomeration of 1-million or more residents. A "Greater Area" is an urban region with less than 1-million residents.

As the four-county GR region finally crossed the ONE-MILLION population mark back in 1997 and started to reap all the accolades and economic clout that comes with that, it would befit you in your truth-saying about Metro Detroit to also state the truth about the reality of West Michigan's hub being called Metro Grand Rapids. Michigan has TWO - recognize it!

[superNOVA]

Detroit proper is is a city with 900,000 citizens, many of whom are hardworking people [poor, rich, and middle class,] all of whom pay some of the highest taxes in the country. In addition to hosting one of the country's best art museums, the DIA, it is also home to a top-notch public university, Wayne State, as well as the nation's leading autmotive design program at the Center for Creative Studies Art School. Its symphony is one of the country's best.

Good for it. They also spend a hell of a lot more than the rest of the State. Yes there are 900,000 people in Detroit (an overstatement if I have ever seen one) but there are 9,000,000 in the rest of the State.

I don't have a problem with them getting a fair and EQUAL share but they do not. If you add up all of the federal and state money Detroit proper comesout ahead - furthermore, add in the non official money that is leached to that side of the State.

Granted, Michigan would not be Michigan without Detroit. I will not even bother to dispute that. However, it is horribly run and needs to be ta

ken over by the State government and the National Guard - plain and simple.  The people of Detroit have proven over the past 40 years that they cannot get their affairs in order.

Perhaps the money was "stolen" three decades ago because in 1965 there was no point in building a freeway through cornfields, 20 miles away from civilization, in rural Kent County. I'd contend that it's still pointless today - yet even sprawl lovers would have had trouble justifying it back then, given the fact that nobody lived anywhere near the South Belt corridor in the 1960s.

Actually there was a reason - the federal government was going to pay for most of it. Also, my numbers were adjusted for inflation - meaning we spend $500 million extra for the highway. I am guessing that if we would have spent the original $50 million or so in 1965 we could have used the recently spend $500 million on something else - LIKE SUSIDIZING ANOTHER PRO TEAMS STADIUM IN DETROIT. Or perhaps, bailing out the school systems around the State.

It is this lame - we can do it later even if the feds won't help attitude that is bankrupting the State. And sorry that viewpoint seems to only come from the East side of the State.

But let's assume Kent County got the South Belt back then. Do you honestly think Grand Rapids would be better off for it?

Not the point.  The point was, the immediate greed of the East side was enough to cost the State a half of a billion dollars in the long run.  No wonder Detroit is broke, they have no common fiscal sense.

Metro Detroit gets a larger share of the money because it has five times more people than greater Grand Rapids.

Problem is it is not proportional when all financing is added in. Furthermore, they have proven time and time again that they have no clue as to how to use it - if you ask me, they should get none by now.

Detroit needs some financial counseling.

And on and on, I am out of time.

[daniel nudnik]

A military occupation of Detroit to punish it for its bad self-government. My response to this will be my final word.

Democratic societies do not operate based on the principle of one group teaching another a lesson. In America, they operate by way of representatives and citizens negotiating with one another to create policy. To espouse the idea that the city and people of Detroit deserve to be directly and forcibly penalized by others reflects not just a disregard for the rights your neighbors, but also a distaste for the workings of democracy.

To press the point further, suppose Detroit were shut down, completely starved, locked out, do you honestly believe that the harm that would cause wouldn't reach you, a mere 150 miles away, living in a city whose economy is interdependent with the rest of the region?

It's like the King Solomon story in the bible. Nobody who loves something will allow it to be split in two.

