AC Hotel on West Main

[Spartan]

That's incorrect Spartan. The code prevents buildings over 4 stories within 60' of Main St. It also requires the building to have shop front the

entire length of the building fronting on Main St. which may not be the most ideal design for a hotel.

I have to agree with Westsider and declare that part of the code asinine. There are other parts that are asinine as well, but that's the only

part that would apply to this site.

 

Aha, you're right. I misread that part. So in a way that's actually better. All it means is that you have a 4-storey area fronting the street, then a 60' set back to allow anything higher. 

 

Does anyone remember the Hotel Franklin?

 

That front porch area isn't 60' deep, but the whole building was probably 60'wide on the front part. The same concept can easily be applied on the HJ site, and would not apply on the Even Rental site across from RJR.

 

The HJ block is 180' deep, so if the first 60' is limited to 4 floors, the next 120' can go much higher. They built a 12 storey hotel here in Charlotte on a lot that is 120'x120' (that includes a few floors of parking deck). My point is that it CAN be done.

[westsider28]

So the H-J had an article today that covered most of what we already have about the hotel situation.  The Marriott group talked about potentially adding an office building on more land back there, which I hadn't heard and which seems intriguing.  But I think the current plot of land is plenty for an urban hotel and urban office building (especially with a parking deck already nearby), so I don't buy their claim of needing more land for that.  They also mentioned being able to "package" a 150-room hotel with the 250-room Marriott for a 400-room "block" for events.  I can see the advantage of that in courting events and whatnot.

 

But personally, I still think the West Main option is the superior choice for the City because it's in the heart of DT, walkable to restaurants, and gives visitors a different location option.  I bet the Marriott guys are worried that it would instantly become more attractive than the Marriott for those very reasons.  The article makes it seem (as I suspected) like the City gov't is in an awkward situation here of having to choose a "winner," which will inevitably alienate the "losing" party.

 

What do you guys think about all this?

[spartanburgh]

I think your right Westsider. The City will likely have to offer both a great incentive package so neither is alienated and let the developers

make their move. I just hope the City does this in a way that leaves both parties committed to future development downtown. 

[roads-scholar]

So the H-J had an article today that covered most of what we already have about the hotel situation.  The Marriott group talked about potentially adding an office building on more land back there, which I hadn't heard and which seems intriguing.  But I think the current plot of land is plenty for an urban hotel and urban office building (especially with a parking deck already nearby), so I don't buy their claim of needing more land for that.  They also mentioned being able to "package" a 150-room hotel with the 250-room Marriott for a 400-room "block" for events.  I can see the advantage of that in courting events and whatnot.

 

But personally, I still think the West Main option is the superior choice for the City because it's in the heart of DT, walkable to restaurants, and gives visitors a different location option.  I bet the Marriott guys are worried that it would instantly become more attractive than the Marriott for those very reasons.  The article makes it seem (as I suspected) like the City gov't is in an awkward situation here of having to choose a "winner," which will inevitably alienate the "losing" party.

 

What do you guys think about all this?

First, I didn't know GDJ owned the H-J site.  Second, somebody will build a new hotel in downtown Spartanburg.  Who and where, nobody knows. 

 

I agree that West Main is the best location but sense there was a quid pro quo between the city and the new owners of the Marriott. 

 

Other thoughts?

[Spartan]

The West Main site would make the most sense from a downtown development standpoint.

 

The other hotel possibility behind the Marriott is intriguing though, and knowing that is a possibility, I can see the advantages of having additional hotel space adjacent to the conference center. That being said, while having the ability to host conferences is nice, it's been shown that they don't have that much impact to the local economy aside from the hotel itself. Think about conferences the you go to - most of them are relatively self-contained. Lunch is usually provided - and you might go out for dinner/drinks in the evening.

 

I think the site closer to Morgan Square would be more desirable from pretty much any angle you look at it. 1) It would likely be a boon to the downtown retail in the same way that the Hyatt was for Greenville. 2) People are within walking distance to downtown shops and restaurants, 3) they can still walk/bike/drive to the conference center. 4) It would add some apparent density to downtown and be more visible.

[spartanburgh]

It appears that Event rentals will go into a new retail space on W. Main St. behind Wakefield Buick on the corner of Branch St.

This will make way for the new Hotel to be constructed on the corner of W Main and Daniel Morgan Ave. This will delay the

hotel, but will make for a much better site than farther out W Main. Rumor is, ground will be broken in October for the Hotel.

[westsider28]

So the Event Rentals building would be new construction?  On the lot(s) that were bought by GDJ last year and cleared?  If so, I hope it's an attractive, relatively-urban building (unlike that Dollar General further out).

 

October groundbreaking for the hotel would be awesome!  And the good thing about being west of DM is that the 4-story height limit overlay does not apply there.  It's just DT-6, so they can build up to 10-stories (obviously it won't be that tall, but maybe 5-6 floors).  I wonder if they'd build a deck on the current parking lot behind this site.  We could use a deck in this part of downtown (especially with a new hotel).  Anyway, I hope this proposal comes through!

[spartanburgh]

Also, The new event rentals site is DT5, which means the building has to be at least 2 stories in height.

It will be interesting to see the plans for a 2 story retail building. Maybe an office on top?

[Sparkleman]

Where are you guys hearing this chatter about West Main getting the nod?

[westsider28]

Hotel discussions are heating up.  There was a lengthy closed-door meeting with City Council this evening.  Some highlights:

 

-Apparently the City is considering incentivizing the GDJ/OTO West Main hotel with the stipulation that it would not participate in economic incentives for another hotel within three years of completion – roughly five years from now. Obviously, Gibbs isn't happy with that.  Says let free market work.

 

-Gibbs group mentioned realigning Liberty Street to accommodate an office building along with hotel behind the Marriott. Gibbs also talked up buying the Marriott when no one else would (possibly a "you owe us" approach).  City said it would honor existing agreement made last year.

 

I agree with Gibbs that we shouldn't deter another development, but maybe OTO is unwilling to commit without that "protection".  Could we possibly support two new hotels in the next 5 years?  Who would be the tenant for the Gibbs office building?

 

Thoughts?  This is a lot of info to dig through, and definitely a difficult balancing act for the City.

[roads-scholar]

Hotel discussions are heating up.  There was a lengthy closed-door meeting with City Council this evening.  Some highlights:

 

-Apparently the City is considering incentivizing the GDJ/OTO West Main hotel with the stipulation that it would not participate in economic incentives for another hotel within three years of completion – roughly five years from now. Obviously, Gibbs isn't happy with that.  Says let free market work.

 

-Gibbs group mentioned realigning Liberty Street to accommodate an office building along with hotel behind the Marriott. Gibbs also talked up buying the Marriott when no one else would (possibly a "you owe us" approach).  City said it would honor existing agreement made last year.

 

I agree with Gibbs that we shouldn't deter another development, but maybe OTO is unwilling to commit without that "protection".  Could we possibly support two new hotels in the next 5 years?  Who would be the tenant for the Gibbs office building?

 

Thoughts?  This is a lot of info to dig through, and definitely a difficult balancing act for the City.

I still think the city probably owes Gibbs a favor for taking over the Marriott and believe they will do something to keep him a happy camper. 

[spartanburgh]

Both should be offered an equal package of incentives and let the market play out. Exclusives to development would

be a laughing matter in Cola, Gvl, Clt etc. Free market should determine the outcome of the hotel(s) development.

It wasn't too long ago that OTO's people scoffed at the idea of a hotel in Spartanburg, saying it was not a destination

town. Now they want an exclusive to build. Jimmy Gibbs should get the nod, although I believe the W. Main site is a

better choice for downtown.