[MJLO]

Ok I know it's a bit off topic, and im probabally going to be chastised for questioning Greater Grand Rapids population status. But in 2004 the census Bureau changed the way they measured metropolitan areas, thus making them more accurate to the immediate areas they serve. As it stood, Plainwell which is on the very bottom border of Allegan county and fifteen minutes away from Kalamazoo, was counted as part of the "Grand Rapids consolidated metropolitan statistical area. What resulted was a more realistic count of the actual amount of people that live in an urban area, basically where the city starts, where it ends, and not the corn fields of coopersville. So with that said, the ACTUAL population of the GRAND RAPIDS metropolitan area is, around 800,000. Which is consequently the number that you will see in Almanacs/ publications from 05' on. It's now called the Grand Rapids - Wyoming metroplex. With Muskegon, and Holland Areas becoming entities of there own.

[Rizzo]

^You are right about the MSA. Just give the 131 corridor until 2010-2015 to be built up. Accoring to some MSU study, Kalamazoo will be quite close to being included in our MSA or Combined MSA by then.

[snoogit]

^You are right about the MSA. Just give the 131 corridor until 2010-2015 to be built up. Accoring to some MSU  study, Kalamazoo will be quite close to being included in our MSA or Combined MSA by then.

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speaking of highways being built up, I96's development is creeping up to my house now its only two more exits, and its gonna hit me.

[joeDowntown]

Development on I96 is definitely pushing west. It was only 10-12 years ago that once you passed Alpine, you basically had the Meijer corporate headquarters and then nothing... Now development seems almost continuous until Marne.

Joe

speaking of highways being built up, I96's development is creeping up to my house now its only two more exits, and its gonna hit me.

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[rstravis]

Ok I know it's a bit off topic, and im probabally going to be chastised for questioning Greater Grand Rapids population status.

[snoogit]

Development on I96 is definitely pushing west. It was only 10-12 years ago that once you passed Alpine, you basically had the Meijer corporate headquarters and then nothing... Now development seems almost continuous until Marne.

Joe

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yeppers. fruitridge had that pyramid for a while, other then that.

[MJLO]

I think it's a much more accurate definition of the Metropolitan area. I tend to think of a city, by where the fields, and farms end, and where the city, and busy-ness begins. The four county culmination, gave the area now over 1.1 million people. Thats almost as many people that live in Greater Jacksonville FL, or in Louisville KY. Grand Rapids, given it's immediate suburbs, I'll give you the ones in Ottawa, and perhaps even Allegan county, are really about the size of a Metro Toledo, or Omaha. The thought that they would add in Ionia, or even Newaygo county is beyond obsurd. Those people have to drive, a good 20 minutes at least!, before they even hit suburban areas. I stick with my original thought. Holland, and Muskegon are large enough to represent there own little metropolitan areas, they even have there own little cluster of burbs. Regardless of what they share. In terms of media markets however, Grand Rapids, is still considered the number 38 market, and in that market is included Kzoo, BC, Musk, Holl, almost even Benton Harbor/St. Joe. I guess I just felt there were to many large pockets, of rural country, to Justify giving metro Grand Rapids the more than one million people status, however Western Michigan and Michigan's west coast, still retain that number.

[joeDowntown]

Rob,

I agree with you on the suburbs. Georgetown Twp, Wayland, Jamestown Twp, Hudsonville and all the cities that hug Kent County should be counted. Do they define borders only by county lines?

I know a lot of people from the lakeshore who work, dine and play in GR but I don't think I have ever met anyone from Portland that does the same. When I drive by Portland I either a) stop and get gas, beverages etc. or B) realize I am getting close to Lansing.

I grew up in Rockford, which is almost exactly the same distance from downtown as Wayland and I always considered myself from GR.

How often do they redraw the MSA's? Does anyone know?

Joe

Grand Rapids is an area which WAS NOT more accurately defined by the census bureau change.  It may have benefitted some cities and become more accurate in some ways. 

But I can point out two things about it:

Rob

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[Rizzo]

I know that to be included the county seat or the county period has to have a 25% commuting rate to the main city.

Mediak Market

^I know WODD TV 8's market extends to all the way to my girl's house in Charlotte, and as far as Jackson. This market has got to be in the 2 million range.