[westsider28]

Yeah, I thought an exclusivity deal seemed odd.  And I agree both developers should be treated equally.  I guess it's good that we're pretty much assured a new hotel.  I do prefer the West Main site, but I'd like to know more about the office building Gibbs talked about.  To me, that's an intriguing twist.  Not sure if he's just saying that to get more leverage, but if it's true, that would be an extra plus for downtown.

 

Oh, and I saw this today:

This goes along with what spartanburgh posted about OTO's plans with respect to Event Rentals' relocation.

[drexel]

I agree that ALL should be treated equal. But, last year didn't the Gibbs' group have a deal with the city that stated the city could not sell any property behind the Marriott to another hotel developer for five years? Maybe different than incentives, but not what I would call free market. I also like the West Main location better for all the aforementioned reasons.          

[Sparkleman]

If Gibbs were to get the deal maybe he could renovate the Montgomery Building to use as his office building.

[westsider28]

Looks like we're probably going to get a hotel on West Main.  The agenda for Monday's City Council meeting is up and there's an item about the hotel.  Today the DRB approved the new Event Rentals building further out on West Main behind Wakefield.  The hotel at West Main and Daniel Morgan (developed by OTO) is to have no less than 100 rooms, have meeting and conference rooms, a fitness room, a pool, a bar, and will be a national brand such as Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, or Starwood.  There will be a minimal capital investment of $18 million, and it will be completed by September 30, 2017.  The City will provide streetscape improvements on Daniel Morgan Ave. and will institute a "Quite Zone" at the railroad crossing (like the Mayfair Mill).  The City will also not provide incentives to another hotel for 3 years after the completion of this hotel (which is stupid, but okay).  The City is also selling the parcel by the H-J lot for $1 for either parking or a building no less than 3 stories with 8,000 sq ft per floor (if I understand the agreement correctly).  This is all assuming Council approval.

 

Take a look at the agreement in the City Council agenda.  What do you think about it?  This is clearly the best location for a new hotel, but is it worth the concessions of this agreement?

[drexel]

Looks like we're probably going to get a hotel on West Main.  The agenda for Monday's City Council meeting is up and there's an item about the hotel.  Today the DRB approved the new Event Rentals building further out on West Main behind Wakefield.  The hotel at West Main and Daniel Morgan (developed by OTO) is to have no less than 100 rooms, have meeting and conference rooms, a fitness room, a pool, a bar, and will be a national brand such as Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, or Starwood.  There will be a minimal capital investment of $18 million, and it will be completed by September 30, 2017.  The City will provide streetscape improvements on Daniel Morgan Ave. and will institute a "Quite Zone" at the railroad crossing (like the Mayfair Mill).  The City will also not provide incentives to another hotel for 3 years after the completion of this hotel (which is stupid, but okay).  The City is also selling the parcel by the H-J lot for $1 for either parking or a building no less than 3 stories with 8,000 sq ft per floor (if I understand the agreement correctly).  This is all assuming Council approval.

 

Take a look at the agreement in the City Council agenda.  What do you think about it?  This is clearly the best location for a new hotel, but is it worth the concessions of this agreement?

 

 

Great location for downtown. Should also help Indigo Hall folks market weddings/special events. But do not like the 3 year part of the incentive. Another related subject that would help downtown hotels. The auditorium and Barnett Park need to start booking entertainment that actually draws people.     

[Spartan]

I couldn't get that link to work, so here is the link to the agendas section of the City's website. Feb 23 is the date. http://www.cityofspartanburg.org/city-council/agendas

 

In general, it looks like the City is literally doing everything they can to give this site to the developer on a golden platter.

 

The City is going to "donate" $750k towards creating a quite zone for the railroad. In order to do that, they have to install "quad" railroad crossing gates and flasher signals at Henry Street and West Main - which means 2 more arms at each intersection making it impossible to drive across. That's pretty generous in-and-of-itself, and it would benefit residents all along the corridor (Cleveland Heights, "Northside/Spartan Heights," Hampton Heights, etc. I'm skeptical of them justifying it by using future net revenue (presumably by some combination of sales tax and property tax from the hotel??) to pay for the expense - but if that's how they have to do it then so be it.

 

I don't care for item #2 at all: (The City will) Provide its best efforts to designate the project site as a Multi-County Industrial/Business Park in order to achieve a 50% reduction in the incremental real property taxes paid by the new development. This abatement would be in place for 20 years.

 

That's kind of BS if you ask me. They would be getting out of 50% of property tax increases over the next 20 years. Taxes in Spartanburg aren't that high so I can't imagine it's that much of a savings.

[hub-city]

I agree with Spartan about the multi/county junk.  Let them pay proper taxes like everyone else.  I was also worried about the 3 yr. stipulation, but it doesn't appear to apply to the hotel proposed by Johnson's group.  They made a deal in April, and the city will abide by that agreement.

 

I also know that it's just across the street, but I was hoping for it to be located on the HJ site.

[westsider28]

Spartan, thanks for the new link.  Not sure why mine died.  The City seems to bend over backwards for anything GDJ-related as a rule (for better or for worse).

 

The H-J site is a slightly better location, but I obviously this site is much more "development-ready."  Plus the item about the City selling the slice of land near the H-J parking lot seems to suggest there could be some redevelopment plans at the H-J site in the next few years.  I think City-financed improvements on public right-of-ways is pretty standard (that $ figure includes streetscaping on DM Ave, not just RR-related improvements).

 

This project appears to be moving quite fast.  I wonder when we'll hear about the brand (I've heard rumors of both a Marriott brand and a Hilton brand, so who knows).  I also hope we'll see renderings pretty soon.  Would love to see some ground-floor retail/restaurant space...

 

(Also, here's an H-J article about the project agreement.)

[spartanburgh]

Yeah, if the City could offer this type incentive to CH2M Hill and the County offer up incentives, I can't help

but think that we could get them Downtown Spartanburg in that new 3 story building mentioned above or

equivalent.

[westsider28]

We're very close to getting a 2nd downtown hotel, on West Main.  City Council just voted unanimously to approve first reading of the development agreement with OTO.  A second-reading approval is needed at the next meeting (in 2 weeks) to finalize the agreement. 

 

The item restricting incentives for another hotel for 3 years after completion is in there, but that does not mean another hotel couldn't be developed (just no City help, outside of the existing land agreement with Gibbs as previously mentioned).

 

A few interesting notes in the article: the new hotel is expected to bring in 30,000 annual guests (not sure how that compares to the Marriott), and assuming final approval, OTO officials are expected to release more details about the project, including the brand and architectural renderings, in the coming weeks.

[hub-city]

Awesome news!!

[Spartan]

That's pretty exciting. I'm not all that concerned about the 3-year moratorium. It's basically the City Council saying that they think the Main Street site is more beneficial towards building up the downtown area. Further, unless this hotel is wildly successful, I can't imagine that another hotel will be in the works in the next five years. There's only so much capacity/demand for downtown hotels, and the last thing we want or need is for one to come in and then fail.

[westsider28]

Spartan, I agree that there would likely be a gap in hotel development that long anyway.  It took 12 years between the Marriott opening and this.  Hopefully our next DT hotel won't require incentives anyway (or fewer).

 

There's another H-J article about the hotel being likely to spur development on the west end of DT.  It also has a few slightly updated details: 30,000-35,000 visitors per year, $20 million investment (Marriott cost $50M), and 100-120 rooms (each up a bit from earlier comments).  It also mentions the site being 3 parcels totaling 2.5 acres, which would include the parking lot behind Event Rentals (which I didn't realize).  Wonder if they'll build a small deck or underground parking.  Hope the building has a relatively small footprint within that.  I'm keeping my fingers crossed for 5 floors.

 

Finally, the article has a quote on the potential brand, "The indication they've given the city is that it is going to be nothing like anything that exists in this market currently and potentially anything in the state.”  I've heard rumors of an AC Hotel by Marriott which would be one of just a few in the US so far.  Guess we'll find out (relatively) soon!